Was busy. Let's continue.
Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, you are so mad. Relax. 👆
Lol. Irony. Who started the actual name calling, slinging around 'retarded' as a self-evident get out of jail free card regarding the other's view point? Certainly you were, once you realized you weren't getting your way, you stopped trying to expound on a point, just made circular statements that were already thoroughly countered, and rested on your imagined high horse in a debate and took to the aforementioned, lazy 'retard' refrains, as if that's going to take care of your work. I was trying to be civil until you came to that juncture.
Once more: in order to destroy a mountain directly, one must exert enough physical force to destroy said mountain. If you don't agree with this, then you are retarded-- I literally cannot dumb it down any further. That said, the strength/force required to destroy a mountain is undeniably in excess of what a sub-40 tonner is capable of producing. Simple logic is simple.
I'm sorry, but from your words here it would seem you were of the
delusion that you were making some novel, uncharted and unconsidered point with this tangent.
"lolz indirectly destroying things takes billions of times more force lolz"
Sorry to be a downer but this is not some profound, or even bright comment to make. That is extremely basic shit. There's nothing eye-brow raising or game-changing about these when it comes to considerations of their strength. The status quo has remained this way for years and these points which you've brought up have been discussed ad-nauseum across countless boards and they've already recounted and filed and made sense of within the universe and they do not come to the conclusion that you do.
They are simply categorized as feats of destructive capability, not pure feats of lifting/pressing/pushing strength. Yes, those distinctions are very important to make when there are story elements that make it clear that they are necessary to make. I.E. Your fan extrapolations are bunk. I've delved into the physics argument side of things thoroughly, a lot more than you have, be sure of that. So please get off that high horse, as though these basic physics claims are some unbeatable trump card of because of some amateur "LOLITSPHYSICS" stance. This is something that I would argue on the DBZ's behalf, if there wasn't already conflicting information that takes a higher priority. More on this to come, as well as your over-simplification of the physics here.
You can cling to 2 or 3 lulz-worthy showings if you like. I'll stick with the dozen+ showings that overtly contradict your opinion, though...
Lol. You keep changing goal posts on this point. First I was 'clinging' to a 'single off-handed statement'. And now its '2 or 3 lulzworthy' feats that don't count. You clearly thought that Goku's 40 ton struggling was a massive outlier low feat, but its a
feat that lines up extremely consistently with other confirmed, fully calculated by dialog strength feats from throughout the series, and is in fact his best confirmed lifting feat ever.
Let us put it to rest here, and now with these supposedly 'lulzy 2 or 3 showings', all in sequence.
1. Goku struggled with 10x Earth's gravity initially on King Kai's planet. He could still walk, but it took a humorous amount of
effort. And before that? Goku and Piccolo used weighted clothing, when they took it off against Raditz, their power levels increased immensely. Like Goku jumped from a PL 330 to a little over 400.
This weighted clothing training thing started from way back in Dragon Ball, where the weight for Goku's clothes (his undershirt, boots, and wristbands) were estimated by Tien to be a total of....250 lbs. Proof: http://mangawall.com/manga/dragon-ball/177/11
So yeah, before he left King Kai's planet, Goku used to be wearing weighted clothing that was almost twice his own weight, and in
addition to his own weight with them on, he was a total of near 3x his weight, which was still more than enough to suppress his power level by like 25% against Raditz.
Now. Tell me this. How. The ****. Is wearing 250 lbs going to be any sort of burden if according to you, Goku was already greater than class 40 back in dragon ball? 40 tons. That's 80,000 lbs. 250 lbs is 0.3 % of that. Not even 1%. It would be more impressive relative to strength levels, for me to wear a 2 lb kitten on my person at all times.
2. After Goku mastered 10x Earth's gravity, and the saiyan battle on Earth was over. Goku was training in gravity in his ship on the way to Namek. He went up to 100x Earth's Gravity. He was stated to be at least 6 tons at this gravity.
3. Vegeta insisted on training under 300x Earth's gravity to triple what Goku did, this was when they were training for the Androids.
Dr. Briefs stated he'd weigh over 18 tons and wouldn't be able to move. Vegeta indeed struggled mightily with his 18+ ton body. This is despite the fact that he had already broken the 1 million power level two years ago when he was still on Namek (after Dende healed him), so would have been even stronger by now, probably at least tripled. And yet Goku's power level was only in the low double digit thousands when he started his 100x G training, and only had a base of 90,000 once he finished it. (he was weaker than Ginyu in base, and had to resort to Kaioken to better the latter's power level).
4. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber. The training area had 10x Earth's gravity. Goku stated he already went there before as a kid when he trained with Kami and Popo and could not handle it back then. Goku and Vegeta had already trained under 100x and 300x Earth's gravity by now respectively, for short bursts of time, but obviously Goku felt that one full year of non-stop training under the 10x g gravity (as well as the harsher atmosphere), would still be a great benefit for them as far as strength gains go.
He was right. Hell, Trunks despite being in power level of millions at base, still had some difficulty with the sudden gravity change initially, though he quickly got accustomed to it, and didn't struggle near as much as Goku did when he first came across 10x Gs.
5. Base Goku in the beginning of the Buu saga could not budge his body after 40 tons was strapped to it. This is equivalent to damn near 600 times Earth's gravity for him.
6. Base Vegeta fighting Pui Pui in 10x gravity said it might have been an advantage for the latter if it was 500x earth's gravity instead.
Sorry, but that shit is completely in sequence, and it is completely consistent as far as progression goes. You're a whiny little bastard if you think your fan derived numbers (which you only equivocate and won't even outright state what you think Goku can bench due to them) are not remotely admissable in place of these. These take precedent, this trend started from major story plot points that led to character progression. They aren't as unimportant as the minutia of how a battle scene is drawn, which could easily be altered without impacting the story at all, whereas your dumb ass would have to alter entire stretches of dialog and story
for you to simply discount those 'lulzy' feats.
It's irresponsible bullshit. Stop this.
As for your feats 'contradicting' mine. Umm. No. They don't contradict anything. They can easily work with the parameters we've got. The feats that are calculated and confirmed by dialog, and have importance as far as the plot goes, absolutely contradicts your imaginary numbers however--numbers which you don't even have the courage to outright state what you feel they mean either. More on this below.
This being one of them:
According to you, Goku would have been WELL below a 40-tonner at this time, yet he was still capable of sending Frieza flying straight through a mesa/island, through a small body of water, and well into another landmass... With a single restrained kick..? That's cray cray, yo.We saw a similar feat(on a lesser scale) when Goku battled Vegeta during the Saiyan-saga:
And if Namek-saga Goku(PL=3,000,000) was WELL below a 40-tonner(iYo), Saiyan-saga Goku would have been like a gnat in comparison to a 40-tonner(iYo), considering his PL was only about 21,000.
For one, stop the mindlessly retroactive power-scaling with power levels. That shit is already proven unreliable as far as strength calculations go. We already know their strength levels. Goku when he was fighting Vegeta, had mastered 10x earth's gravity.
Meaning he could move around while his body weighed 3/5 to 3/4 of a ton. Base Goku while fighting Frieza had mastered moving his body around at 100x Earth's gravity, where his body was in the 6 to 7 ton range. At that point, he would have probably been unable
to move at 300x Earth's gravity though, seeing as Vegeta roughly two years later could not move under that initially, yet base Goku was only about 3 times more powerful than base Vegeta while on Namek at that point. (3 million for goku vs 1 million for vegeta after dende healed him).
That's the strength gap we are dealing with. Much less than your implying.
And on that point, the first thing I want you to do, is to stop being vague, stop ****ing equivocating, and settle down on actual figure. How much can Goku bench press? Give me a damn figure, right now. You can hide behind this non-commital bullshit, talking about "oh it takes billions of times more force to destroy something indirectly than directly" and all, but what does that mean for Goku's bench?
I'll simply take it a step further on your behalf, apparently since apparently you're too timid to say it.
Goku can bench press millions to possibly low billions of tons since he can indirectly bust small mountains and pleateus that would weigh as much as that. Right? That's what you mean, right? Rather, that's what you want to say but have tip-toed around it because you know its not supported anywhere, has no basis in any forum profile for the character and is easily shut down by scans of struggling with double digit tons. Afterall, how is Goku even going to feel like 10x g is a notable advantage to him to train under even as far as the Cell saga, if the guy is able to lift the equivalent weight of an island? That gap is far too wide.
This is not even getting into the fact that you can not at all prove that those shockwaves are from pure physical force either. You gloss over the ki element. They release ki with every major motion they take. In energy waves obviously, but even simple Kiai shouts, even just powering up, and of course hard fisticuffs. All of that releases ki. Their ki can do things they can't, they can cause planet wide earthquakes, causing volcanoes to erupt and tidal waves to form. Their Ambient ki release can do these things, yet we know for a fact their physical strength alone cannot do anything remotely like that, since they've struggled with even 300x their OWN weight or less--and no matter how dumb Toriyama is, he at least doesn't think a tectonic plate that shifts and causes major tidal waves, weighs less than 300x Goku or Vegeta's weight. 😂
That's what has already been settled on, for years now, and why Goku isn't suddenly listed as a mountain level+ bench presser, because ki does some crazy shit.
