Originally posted by h1a8
In comics, Tagging someone with bullet speed and reflexes doesn't mean they are faster than a bullet. That's what we call PIS. Kingpin is not faster than a bullet. Unless you can show evidence other than him to Tagging characters with their speed and reflexes turned off
So you want feats, other than directly applicable combat feats, in order to apply it to a combat scenario? Are you serious?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Nvr mind. My point is that KP Tagging people with bullet time feats doesn't mean anything if the ones tagged were not using bullet time speed or reflexes at the time. This is a forum fight and not a comic one.
So you want feats, other than directly applicable combat feats, in order to apply it to a combat scenario? Are you serious?
Originally posted by h1a8
Nvr mind. My point is that KP Tagging people with bullet time feats doesn't mean anything if the ones tagged were not using bullet time speed or reflexes at the time. This is a forum fight and not a comic one.
And your proof that the characters were holding back their speed every single time they fought KP?
Originally posted by h1a8
Nvr mind. My point is that KP Tagging people with bullet time feats doesn't mean anything if the ones tagged were not using bullet time speed or reflexes at the time. This is a forum fight and not a comic one.
You'll need to prove that, to be honest - that they were holding back.
I mean, just to reverse the argument, what's to stop me from arguing that every person Ozy fought, every feat of his, was a result of people holding back?
Nite Owl was holding back against Ozy. Internal monologue and art may say things like 'I'm giving it my best, but he's still thrashing me soundly!', but I will still argue he was holding back.
Because essentially, that is what you're arguing, only with Kingpin and Spiderman. We clearly have Spiderman saying things like wow, his speed is catching me out, he's so fast etc etc - but you're dismissing it, and saying they're jobbing down to KP's level.
When, considering his history and the number of people he has fought, makes it less and less likely. Whereas with Ozy, he has had a handful of fights - and so, much more likely the five or so fights we've seen him in, his opponents were jobbing down to his level.
QUOTE=14482025]Originally posted by Silent Master
And your proof that the characters were holding back their speed every single time they fought KP?
KP Tagging people with bullet time feats doesn't mean anything if the ones tagged were not using bullet time speed or reflexes at the time. This is a forum fight and not a comic one.
The writer written then without bullet time reactions and not that the characters purposely held back something.
Originally posted by h1a8
QUOTE=14482025]Originally posted by Silent Master
[B]And your proof that the characters were holding back their speed every single time they fought KP?The writer written then without bullet time reactions and not that the characters purposely held back something. [/B]
So Alan Moore wrote the bullets which were fired by Nite Owl as being slower than normal bullets?
Essentially, what is rather difficult (for me to understand, anyway) is that whatever argument you try and use for KP being slow, can be applied equally to the feats of Ozy.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So Alan Moore wrote the bullets which were fired by Nite Owl as being slower than normal bullets?Essentially, what is rather difficult (for me to understand, anyway) is that whatever argument you try and use for KP being slow, can be applied equally to the feats of Ozy.
Bullets are bullets in comics. If they weren't then we can throw away ALL bullet feats. We don't for the sake of the story and suspension of disbelief.
There is nothing against logic to say that the characters who KP tagged were operating at bullet timing ability at the time.
In a nutshell, if there are two conflicting theories then we go on the one that makes the most sense.
It makes more sense that the characters weren't operating at bullet time ability when they fought KP than
KP was moving with speeds significantly faster than a bullet when he fought the characters.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85NO because KP has never shown speed well beyond that of a bullet. He has to have bullet time feats or be referenced from the narration or character statements to be moving faster than a bullet. The fact that he tagged characters means absolutely nothing since we all know that writers can write characters without bullet time ability anytime they want. There are many many different examples of this (like when many slow beings tagged Spidey, Superman, etc.)
Why?Because he is peak human?
Originally posted by h1a8
NO because KP has never shown speed well beyond that of a bullet. He has to have bullet time feats or be referenced from the narration or character statements to be moving faster than a bullet. The fact that he tagged characters means absolutely nothing since we all know that writers can write characters without bullet time ability anytime they want. There are many many different examples of this (like when many slow beings tagged Spidey, Superman, etc.)
Still not understanding your logic here.
You're allowing, for the sake of the story, that human are able to be faster than bullets. To highlight how uber they are. So this is writer's intent - for the sake of the story, and suspension of belief, we allow it.
BUT
If the story calls for a guy to be a credible physical threat to Daredevil and Spiderman, amongst others, we DON'T suspend belief, and despite him actually hitting them, we.....assume that the characters were lowering their skills and speed.
This goes beyond speed, as well. Durability would be another. Kingpin has taken blows from Spiderman; Ozy's punches would be lovetaps to him. Pressure points wouldn't work, either; Red Skull tried that, and he took them.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85A human can have bullet time ability in comics. But a human cannot have bullet time ability if they never shown it (or stated to have it). KP was never shown nor was stated to move faster than a bullet. If he did then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Still not understanding your logic here.You're allowing, for the sake of the story, that human are able to be faster than bullets. To highlight how uber they are. So this is writer's intent - for the sake of the story, and suspension of belief, we allow it.
BUT
If the story calls for a guy to be a credible physical threat to Daredevil and Spiderman, amongst others, we DON'T suspend belief, and despite him actually hitting them, we.....assume that the characters were lowering their skills and speed.
This goes beyond speed, as well. Durability would be another. Kingpin has taken blows from Spiderman; Ozy's punches would be lovetaps to him. Pressure points wouldn't work, either; Red Skull tried that, and he took them.
Spidey holds back his strength out of fear of killing. Otherwise the comic thug in comics would have class 10 or greater durability.
Stopping a bullet in midair takes tons of force to do. So Ozy has superhuman strength (in terms of real life). Plus pressure points are God in comics (even on people a lot stronger).
http://imageshack.us/f/201/34764991wu2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/18647220xx4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/60692133ya7.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/65488967oz8.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/58406357xu2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/79314089fa6.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/65871407qk1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/17299533yd6.jpg/
The Red Skull, vs Kingpin.
'Every one of his body's vulnerable spots are so well padded, my strongest blows do not faze him!'
Pressure points may be your god, h1a8 - but they wouldn't work on the Kingpin. He's almost tailor made to take on Ozy.
With thanks to Bad Ash231
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Ok good point. But is Ozy strong enough to phase KP? I would guess yes since catching a bullet takes tons of force to do.
http://imageshack.us/f/201/34764991wu2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/18647220xx4.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/60692133ya7.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/65488967oz8.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/58406357xu2.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/79314089fa6.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/65871407qk1.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/201/17299533yd6.jpg/The Red Skull, vs Kingpin.
'Every one of his body's vulnerable spots are so well padded, my strongest blows do not faze him!'
Pressure points may be your god, h1a8 - but they wouldn't work on the Kingpin. He's almost tailor made to take on Ozy.
With thanks to Bad Ash231
