Originally posted by KentoIt was first form Frieza that Tarble compared Abo and Kado to-- it couldn't have been anything else. Remember, Frieza outright stated that not even King Vegeta himself(who was [obviously] older than Vegeta and Tarble) ever got to see his first transformed state-- let alone his final form. Heck, Frieza implied that no one aside from his family had ever got to see his final form before Namek.
But with that movie it also proves Tarble is canon. Who Goten and Trunks fought Freeza level beings. And while it just says as strong as Freeza, it is impossible to be first form Freeza, because 50x his first form doesn't come anywhere close to his full power.
Originally posted by KentoNot really. #18 made a few comments that the boys(posing as "Mighty Mask"😉 were very strong, but they never "matched" her by any stretch. N00b SSJ Vegeta, for example, did much better against her then the kids did.
And at ssj they are a match for 18.
Originally posted by KentoThink about it...
It just throws everything out of wack. Because if Gokou isn't freeza level 17 years after Freeza, then Cell isn't really that much more powerful than Freeza. And his solar system boasting really goes down hill.
When Gohan ascended to a SSJ2, the other Z fighters were completely awestruck... They were literally marveling at such a massive boost in power. However, Gohan's PL 'only' doubled when he became a SSJ2. Based on that, I think we can assume no other single power-gains made during the Cell-saga(ie. the jump from a standard/n00b SSJ, to an ASSJ, to a FPSSJ) were anywhere near 2x. It seems like many people have a preconceived notion that the Saiyans' PLs had to have increased by many orders of magnitude during this saga-- simply put: this is not true. Granted, when you're dealing with power levels in the billions, it's easy to forget that a PL increase of just 500,000(as an example) is still extremely massive-- it is, essentially, the difference between an average human being and base Frieza. Gargantuan, really.
Anyway, here's what we know:
Super-Perfect Cell~SSJ2 Gohan 2x>[roughly] Perfect Cell>FPSSJ Goku/Gohan>ASSJ Vegeta/Trunks>>2nd Stage Cell>>#16=Imperfect Cell>>Kamiccolo=#17>#18>>n00b SSJ Vegeta/Goku>>100% Frieza.
So yes, Cell still was vastly more powerful than Frieza. /shrug
Originally posted by KentoKing Kai also says no. 😊
Feats say so, Bills say no
Originally posted by Galan007Gokou only knew Final Form Freeza, and Vegeta also knew Freeza's final power level, and neither one say anything about them being lower then Freeza. Just that Freeza is weak.
It was first form Frieza that Tarble compared Abo and Kado to-- it couldn't have been anything else. Remember, Frieza outright stated that not even King Vegeta himself(who was [obviously] older than Vegeta and Tarble) ever got to see his first transformed state-- let alone his final form. Heck, Frieza implied that no one aside from his family had ever got to see his final form before Namek.Not really. #18 made a few comments that the boys(posing as "Mighty Mask"😉 were very strong, but they never "matched" her by any stretch. N00b SSJ Vegeta, for example, did much better against her then the kids did.
Think about it...
When Gohan ascended to a SSJ2, the other Z fighters were completely awestruck... They were literally marveling at such a massive boost in power. However, Gohan's PL 'only' doubled when he became a SSJ2. Based on that, I think we can assume no other single power-gains made during the Cell-saga(ie. the jump from a standard/n00b SSJ, to an ASSJ, to a FPSSJ) were anywhere near 2x. It seems like many people have a preconceived notion that the Saiyans' PLs had to have increased by many orders of magnitude during this saga-- simply put: this is not true. Granted, when you're dealing with power levels in the billions, it's easy to forget that a PL increase of just 500,000(as an example) is still extremely massive-- it is, essentially, the difference between an average human being and base Frieza. Gargantuan, really.
Anyway, here's what we know:
Super-Perfect Cell~SSJ2 Gohan 2x>[roughly] Perfect Cell>FPSSJ Goku/Gohan>ASSJ Vegeta/Trunks>>2nd Stage Cell>>#16=Imperfect Cell>>Kamiccolo=#17>#18>>n00b SSJ Vegeta/Goku>>100% Frieza.So yes, Cell still was vastly more powerful than Frieza. /shrug
King Kai also says no. 😊
They were able to tag her at base, and hurt her. That's more than someone at Freeza's level could do. 18 > Future 18 > SSJ Future Trunks first visit > Mecha Freeza. And Future Trunks wasn't able to so much as budge his futures 18 or hurt her with blasts. So there is that too.