So in the end, ok awesome. Goku splits an island by knocking a durable opponent through it. Clearly it means he can lift that hundreds of millions to billions of tons of island, right? Right?? Well um...no, unfortunately not; Seeing as we have a clear cut showing of a [lack] of a particular strength level within this same part of the Frieza fight. Frieza toss a large rock,
that was maybe a couple of hundred feet tall at most at Goku (much smaller than Ayers Rock in Australia, which is about 4 million tons). Goku utterly failed to stop it in its tracks. That by itself isn't so bad,
as we don't know exactly how fast it was meant to be going, but once Goku got jammed against a plateau nearby (the impact was not enough to break that plateau mind you), did Goku manage to push himself out of that? No. He was stuck. He couldn't move that weight at all, so he resorted to using a destructo disk to cut his way out.
By the way, one more thing. While you're right, in that it takes a lot of net force to destroy a mountain, force by itself does absolutely nothing. Force needs to be enacted upon an area for it to do something. Meaning? It has to create pressure. The force that sunlight puts on the Earth is about 60,000 tons. This does not crush us. Why? Because its spread out over such a large area that the pressure it produces is miniscule. On this point, it does not take an unearthly amount of pressure to damage a rock. If that
pressure value is able to applied across an even larger area, the net force will be higher even while the pressure stays the same, and that would cause an even larger rock to still be damaged. This would directly apply to the extremely large shockwaves that come after their punches, often comparable in size to the small mountains they fight near. Obviously if enough pressure is applied across a large area, structural integrity can be lost. It doesn't take an unimaginable amount of pressure to damage/pierce rock, you can do that with a pick axe obviously, but that pressure is only being applied to a small area. Apply the same pressure across the whole rock and the rock will be pulverized even further, not just split in two. The net force would increase since the area you're applying the pressure to is increasing, but the pressure is staying the same. Just saying, simply saying 'force' regarding anything is too simplified. The pressure is what moves/damages etc, and the pressure does not have to be all that high.
Geeze, I guess mountains...islands...rock in general is made out of paper mache in the DBZ universe, if beings vastly below cl. 40 can pulverize it like nothing at all. srsly
😂
Well, there's your critical thinking skills, if this is the dumbing down you believe has to take place in order for this shit to make sense. Not at all. It's far more straight forward than that, and it does not even remotely require me to actually denounce entire statements or feats the way you're trying to do with these '2 or 3' supposedly 'lulzy' feats.
Base Goku is a sub-40 tonner at the beginning of the Buu saga, whose durability far surpasses his strength level (more durable than the environment around him, and this has been the case for decades, ever since dragon ball), and can fly far faster than he can move, aiding in the force of his strikes immensely. That goes for opponents on his level as well.
All of that easily explains shit such as him being able to knock objects that weigh no more than normal humans, through thousands of tons of rock. They are much more durable than the rock in the first place, and can run really fast and fly even ****ing faster. Proof that their flight greatly enhances their physical force can be seen in the very same 40 ton feat. If Goku was on the ground, he would not have been able to stand, let alone walk. He couldn't budge his limbs and the weight caused his body to bend over. Yet the power of his flight could keep him above the ground.
That does not remotely mean Goku can sit in one spot and just bench thousands of tons. None of the feats you wish to contradict my [canonically supported with figures] stance actually contradict my stance at all. In fact, they can entirely co-exist. Unfortunately the feats I've referenced outright do contradict YOUR stance. Not the feats themselves, but your take on the feats, which is easily undermined as bullshit.
Previous feats don't matter in CC's world.
Ill conceived and Ill applied calculations that don't take into account other factors that could rend the hypothesis void, and that aren't supported by the authors own clear cut calculations don't matter in my world, adding these imaginary numbers to older feats (numbers of which Toriyama would not have known), which already count less, does not help them at all.
And yet the mountain busting can still exist here without being discounted at all, and make total sense with what Toriyama has given us. You simply have to think just a tad bit harder about things.
On the other hand, what you've done is try to reject DBZ reality and substitute it with your own, despite having to completely
tossed aside entire story elements that were important to plot and character progression in favor of your own beliefs. That's something a petulant, whiny little ass would do.
Like you said, mountain busting is mountain busting. I agree. Unfortunately, mountain busting does not mean what you wish it meant, in this case. If there wasn't conflicting information, no ambient ki element that can cause wide scale destruction on its own, and those were the only feats of destructibility they had at all, then sure, it could pass.
