Darth Vader vs. Darth Malgus

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I also am skeptical of the claim that Vader has nothing on Malgus.

I think you mean that the other way around.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But what does Sidious's remark about Malgus's feats have anything to do with approximating one to the other? All it means is that, according to Sidious, Malgus has done things no other Sith has done. That's impressive if we assume its broad implications. If we take the statement literally, though, all it means is just that: no one has done certain things Malgus has. Doesn't mean someone like Sidious or Vitiate wouldn't slaughter him with impunity, does it? Of course not.

As Newguy pointed out the entire quote is:

"Malgus submitted utterly to the dark side, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated."

-The Book of Anger, Chapter 2 of "Absolute Power" by Darth Sidious

Its clearly tying Malgus' feats on the battlefield to his status as an extraordinary warrior. The clear implication is that Sidious is praising his abilities by saying that his combat feats haven't ever been duplicated. If you're going to be anal about it and use only the specific words as literal in saying 'no-ones ever done certain things he has' then thats an extremely disingenuous way of looking at it. I don't see why we cannot take its implications, looking at what Sidious is actually saying and that he's linking it to Malgus' status as a warrior. And not in terms of 'he took a garrison with 10 men he great!', no Sidious is linking it with Malgus' personal combat ability seeing as he saying its a product of him utterly embracing the darkside.

Its clear that I take this to mean more than you do. The fact that Malgus' combat feats have never been matched is highly impressive to me. That is why I am using it as a means of approximating his strength. It seems obvious to me that if a warrior has achieved things on the battlefield that no-one else has ever been able to duplicate than that speaks highly for his ability in battle.

Obviously I'm not saying this puts him above everyone or Sith like Vitiate or Sidious. I don't know why you even felt the need to comment on that. All I am saying is that it is an extremely impressive description of his abilities. And that it is especially relevant here since Sidious is well aware of Vader's battlefield feats, and can thus compare them quite well. And in his estimation Malgus has displayed things that Vader has never matched.

Which is precisely why I brought it up in the first place. To counter the idea that Malgus has nothing on Vader. The fact is that he very obviously does.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You'll have to refresh my memory on these subjects.

If you're referring to Malgus lightning:

The Third Lesson:

"At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue Force Lightning. They struck the charging Jedi, swept through his defenses, swirled around him and began to burn flesh.

Shouting with pain, the Jedi leaned forward into the lightning - teeth bare, blue blades held before him - and staggered toward Malgus. Despite his burns, he came onward. One step, another, another, but he was failing, wilting in the heat of the lightning. Malgus channeled more power and the Jedi fell to his knees, screaming. The lightning spiraled around the Zabrak, blasting dark holes in his body. The lightsabers fell from his hands and he writhged in agony, screaming his pain to the sky."

As mentioned, this is the same Jedi who collapsed two buildings on Malgus and Malgus was grievously wounded (as in, afterwards he needed cybernetics installed to survive) at the time. The guy also had two lightsabers, which I believe makes it easier to block lightning and Malgus overpowers him easily. The text notes that Malgus could kill him at any time and he's extremely casual in his attack until he amps up the power. Lastly note that he blasts holes in the Jedi's body with his lightning, an extremely impressive display (whats more impressive is that the Jedi actually survives that. The guys a fvcking badass).

All from Deceived:

"Malgus, not to be outdone, picked a Jedi Knight at random, a human female ten meters away, held forth his left hand, and discharged veins of blue lightning from his fingertips. The jagged lines of energy cut a swath through the battle, harvesting two Padawans as they went, until they caught up to the Jedi Knight and lifted her off her feet.

She screamed as the lightning ripped into her, her flesh made temporarily translucent from the dark power coursing through her. Malgus savored her pain as she died."

"As Aryn prepared to leap at Malgus, he held forth a hand, almost casually, and lightning sizzled through the space between them. Aryn interposed her lightsabers, but the power in the lightning exceeded anything she had felt from Malgus before. It blasted through her defenses and both lightsabers flew from her hands. The lightning seized her, lifted her up, and threw her from the top of the shuttle."

