There's nothing arbitrary to follow.
Only what the author showed us and told us directly in a clear cut manner, and it lines up with prior showings.
Tropes are tropes. Fan extrapolations/calculations need not apply.
Goku near the start of the Buu saga in base, was a sub 40 tonner when it was strapped to him. i.e. it was a near 600x Earth's gravity equivalent for him.
Vegeta near the start of the Android saga in base, was a sub 18-20 tonner, as his body could not handle 300x Earth's gravity. (not simply fan extrapolation, as Bulma's dad even said so, referencing Vegeta's weight as a guestimated 60 kg when he multipled)
Goku midway to Namek, was a sub 10 tonner since he could not handle 100x Earth's gravity.
It's funny how you're trying to ignore indirect mountain breaking(as well as other feats in DB canon) as though they shouldn't count as strength feats. Like it or not, they should and they do.
You can point out a few instances in which Z fighters struggled with mediocre training weight. I can recall at least a dozen instances in which the feat(s) in question required far more than cl. 40 strength to accomplish. Any time the shockwave from a punch causes collateral damage for several hundred yards. Any time a character is punched through a mountain. Any time a character pulverizes large chucks of earth. Etc.
All of the above requires > cl. 40 strength. This is an unarguable fact, so I don't know why I've even bothered indulging you this far.
It's funny how you're trying to ignore several feats that have clear cut calculations that come alongside the characters witnessing them, and how they, funny enough, increase as they should with the timeline.
You tried to powerscale lazily and just come to the conclusion that things should be orders of magnitudes greater than what they showed, I already showed how it doesn't work when a PL of million+ Vegeta is only confident that he can triple the strength of a double digit thousand Goku.
Your fan extrapolations are clearly not 'inarguable', as I'm arguing just that, and you're just falling back on faulty real world logic applications that that does not line up with the direct calculations given in the show. The latter takes precedent.
This means the most we can say is that <10 to 40 tonners can cause that kind of collateral damage in the DBZ world because that's how the physics work in that world. Lol. The only indulgence on your part is self indulgence in your application of fan extrapolations somehow overriding more clear cut feats with actual numerical figures attached to them.
Your argument hinges on combat visuals which can already be readily hand-waved away as tropes. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm sorry, but you cannot come to the conclusion that Goku is actually 'billions' of times greater in strength than he what he showed in direct figures, just because by external real world measures one could calculate that indirect destruction could take 'billions' of times more force to do.
Not to mention, that doesn't even work out when you forget that another real world fact you have to realize is that something the size of a fist could never destroy a mountain, no matter how strong the fist is. Seeing as its simply far too small to cause any large structural damage.
Originally posted by CosmicCometStopped reading. This is a horribly ironic statement coming from a guy who is explicitly trying to ignore the fact that the high majority of Goku's physical battle feats require FAR more than cl. 40 strength to accomplish. These feast vastly outnumber feats to the contrary, in fact. But hey, that's your prerogative. /shrug
It's funny how you're trying to ignore several feats that have clear cut calculations that come alongside the characters witnessing them, and how they, funny enough, increase as they should with the timeline.
That was Frieza-saga base Goku(PL=3,000,000), who was drastically holding back at the time. Claiming the strikes of a sub-40 tonner were sufficient to produce THAT much damage is, quite frankly, retarded.
Lol.
Of course you stopped reading, you have nothing left to do but offer circular statements.
No. Simply put, in DBZ it simply does not require greater strength than what they showed to make that kind of collateral damage. That's the physics of the world you have to live by. Not your own inserted numbers.
Base Goku in Buu Saga could not budge his body at 40 tons. 40 tons stated by a Kai.
Base Vegeta in Android Saga could not budge his body while it was 18 tons, stated by Bulma's dad, a top scientist and inventor.
Collateral damage in DBZ is not what you want it to mean, and does not give you the room to give anyone a strength level 'billions' (this was the figure you used directly) of times greater than concrete feats that have numerical figures.
End of. Trope arguments. This is not limited to DBZ either, just anime in general, where people destroy shit indirectly far above their actual lifting feats. Yu Yu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, One-Piece etc. You name it.
Originally posted by CosmicCometThis just might be the most idiotic statement I've ever read. Definitely in the top 5.
Collateral damage in DBZ is not what you want it to mean, and does not give you the room to give anyone a strength level 'billions' (this was the figure you used directly) of times greater than concrete feats that have figures.
-You: "Physically destroying a mountain does not require mountain-busting strength!"
-Me: "Um, yes. It does. none"
-You: "Indirectly destroying a mountain with the shockwaves generated by physical blows does not require billions of times more energy input than destroying that same mountain with a direct punch!"
-Me: "Um, yes. It does. none"
Lol, good God. I think we're done here.
Originally posted by Galan007
This just might be the most idiotic statement I've ever read. Definitely in the top 5.-You: "Physically destroying a mountain does not require mountain-busting strength!"
-Me: "Um, yes. It does. none"-You: "Indirectly destroying a mountain with the shockwaves generated by physical blows does not require billions of times more energy input than destroying that same mountain with a direct punch!"
-Me: "Um, yes. It does. none"Lol, good God. I think we're done here.
Your incessant whining and inability to reconcile with the concrete facts given before in the show, across three separate sagas in the timeline, is amusing.
No, my dear idiot.
The statement is not that "Mountain busting doesn't mean mountain busting!".
The statement is, "Mountain busting in this case does not mean the figures you wish to give to it."