As it is, it can work in other ways, and other feats take precedent since they have been calculated by dialog and are often a major part of story progression.
Originally posted by Galan007
And again: this is all inconsequential, given that even as a child(PL=100's) Goku was preforming > cl. 40 feats:
I don't think I should have to argue whether or not Goku is above the 40 ton class any longer. He was above that tier as a child. srsly
Anyway, you can have the last word on the topic. I've abundantly proven my point, and have no want or need to degrade this thread into a childish flamewar. 🙂
😂
Please, Galan, if its one thing I hope you don't do, I hope you haven't thoroughly convinced yourself that you are somehow leaving this debate on some kind of high ground intellectually. Your posts have been downright anemic on that front. Tepid, and vague, and avoiding to committing to concrete figures.
First you try to impress with some nascent physics applications. You then fail to outright state the numbers that you're trying to imply due to being too timid to actually believe in them. And then you post a feat of kid Goku struggling immensely to simply push a decent sized boulder and can't even properly assess the level of the feat in question? How in the world is that a >class 40 feat? He's not even lifting that shit, which would be immensely harder. Men have pulled jets weighing 100s of tons, entire locomatives weighing even more than that, hell even 16,000 ton cruise ships. The weight of the object itself is simply one thing. Pushing and pulling things in the end is just vastly less impressive than lifting them. And likewise, how strong is Spiderman then? The guy has lifted a chunk of metal weighing more than a locomotive. He has held up buildings weighing THOUSANDS of tons. He has held up train cars which can weigh up to 100 tons. I guess Iron Fist must be able to bench thousands upon thousands of tons since his punches can damage an entire front section of a helicarrier and cause it to tilt off axis--hell that's extremely relevant in this case as his Chi/Ki helps his destruction output just like it does for Goku and Co. Granted its a decent strength feat as he'd have to overcome the rock's inertia initially, but that goes with pushing or pulling anything large, and once he does that its much easier to keep moving it due to its momentum.
The main point you haven't grasped thus far, is that Toriyama would not have known how heavy it would have been (obviously, since he did not specify the weight of it), nor would he have known of the exact relation between the lifting feats of his characters vs them destroying shit with their punches. For him, all we know was that 40 tons sounded suitably impressive enough.
Here's what your problem is here; you're suffering from a belief-based dilemma. You look at Goku's confirmed, fully quantified strength feats, cannot acknowledge that they are the best he has on that front, and then you try to look for ways to subvert it because it 'doesn't feel right' to label Goku's strength at that level. This is because from a comparison, in your head, you look at other fictional characters like for example, Ben Grimm, and he's listed far above that level of strength by handbooks and even feats, yet doesn't produce near that kind of result on the environment that he punches. Yeah, it doesn't 'feel right' to look at Goku as a below some character's class like that. I suffered from that problem for a while too regard Goku's placement of strength years ago. But it doesn't matter. Those are the facts we have to live with, and in the end we're comparing the quirks of the physics of two completely different verses beyond just weight and gravity here when we start confusing all this shit. E.G. The Flash being able to punch much harder than Goku by narrative statements of the weight of his punches yet will leave craters much smaller. That's just different physics across different worlds and its best not to conflate them to be equivalent on every minute basis.
By all acounts of the feats we have, if Goku was tasked with lifting up a million+ ton egyptian pyramid, he would utterly fail. Ben Grimm would succeed, since he has feats of that scale yet will barely clear even the low entry for class 100 admission. Yet if we tasked them to break the pyramid Goku would do so immensely quicker, and do it in one blow. Like Ben he's much more durable than the object at hand, yet he can run far faster, and his flight can add even more force to his blows than that. Hell, if the pyramid is kept the same weight but made durable enough to withstand being broken by them, I would bet on Goku with his flight speed and acceleration still being able to knock it back a good distance. But as for standing in one spot and dead-lifting or bench pressing that weight though? Forget about it. He will fail.
To summarize, it is impossible to attribute DBZ collateral damage ability to stationary weight lifting strength because of the factors of flight amped impacts, and ambient ki being released that also damages and shifts the environment in and of itself, (at scales much larger than their own physical strength has ever shown). Goku at base being a calculated sub-40 tonner is the BEST, 100& confirmed, manga level of canon feat of strength in DBZ (well, outside of him turning SSJ and then owning that same 40 ton body), and we can only power-scale upwards with an uncertain height of ceiling since it was in the beginning of the Buu saga. I'd rate him at best by the end to be 100-200 tons tops in base.
