Bills vs. DBGT...

Originally posted by Kento
There isn't very many big strength feats anyway.

In Z, base Goku outright stated that he would be unable to move with 10 tons of training weight on each extremity. This makes absolutely NO sense considering the mere shockwaves generated by his punches can shatter mountains. In most cases the brute lifting strength of the Z warriors doesn't seem to match-up with their strength-intensive battle feats. Chalk it up to Akira's laziness. /shrug

Originally posted by NemeBro
In terms of events hey man sure.

But in terms of powerscaling and all that gay shit? Not necessarily.

There are strength feats in Z better than the ones in GT for example.

Doesn't SSJ4 Goku lift a city? I can't remember better in Z.

Gohan as a child destroyed the Saiyan pod.

The same pod that withstood Nappa's super dooper blast of death.

^ Heck, look at the damage kid Goku caused when he turned into an Oozaru the first time:
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16725231_1.png]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16725232_2.png]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16725233_3.png]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16725234_4.png]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16725235_5.png]
[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/16725236_6.png]
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It's hard to imagine anything less than a cl. 100 character smashing the bejesus out of a stone castle like that, as well as throwing large sections of the castle a great distance at great speed.

...And back then Goku was so weak that even the PL of his Oozaru form was a scant 100. :/

But do you think 21st tournament Gokou normal form could do the same thing? As his power level then would be higher than his monkey form at that point in time.

The class 40 thing is honestly just Toriyama being an idiot.

Remember Goku throwing giant Piccolo?

How much would giant Piccolo weigh?

Originally posted by Kento
But do you think 21st tournament Gokou normal form could do the same thing? As his power level then would be higher than his monkey form at that point in time.

I also hate to beat a dead horse to death, but I'm sure you guys remember this feat:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2161/kidgokupusing200tonboul.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8127/dbc0705.jpg
Even if that boulder was one of the most lightweight types of stone on earth, it would still require>>cl. 40 strength to push it-- especially when you factor in the added friction resistance of pushing it on the ground.

Originally posted by Galan007
I also hate to beat a dead horse to death, but I'm sure you guys remember this feat:
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2161/kidgokupusing200tonboul.jpg
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8127/dbc0705.jpg
Even if that boulder was one of the most lightweight types of stone on earth, it would still require>>cl. 40 strength to push it-- especially when you factor in the added friction resistance of pushing it on the ground.

Depends on the friction coefficient but it could actually require more force to push the rock than it does to overcome gravity (pick it up directly opposite of the pull of gravity). Also, most rocks out in the open like that are limestone or granite (just got done with a geology class, lulz). So use the density of those to come up with an estimate.

Did someone come up with a volume estimate? If they did, then just multiply the volume by the density of limestone and granite to get a decent and accurate range for the mass.

Originally posted by Kento
How much would giant Piccolo weigh?

I wanna know, myself.

I was pointing out the fact it was Oozaru state, power level doesn't equal somebodies strength levels. Even in that scan, Roshi has a higher power level than Gokou and is unable to actually have ever pushed that rock.

Originally posted by Kento
How much would giant Piccolo weigh?

Per the Daizenshuu, Goku is 5'7-- which, after some rough scaling, puts Piccolo's height at somewhere between 30-35' tall, even with his knees crouched. So lets say he is 40' tall when fully erect.

At his standard height, Piccolo appears to be about a foot taller than Goku:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16727576/Dragon_Ball_-_V13C07_-_Page_07.png.html
Which means Piccolo increased his stature by about 6x.

The square cube law states his volume would increase by the cube of the multiplicative. So if he really did get 6x larger, since 6 cubed is 216, you'd multiply that by 113kg(Piccolo's estimated weight) and get 24,408kg, or about 26 tons.

Mind you, that is just a rough estimate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Did someone come up with a volume estimate? If they did, then just multiply the volume by the density of limestone and granite to get a decent and accurate range for the mass.

Originally posted by Kento
I was pointing out the fact it was Oozaru state, power level doesn't equal somebodies strength levels. Even in that scan, Roshi has a higher power level than Gokou and is unable to actually have ever pushed that rock.

...Yet Goku couldn't lift a mere 40 tons years later when his PL was in the MILLIONS? Akira is just a 'tard at times, plain and simple.

But there is no way to know if his weight increased so much.

I'm not saying that Gokou unable to lift ten tons with on arm isn't wrong. I'm just saying just because Oozaru Gokou had a pl of 100 doesn't mean anyone with the same power level doesn't mean they can replicate same feats.

Originally posted by Kento
But there is no way to know if his weight increased so much.

I'm not saying that Gokou unable to lift ten tons with on arm isn't wrong. I'm just saying just because Oozaru Gokou had a pl of 100 doesn't mean anyone with the same power level doesn't mean they can replicate same feats.

Anyway, this is all secondary to feats like kicking Frieza through mountains and islands while holding back. A sub-40 tonner isn't doing that.

Goku struggled with 100 x Earth's gravity guys.

His body would have been far under 100 tons there.

That's not something easily ignored as that was such a big part of the story leading up to the Namek.

a.) that was during the Frieza saga.
b.) he wasn't struggling with said gravity by the time he arrived on Namek.
c.) he was kicking Frieza through mountains and islands while holding back. Again: a sub-40 tonner isn't doing that.
d) the Buu-era is when he supposedly couldn't lift 40 tons-- and by then his power was many orders of magnitude beyond what it was in the Frieza saga.

Any way you cut it, Goku being unable to lift 40 tons is write-offable nonsense, given some of his other feats.

Goku has no real great strength feats of note outside of filler.(pushing apart a small plateau against Kid Buu while in SSJ2) and GT (lifting half a city with great struggle from an unknown distance underground in SSJ4).