Bare in mind that Aryn had earlier been able to block Malgus' lightning with a single lightsaber in midair, which speaks of the boost Malgus received when he embraced the darkside.

Also he actually did it 3 times:

"Malgus held forth his hand and the rage within him manifested in blue veins of lightning that discharged from his fingertips and slammed into Adraas. The power stopped Adraas’s charge cold, blew his lightsaber from his hand, caught him up in a cage of burning lightning. He screamed, squirming in frustration and pain."

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And it's important to note that I, as the spectator, don't have to prove anything. This is between you and Intrepid. All I need do is mercilessly challenge and nitpick. I'm not claiming absolutely one way or another.

This is blatantly not true since you offered an argument for Vader being able to block it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But the straightforward interpretation is that lightsabers are fairly effective in defending against Force lightning when the defender is prepared. Certainly it sometimes fails: you claim Sidious made little headway with Mace but he disarmed Yoda pretty handily.

That they are farily effective is not in question. The question is whether Vader can use one to block lightning as powerful as Malgus'. I'm seeing nothing to indicate he could.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku, one of the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, was unable to overwhelm Obi-Wan's defense in AOTC (though I concede the possibility Dooku wasn't giving it his all).

Which only speaks of Dooku's weakness in terms of Force lightning imo.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader, another one of history's strongest Sith who has a number of accolades and feats to his name, can be reasonably expected to defend against Force lightning if he has his lightsaber. I'd need to be convinced that Malgus has what it takes to bring him down when he's focused.

I'd agree with you on the first point. Of course we can assume he's pretty good with it based upon his level of power.

However, against high-level lightning I'd need actual evidence. To say he could block Malgus' lightning is completely unsupported. You need more than to be pretty good to block his lightning, as he's shown before.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Really, beating five of seven fodder-Jedi is alone better than beating one fodder-Jedi in Zallow. That he did it decades before his peak just makes it even better.

I'd personally disagree, especially since a lot of those Jedi attacked him individually. Plus as I said, Vader was severely wounded in the fight.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I mean the way that he can face two different teams.

Eh, it needs to be one of them. So in canon he must have done it to one of those two teams.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm pretty sure that Sidious' claim about Malgus means jack shit.

Nah.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nice red herring which I never denied. As it stands, Vader's better in every category.

Not a red herring, just disagreeing with you. Personally I think the only thing Vader may have on Malgus is speed, which I don't recall Malgus displaying much of. In strength he can pick up and snap a guys neck with one hand and kick a guy across a hall and crack a column:

"a side kick that connected to Adraas’s side, broke ribs, and flung Adraas fully cross the narrow axis of the hall. He crashed into a column and the impact split it as would lightning a tree."

So about equal imo.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It was a question as I can't remember. But either way, I see no reason for Vader would be unable to block the lightning. Kenobi blocked Dooku's, Zannah blocked Bane's, Mace blocked Sidious' etc. Vader, as one of the most powerful Sith in the franchise, should be capable of that. Saying otherwise is ignorant.

See my response to Tempest on this.

You would give Malgus the edge in strength, after you admitted that Vader's strength gave trouble to Starkiller, who can throw around tie fighters?

I said equal.

Sorry

But still, equal?

It takes a lot of force to kick a guy across a room with enough power to snap a column.

Plus Galen threw that TIE fighter while in the air, which likely made it easier to do. #SCIENCE

Actually, it would be harder because Galen would have nothing to ground his legs to, which means Galen had to use his upper body strength alone. Even when lifting or throwing something heavier than you are, you would need to use legs as support.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Which only speaks of Dooku's weakness in terms of Force lightning imo.

Really?

Originally posted by Nephthys
However, against high-level lightning I'd need actual evidence. To say he could block Malgus' lightning is completely unsupported. You need more than to be pretty good to block his lightning, as he's shown before.