It's cute though how you're allowing me to say all this since apparently its my 'prerogative' to be able to 'believe' Goku is a sub-40 tonner by the buu saga though, as if its some figure I made up on my own, isn't manga level canon, isn't a dialogue confirmed figure for the feat, and isn't the best fully quantified feat in a series of equivalent showings of strength dating all the way back to late Dragon Ball. Surely your fan made figures---which you aren't even confident enough to outright state their implications evidently, are valid and iron-clad emperical truths for the series though, yes?
Concession accepted. And sure. I've posted far longer in the past, in more engaging/in-depth threads than this. It's not a filibuster or anything, my style is simply to be as in-depth as possible in one sitting, and cover as many bases for retort as possible.
If you'd actually read it with an open mind though, perhaps you'd come to a better understanding of the debate.
Originally posted by Galan007
😂Do you honestly think anyone is going to read a fraction of that rant? Rhetorical: the answer is "no."
👆 @ the effort, though.
I read some of it. Maybe 1/100 of it.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
A good debating tactic is not tl;dring people until they stop. After one post like that it is time to let things go before they become...well that.
It depends on the situation. Usually, by that point in a 'debate', it is just the same points being made, over and over, with just different words.
Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixWell, yeah. Who in their right mind would take the time to a.) read that entire wall-o-text, and b.) respond to every portion of it individually?
He's shut up Burning Thought with that style though.
Not this cowboy, that's for sure.
Originally posted by dadudemonNice. 👆
I read some of it. Maybe 1/100 of it.
That's 99% more than I read...
Originally posted by AuraAngel
I have no bias against Burning Thought. He doesn't matter to me in the slightest honestly. But overlong posts are no fun dewd.Unless the writer is really talented and makes it seem awesome. But three of them? Nah.
He shouldn't matter to anyone. He was an idiot. He got shut up by CC. People cheered.
Meh, he makes good points IMO (I read the first post). Physical strength doesn't seem like it scales evenly with Power Level, the concept of which was abandoned by the creator.
They become a heck of a lot faster as the series moves on and they're capable of releasing energy that can obliterate stuff easily. It isn't that far fetched to assume their DC feats due to seemingly physical actions like flying kicks and punches are related to something other than their physical strength.
Originally posted by Galan007
Well, yeah. Who in their right mind would take the time to a.) read that entire wall-o-text, and b.) respond to every portion of it individually?Not this cowboy, that's for sure.
If you do, you will likely get another wall of text. The argument honestly isn't worth that much of yours or CC's time IMO. srug
BT was like the quanchi/phenomenol of the VG versus forum. An idiotic troll who would never give up or alter his stance.
Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
He shouldn't matter to anyone. He was an idiot. He got shut up by CC. People cheered.Meh, he makes good points IMO (I read the first post). Physical strength doesn't seem like it scales evenly with Power Level, the concept of which was abandoned by the creator.
They become a heck of a lot faster as the series moves on and they're capable of releasing energy that can obliterate stuff easily. It isn't that far fetched to assume their DC feats due to seemingly physical actions like flying kicks and punches are related to something other than their physical strength.
I know about the 16 post thing. I didn't cheer. I laughed but let's be honest: he tries that on anyone else and he'd get in more trouble. With mods or normal posters.
I truly do not care enough about whether Goku is class 100 or not lol.
Originally posted by Demonic PhoenixI agree... The convo is superfluous. That's why I was surprised he took the time to write a wall-o-text that I(and very few) will never read. /shrug
If you do, you will likely get another wall of text. The argument honestly isn't worth that much of yours or CC's time IMO. srugBT was like the quanchi/phenomenol of the VG versus forum. An idiotic troll who would never give up or alter his stance.
Heh, I think I remember hearing about him. Sounds intelligent. 👆
Continues on the next page. But honestly you're not going to read it lol.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
I know about the 16 post thing. I didn't cheer. I laughed but let's be honest: he tries that on anyone else and he'd get in more trouble. With mods or normal posters.I truly do not care enough about whether Goku is class 100 or not lol.
Yeah. Either way you cut it, Goku's a Planet Buster with his energy attacks, and that's honestly going to be enough for him against weaker foes.
Originally posted by Galan007
I agree... The convo is superfluous. That's why I was surprised he took the time to write a wall-o-text that I(and very few) will never read. /shrugHeh, I think I remember hearing about him. Sounds intelligent. 👆
Yeah, true. Well, some people are capable of doing that. He's not an unintelligent troll like the most that would though. Just the opposite.
BT has argued for Kain the Vampire, a human-sized character who barely qualifies as a meta, stomping the likes of Pyron, a planet+ sized dude who can wear planets on his person, and destroy planets in his restrained form. haermm