He struggled with 100x Earth's gravity leading up the Frieza, and even before then, when he was much weaker during his fight with Vegeta on Earth, they were still breaking mountains and shit.

They've been doing that kind of collateral damage forever. It does not mean anything in particular regarding their actual lifting capability.

Some fictions display the relation of AOE effect strikes and strength differently than others. (For example, a character like Kratos is much stronger than Akuma for instance, yet has no AOE behind his punches whereas Akuma has great demonstrations of AOE.)

His struggling with 40 tons strapped to his body at base is canon, and the most clear cut case of strength that we can point to. It is also greater than the 100x Earth's gravity thing he struggled with during his trip to Namek, so it still checks out timeline wise. Though some fans don't like it because its not as great a jump in strength as they would have expected.

It just means physical strength doesn't increase that much.

The mere shockwaves generated by the Z fighters physical blows can(and have) destroyed entire mountain ranges.

It requires billions of times more force to destroy an object indirectly in this manner, than it does to destroy it directly. It would be like hitting a punching bag in your garage so hard that the forces released from said blow spread outward and disintegrated your entire house.

This is similar to Goku punching Frieza with such force that he was sent hurling completely through a mountain/island. The forces at play were immensely beyond the capability of a sub-40 tonner.

Showings like these are strength feats whether you want to think of them as such or not.

They aren't clear cut strength feats. Those are just flashy effects of fight, that while are not unimportant, are far less important than direct statements and showings of lifting power, especially ones that were a great part of the story in an arc. Goku struggled with 100x Earth's gravity initially, in which he would have weighed less than 10 tons.

Vegeta later struggled with like 300x Earth's gravity despite being many multiple times stronger than Goku would have been on the way to Namek.

Goku then later struggled with 40 tons strapped to him, which would have been almost equivalent to 600x Earth's gravity.

Vegeta then later made a claim against Pui Pui that maybe under 500x Earth's gravity, that he would have struggled. That's many years passed from Namek, and still only a few multiples of difference in pure strength.

DBZ already made the distinction when dealing with actual numbers vs the side effects of a fight.

Toriyama is dumb. Blame him, but he made his own statements and showings.

Still, many characters have AOE far greater than what their actual lifting capabilities would suggest. Most often in anime.

So basically, cling to a single off-handed statement, and disregard any/all battle feats in which the strength-intensive forces generated were vastly greater than the implied 'strength cap'? Sorry, but I can't do that.

Even as a child, when his PL was in the 100's, Goku was showcasing > cl. 40 strength feats.

As an adult, when his PL was in the millions, Goku became so powerful that he could strike a fixed object(his opponent) and the shockwaves/forces generated by that punch could destroy mountains several hundred yards away. He became so powerful that he could kick an opponent into a mountain, and that mountain would be shredded like cheap tissue paper. Feats like these need...require... far more than 40 tons of force. Simple.

I am in no way trying to place Goku remotely close to strength Gods like Superman or Hulk. However, 40 tons is an absolute joke that no one in their right mind can possibly take seriously, given the plethora of feats to the contrary.

[edit]
But yeah, I agree that Akira was a complete idiot at times. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
So basically, adhere to SEVERAL cohesive statements that line up timeline wise, and disregard any/all battle feats in which only through fan extrapolation can lead to greater than demonstrated strength levels.

Fixed.

Yes.

Goku struggled with 100x Earth's gravity. That's his strength level at that time. It is 100% canon and 100% valid as he has no confirmed strength feats of clear cut manner before that to invalidate it, and because it was a very crucial part of the story leading up to the Namek saga. This automatically overrides any fan extrapolated strength calculations that could be made even as far back as Kaioken Goku vs Scouter Vegeta. They were breaking mountains indirectly even then. Is that as important as Goku's actual concrete strength feat days/weeks later? Absolutely not.

Collateral damage in such a scale is just a mundanely common trope in anime. It does not mean that you can simply go by the real world logic of indirect destruction requiring X amount more force to accomplish and run wild with it. The number you use is 'billions' of times more, word, that's obvious enough, but it is not applicable here at all. Unfortunately your fan extrapolation cannot be used to say that Goku is at least billions of times stronger than what he showed, even when what he showed was a big plot point of an arc, and then backed up several more times in the proceeding timeline.

Goku has no confirmed strength feats above being strapped to 40 tons dating back to Dragon Ball. None. Only through fan extrapolations on say a feat like flipping a giant piccolo can we come to that conclusion. But again, that's not confirmed. Powerscaling from way back when is simply not that important.

Goku's power level was only in the double digit thousands range when he started his 100x Earth's training and struggled greatly (I'd estimate he was at 30,000 then, seeing as Vegeta was like 18,000 on Earth). Vegeta's power level when he struggled with 300x Earth's gravity would have been breaking into the low millions, (since he would at least have been stronger than Frieza's second form, which also broke 1 million). Millions vs Thousands. Huge gap. Still an insignificant strength difference in comparison. Vegeta specifically said he should be able to triple what Goku was capable of and Bulma's dad freaked out, and specifically told Vegeta that he'd weigh like 18 tons under that gravity and would barely be able to move, and he predicted correctly seeing as Vegeta struggled like hell.

Trying to powerscale all the way back to DB doesn't really hold water when its already established there that the strength gains are nowhere near proportional. It's also older work to, and thus not as relevant.

TLDR; Trying to say indirect collateral damage showings puts strength levels billions of times above what they show in clear cut statements and feats just doesn't work. You're working with a common trope in anime in the first place, where collateral damage often is wildly disproportionate to actual physical strength feats. Tropes are often dumb.