Since you believe Mace successfully contained Sidious's FL, then the only reason you wouldn't believe Vader could contain Malgus's is either:

1) You believe Windu is more powerful in the Force than Vader, or

2) Malgus's FL is more powerful than Sidious's.

If you don't believe either of these 2 points, then obviously Vader can contain Malgus's FL with his Saber. If you do believe one of the above points, then I suggest you make a strong case for it, because they both seem pretty unlikely.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually, it would be harder because Galen would have nothing to ground his legs to, which means Galen had to use his upper body strength alone. Even when lifting or throwing something heavier than you are, you would need to use legs as support.

No.

SCIENCE.

Wouldn't it be easier to move it though since it isn't on the floor and since its already falling its easier to make it move in a direction you want?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really?

Dooku's lightning is relatively unimpressive.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since you believe Mace successfully contained Sidious's FL, then the only reason you wouldn't believe Vader could contain Malgus's is either:

1) You believe Windu is more powerful in the Force than Vader, or

2) Malgus's FL is more powerful than Sidious's.

If you don't believe either of these 2 points, then obviously Vader can contain Malgus's FL with his Saber. If you do believe one of the above points, then I suggest you make a strong case for it, because they both seem pretty unlikely.

Or 3) Vaapad.

Not really, unless we are to assume that it weighs less while in the air. But if Galan was merely pushing it in the direction that it was already falling, then yeah it might be easier, but you said he was throwing it.

It wouldn't weigh less while being in the air, and even if it did Galen would also weigh less, so it wouldn't really make much of a difference, other than it still being harder because Galen still wouldn't have anything to root his legs to.

YouTube video

You judge. 7.40

I might be able to judge better from my laptop, but from the looks of it, it seems harder, as Galen was slinging it around, and even seeming to momentarily break it's fall by tossing it a little higher in another direction.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Actually, Tempest and Stigma, that theory is blatantly incorrect.

"Malgus submitted utterly to the dark side, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have [B]never been duplicated."

-The Book of Anger, Chapter 2 of "Absolute Power" by Darth Sidious

Never means "never". It doesn't mean "never during his time" or anything of the sort. Up until the Dark Times where Palpatine and Vader reigned, Malgus's battlefield feats had not once been duplicated. [/B]

This does not undermine the first part of my ealier post, though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd personally disagree, especially since a lot of those Jedi attacked him individually. Plus as I said, Vader was severely wounded in the fight.

Either way, it was decades before his prime and he's done it twice. Then you have beating Roan Shryne, fighting Marek as equally, fighting ANH Obi-Wan equally etc., again decades before his prime, before finally fighting Luke as an equal, who, per logical chain improvements, is at least RotS Obi-Wan's equal in skill, and Malgus has no skill feats to make him Obi-Wan's equal.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Eh, it needs to be one of them. So in canon he must have done it to one of those two teams.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not a red herring, just disagreeing with you. Personally I think the only thing Vader may have on Malgus is speed, which I don't recall Malgus displaying much of. In strength he can pick up and snap a guys neck with one hand and kick a guy across a hall and crack a column:

"a side kick that connected to Adraas’s side, broke ribs, and flung Adraas fully cross the narrow axis of the hall. He crashed into a column and the impact split it as would lightning a tree."

So about equal imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
See my response to Tempest on this.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol

Either way, it was decades before his prime and he's done it twice. Then you have beating Roan Shryne, fighting Marek as equally, fighting ANH Obi-Wan equally etc., again decades before his prime, before finally fighting Luke as an equal, who, per logical chain improvements, is at least RotS Obi-Wan's equal in skill, and Malgus has no skill feats to make him Obi-Wan's equal.

Eh, the only one thats really great is Marek imo. Shryn is good for like a random Jedi, but he doesn't really register in the big leagues imo. Malgus would annihilate him. As for Luke, the only reason he's as good as he is is because he fought Vader and all the info about how good he is comes from powerscaling from Vader.