But it's not a huge enough leap to go from planet destroying, to galaxy destroying. When Cell Saga's characters would literally be only 10x stronger.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Maybe Bills was sensing Goku's energy at it's lowest. I mean, Future Trunks was already way more powerful then Frieza as a Super Saiyan the moment he appeared right?
Originally posted by KentoGoku and Vegeta knew what the PLs of ALL Frieza's transformed states were; so Goku stating that Frieza "wasn't much of a foe, in hindsight" gives us absolutely no clue as to which specific transformed state he was referencing.
Gokou only knew Final Form Freeza, and Vegeta also knew Freeza's final power level, and neither one say anything about them being lower then Freeza. Just that Freeza is weak.
We know for a fact, however, that Tarble could have only been using base Frieza as a gauge, because he would have never encountered any of Frieza's other transformations.
Originally posted by KentoIn the manga, they never tagged OR hurt #18... And they most certainly didn't "match" her by any stretch of the word. Like I said before: Vegeta, as a n00b SSJ, did WAY better against #18 then the boys ever managed, yet he still never came remotely close to "matching" her.
They were able to tag her at base, and hurt her. That's more than someone at Freeza's level could do. 18 > Future 18 > SSJ Future Trunks first visit > Mecha Freeza. And Future Trunks wasn't able to so much as budge his futures 18 or hurt her with blasts. So there is that too.
Aside from that, comparing the 2 versions of Trunks is faulty. Future Trunks was from a divergent/alternate reality, in which he never even became a SSJ until much later in life than 'mainstream' Trunks... They weren't the same character, is what I'm saying.
Originally posted by KentoBase Frieza effortlessly destroyed a planet with his index finger-- clearly he could have destroyed much more than a singular planet had he bothered powering up... And his final form was 22,541.5% more powerful than his base form, so there's that. /shrug
But it's not a huge enough leap to go from planet destroying, to galaxy destroying. When Cell Saga's characters would literally be only 10x stronger.
Anyway, Cell's boast is just that: a boast. There is no way to definitively prove or disprove it... Never has been.
Originally posted by TheGodKillerEven the Z fighters can sense when someone is suppressing their power-- and I would assume that Bills' ability to sense ki is no less than equal to theirs... Especially when you consider that King Kai(who is intimately familiar with Goku's power) agreed with Bills' assessment.
You might be onto something here. When one of Freiza's henchmen tried to check base Trunk's PL, the number was in the single or double digits. That's what made them so cocky as to try and take on him on their own.
KK's statement is what solidifies the scene, imo.
Originally posted by Galan007Tarble wouldn't of encountered Freeza in any of his incarnations. Tarble was sent away as a baby. And not to even take over a planet.
Goku and Vegeta knew what the PLs of ALL Frieza's transformed states were; so Goku stating that Frieza "wasn't much of a foe, in hindsight" gives us absolutely no clue as to which specific transformed state he was referencing.We know for a fact, however, that Tarble could have only been using base Frieza as a gauge, because he would have never encountered any of Frieza's other transformations.
In the manga, they never tagged OR hurt #18... And they most certainly didn't "match" her by any stretch of the word. Like I said before: Vegeta, as a n00b SSJ, did WAY better against #18 then the boys ever managed, yet he still never came remotely close to "matching" her.
Aside from that, comparing the 2 versions of Trunks is faulty. Future Trunks was from a divergent/alternate reality, in which he never even became a SSJ until much later in life than 'mainstream' Trunks... They weren't the same character, is what I'm saying.
Base Frieza effortlessly destroyed a planet with his index finger-- clearly he could have destroyed much more than a singular planet had he bothered powering up... And his final form was 22,541.5% more powerful than his base form, so there's that. /shrug
Anyway, Cell's boast is just that: a boast. There is no way to definitively prove or disprove it... Never has been.
Even the Z fighters can sense when someone is suppressing their power-- and I would assume that Bills' ability to sense ki is no less than equal to theirs... Especially when you consider that King Kai(who is intimately familiar with Goku's power) agreed with Bills' assessment.
KK's statement is what solidifies the scene, imo.
Really? I thought the battle between them in the manga and anime were similar. Except the brief ssj fighting they did against her when she split them. Still Trunks' Final Flash was dangerous to her, which is enough to put them in her ballpark at ssj as it wasn't a charged up attack.
Power Levels though are easy to compare. Future Trunks even admits that 17 and 18 in his time were weaker than 17 and 18 in present.