Goku struggles with 40 tons? Confirmed? Ok. Cool. That's all it takes in DBZ as far as lifting strength goes then to cause that kind of AOE. Or hell, even less than that, since we know Vegeta years earlier struggled with 18 tons, or hell even less than that, seeing as Goku even before that, struggled with ~10 tons. You're getting hung up on a trope that exists in all manga/anime. Their AOE is not their strength. It's their AOE. And its not an important part of the story, nor is it quantified, which wouldn't be a problem on its own, but we have other clear cut quantifications directly from the author. All of which you would like to upgrade with your laughable, whiny, fan-extrapolated 'billions' figure. That kind of level of contradiction, that kind of level of gap against the author's concrete, numerically accompanied showings is ludicrous, and completely unsupportable.
You'd have something if Goku struggling with 40 tons was some kind of isolated feat, that we could easily write off as Toriyama's bad memory or being a hack in general. But clearly you forgot other instances that from earlier sagas where the numbers line up just as they should. Read: They were lower.
And what do they all have in common? They were all clearly quantified.
Goku's been busting mountains indirectly since fighting with Vegeta on Earth in the Saiyan Saga. They do the same again in the Buu Saga. Clearly its simply not that important a detail so as to make a fuss and extrapolate figures from it, since they could do similar things from like over a decade ago.
And yet despite their power levels being increased thousands upon thousands of times, their direct strength increases were a few multiples at best throughout the years. The best snap shot of which was Pre-Android Saga Vegeta being confident that he was at least 3x stronger than a pre-namek Goku (in power level wise he was far above that), yet being completely --wrong--, since he could not even handle 300x Gs despite Goku having already mastered 100 x Gs.
Once more, your insistence on increasing their strength profile by 'billions' of figures using real world physics falls flat on its face, when you fail to remember that something as small as a fist could never destroy a mountain, no matter how much force it had behind it, also going by real world physics.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why are people powerscaling a canon source from a noncanon source?It would be like saying that because Old Man Logan's Wolverine killed Hulk, 616 Wolverine kills 616 Hulk.
Using that would mean BoG SS3 < GT base. Only need those two statements to get here.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Were they?I assume moons are the size of our moon for simplicity. O:
Originally posted by CosmicCometLol, you are so mad. Relax. 👆
Your incessant whining and inability to reconcile with the concrete facts given before in the show, across three separate sagas in the timeline, is amusing.No, my dear idiot.
Once more: in order to destroy a mountain directly, one must exert enough physical force to destroy said mountain. If you don't agree with this, then you are retarded-- I literally cannot dumb it down any further. That said, the strength/force required to destroy a mountain is undeniably in excess of what a sub-40 tonner is capable of producing. Simple logic is simple.
You can cling to 2 or 3 lulz-worthy showings if you like. I'll stick with the dozen+ showings that overtly contradict your opinion, though... This being one of them:
According to you, Goku would have been WELL below a 40-tonner at this time, yet he was still capable of sending Frieza flying straight through a mesa/island, through a small body of water, and well into another landmass... With a single restrained kick..? That's cray cray, yo.
We saw a similar feat(on a lesser scale) when Goku battled Vegeta during the Saiyan-saga:
And if Namek-saga Goku(PL=3,000,000) was WELL below a 40-tonner(iYo), Saiyan-saga Goku would have been like a gnat in comparison to a 40-tonner(iYo), considering his PL was only about 21,000.
Geeze, I guess mountains...islands...rock in general is made out of paper mache in the DBZ universe, if beings vastly below cl. 40 can pulverize it like nothing at all. srsly
Originally posted by carver9Previous feats don't matter in CC's world.
Mercernary Tao threw a cinder block clean across the world with ease and kid Goku was stronger than him. That alone is a class 100 ft. Goku tossing people almost out of orbit proves this as well. Don't get what the problem is.
And again: this is all inconsequential, given that even as a child(PL=100's) Goku was preforming > cl. 40 feats:
I don't think I should have to argue whether or not Goku is above the 40 ton class any longer. He was above that tier as a child. srsly
Anyway, you can have the last word on the topic. I've abundantly proven my point, and have no want or need to degrade this thread into a childish flamewar. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, you can have the last word on the topic. I've abundantly proven my point, and have no want or need to degrade this thread into a childish flamewar. 🙂
Meh. That's how I've been lately. Just give up on idiot-ragers who think making bad points is a way of "debating."
Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't actually recall Goku's punches destroying mountain ranges with the shockwaves. Galan, when did this happen?
I don't remember that happening in the manga but it happened in the anime.
This is the "anime versus forum".
BRB: gonna check the OP.
Edit - Looks like the anime counts since this includes the anime, GT. OP did not specify that the manga, only, was being used (or the anime, only, for that matter).
Edit2 - Does that change the nature of your question?
Originally posted by dadudemonI frequent the comic book forums, where hate-fueled rants are commonplace. I stopped partaking in that type of gibberish years ago *thank God*.
Meh. That's how I've been lately. Just give up on idiot-ragers who think making bad points is a way of "debating."
Originally posted by NemeBroIn the manga the only instance of shockwave mountain-breaking I recall was during SSJ2 Goku's battle with Majin Vegeta. In the anime it happened in pretty much every series-- which is primarily what I was referring to in my previous posts.
I don't actually recall Goku's punches destroying mountain ranges with the shockwaves. Galan, when did this happen?
I know manga takes precedence here, though, which is why I only posted manga feats. Apologies for the confusion. 🙂