Malgus might not have lightsaber skill feats but in terms of combat ability he is surely above RotS Kenobi. The fact that Malgus' battlefield feats are unparallelled also speaks of his skill imo.

Not to mention him beating Satale Shan, who is very skilled as well:

"The Grand Master had impressed with more than her telekinetic and telepathic skills. Her speed and decisiveness in combat were unbelievable—but she never once made a sound. Her face was calm, almost serene, as she slashed and hacked through the hexes. There was a tranquillity about her, almost a blissfulness, that spoke of an intimacy with violence Ax had not expected.

To the Sith, violence was an art form. To Master Satele, it seemed like life itself."

Source: (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Fatal Alliance)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Open you're ****ing eyes. He's refering to the way Malgus was submitted to the dark side and willing to use his rage in battle, which is why he lends the writings to Vader as inspiration.

Heh, thank you for posting the whole quote. It proves that Sidious is talking about Malgus' combat ability since its talking about how anger and will lead to power. The quote is a estimation of Malgus' strength in combat, end of story.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Even if strength is equal, Vader's got a speed advantage, a massive power advantage, and a moderately good skill advantage.

I wouldn't say his speed advantage is noticeable personably and I disagree that he has a power advantage. This is the guy who casually owned a Jedi powerful enough to collapse two buildings, while permanently wounded and before he gained a huge boost in power.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Have to say, that's pretty ignorant. Either way, one hit would not kill Vader, as he lasted a good amount after being hit by Sidious' lightning, and he's survived Marek's lightning as well.

Even if it didn't kill him, do you really think he'd win afterwards? He'd be damaged to the point that Malgus would pwn him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Eh, the only one thats really great is Marek imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Shryne is good for like a random Jedi, but he doesn't really register in the big leagues imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus would annihilate him.

And Vader would annihilate Zallow.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As for Luke, the only reason he's as good as he is is because he fought Vader and all the info about how good he is comes from powerscaling from Vader.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus might not have lightsaber skill feats but in terms of combat ability he is surely above RotS Kenobi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact that Malgus' battlefield feats are unparallelled also speaks of his skill imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not to mention him beating Satale Shan, who is very skilled as well:

"The Grand Master had impressed with more than her telekinetic and telepathic skills. Her speed and decisiveness in combat were unbelievable—but she never once made a sound. Her face was calm, almost serene, as she slashed and hacked through the hexes. There was a tranquillity about her, almost a blissfulness, that spoke of an intimacy with violence Ax had not expected.

To the Sith, violence was an art form. To Master Satele, it seemed like life itself."

Source: (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Fatal Alliance)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Heh, thank you for posting the whole quote. It proves that Sidious is talking about Malgus' combat ability since its talking about how anger and will lead to power. The quote is a estimation of Malgus' strength in combat, end of story.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wouldn't say his speed advantage is noticeable personably

Originally posted by Nephthys
and I disagree that he has a power advantage. This is the guy who casually owned a Jedi powerful enough to collapse two buildings, while permanently wounded and before he gained a huge boost in power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if it didn't kill him, do you really think he'd win afterwards? He'd be damaged to the point that Malgus would pwn him.

Also, I would like to bring up that Zannah's blocked Bane's lightning multiple times, and while Vader is unquestionably more powerful than Zannah, Bane's lightning matches that of Malgus, so again, I don't see why Vader shouldn't be able to block it.

Neph
I think you mean that the other way around.

No. I don't think Vader's going to straight up punk Malgus.

Neph
Obviously I'm not saying this puts him above everyone or Sith like Vitiate or Sidious. I don't know why you even felt the need to comment on that.

As Intrepid has noted, no one's denying that Malgus is skilled in battle. But if you take the quote literally with its implications, then we'd have to put Malgus above Sidious and Vitiate as well.

Neph
-snip-

As for the rest is concerned, you've established that Malgus is capable of overwhelming Jedi's defenses. Overwhelming Vader's defenses is another matter entirely.