They've not shown to sense when summon is suppressing their power. They can just sense ki. Vegeta and Gohan never even noticed Goten and Trunks power levels. Or anything about Kaioshin and Kibito. And Fat Buu was sensed weaker and Gohan didn't realize it until he slaughters Dabura.
Originally posted by KentoNah, all we know is that Tarble was sent away because he "couldn't fight"-- it was never stated that he was sent away as a baby. In fact, considering King Vegeta had obviously gauged Tarble's fighting prowess(which is why he was banished in the first place), it's safe to assume he was old enough for the Saiyans to [try] begin teaching him some fighting skills... And if he was old enough to learn about MA, he was old enough to learn about base Frieza's power.
Tarble wouldn't of encountered Freeza in any of his incarnations. Tarble was sent away as a baby. And not to even take over a planet.
Originally posted by KentoIn the manga, the kids and #18 grappled a bit, but the brats never landed any distinct blows.
Really? I thought the battle between them in the manga and anime were similar. Except the brief ssj fighting they did against her when she split them. Still Trunks' Final Flash was dangerous to her, which is enough to put them in her ballpark at ssj as it wasn't a charged up attack.
And #18 didn't say the battle was dangerous "to her", she just said: "this is dangerous" after the kids carelessly launched an energy ball at her that could've killed everyone in the stadium. Their carelessness is why she opted to end the battle then and there. Granted, #18 made a few comments regarding how powerful the kids were, but they still weren't even close to her level. Vegeta was more powerful than them as a n00b SSJ, from what we saw.
Originally posted by KentoThere's no way to compare the two versions of Trunks, as we have no common denominator between them. Using #18 as a gauge doesn't work for reasons I've already mentioned.
Power Levels though are easy to compare. Future Trunks even admits that 17 and 18 in his time were weaker than 17 and 18 in present.
Originally posted by KentoI'm saying the Z fighters can sense when a being is suppressing their power in whatever form they're in. For example, this is how Vegeta knew SSJ3 Goku could defeat Kid Buu at full power, despite never seeing Goku reach full power as a SSJ3.
They've not shown to sense when summon is suppressing their power. They can just sense ki. Vegeta and Gohan never even noticed Goten and Trunks power levels. Or anything about Kaioshin and Kibito. And Fat Buu was sensed weaker and Gohan didn't realize it until he slaughters Dabura.
Originally posted by Kento
They've not shown to sense when summon is suppressing their power. They can just sense ki. Vegeta and Gohan never even noticed Goten and Trunks power levels. Or anything about Kaioshin and Kibito. And Fat Buu was sensed weaker and Gohan didn't realize it until he slaughters Dabura.
http://images.wikia.com/dragonball/images/c/c8/1Kili50000BP%28VJump%29.jpg
Well, is this says what I've been told Gokou hasn't gotten any stronger at base or super saiyan since Freeza to Buu saga. And Yakon's power level is 40 million. And 15 million is the min power level to destroy a planet. Because 1 kili = 50 thousand.
But we know that is incorrect... All of it.
Base(and SSJ) Goku absolutely became more powerful from the Frieza saga to Buu saga. And 15 million is not the minimum PL required to destroy a planet, as base Frieza(PL=530,000) was able to destroy a planet effortlessly.
So either that scan is grossly incorrect, or whoever translated that scan is grossly incorrect.
Its from Vjump, same issue with the Gogeta, and Broli, and Cooler power levels so take that what you will.
But it is clearly saying something about kili because its showing the Gokou's power level being 3,000 kili above the 1 and 50000
Though that's not saying Gokou was fully powered up, as he didn't do that til killing yakon by overload.
And 300 kili is stated in the Daizenshuu to be what is needed to destroy a planet, maybe it means outright vaporize like Kid Buu did, not crack, and destroy like Freeza did.
Originally posted by Kento
Its from Vjump, same issue with the Gogeta, and Broli, and Cooler power levels so take that what you will.
I believe that was determined to be an unsubstantiated "scan." Someone went down the scan and showed why it was a clear fake. It was a good one...but bad enough that any Japanese speaker would lol.
Originally posted by KentoAlways thought the PL they listed for final form Cooler was ridiculous. 470m? Lol, give me a break. We know final form Cooler was more powerful than 100% Frieza, but still much less powerful than n00b SSJ Goku, whose canon PL was only 150m. That said, Cooler should fall somewhere between 130-140m.
Its from Vjump, same issue with the Gogeta, and Broli, and Cooler power levels so take that what you will.
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Either way, if that guide actually says what you believe it says, then it is flat-out/unquestionably wrong, per established canon.
