Originally posted by The_Tempest
Says who?
Me. And also the basic fact that its impossible to choke out in the few seconds max it would take them to attack him.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm asking you to explain how they'd possibly defend against him crushing their windpipes. You're merely assuming that they can without offering evidence as to how.
No I'm not. I haven't said they could defend against it or block it, just that they'd find some way to stop him from continuing to do it, like shoot a half dozen missiles at him or use that silly carbonite spray.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is a little better, but doesn't quite satisfy the burden. The Champion was hit by Tormen's telekinesis, though he wasn't seriously injured and managed to dodge projectiles. From the looks of it, the fight then devolved into more physical combat, with Tormen pursuing with his lightsaber.
Yes, but the fact is Tormen can use Force choke (2.45). If it was really as simple as just using to pwn the Champion you'd think he'd do it. And since he call pull a console out of the floor suuuurely he could break a mans neck amirite?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
My question isn't whether they've battled powerful telekinetics. My question is whether you have any evidence to suggest that they can outright resist it.
And again I ask what you mean by 'resist it.' Obviously they have no way to block it (although there is a device that can block telepathy in the Consular story mmm) but in terms of resisting Sidious trying to pwn them I've offered my argument and theres no much else to do than reapeatedly point out that they've beaten opponents with powerful TK. Kellian Jarro smashed Mandalorians against the ground so hard their packs exploded and the Hunter killed him too.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pre Vizsla, Jango Fett, and Cad Bane are all Forceless mooks who have duked it out with skilled Force users before. But put them against any talented Force user, particularly a Sith, and the Sith has access to their full arsenal, I'd still say they'd go down pretty hard as long as the Force is in question.
Thats your opinion, but its unsupported by actual ****ing canon that shows that forceless "mooks" can defeat powerful Force users through skill and equipment.
I'm going to be honest here and just say that I'm not going to strain myself arguing it with you. I feel I've met the burden of proof by pointing out that they've fought opponents with access to all the tactics and powers you're arguing will pwn them and won.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Neph, I think you're missing MY's point: if Sidious can slaughter two celebrated swordsmen with his saber before Mace and Kit were able to do anything to him, then what makes you think the force users on this team can do something fast enough to prevent Sidious from dismissing the non-force users with a simple gesture. And yes, Sidious can instantly snap the wind pipes of a non-force users. Dooku can snap huge metallic columns with a gesture, so what makes you think Sidious can't do the same to some wind pipes? PIS?
Oh golly gee, and I guess it also stands to reason that if Dooku could snap metallic columns then he could break a human wind pipe too right? Like he did against Obi-Wan when he was ragdolling him and could obviously do tha- oh wait no he didn't, did he?
Or hey, what about when Maul was ragdolling Obi-Wan? Hell, he's choking him out at one point and if he can do that clearly he could just snap his fuc- no.... no he didn't do that either.
Or, stay with me here... if Dooku could lift a dozen heavy pillars, surely he should be able to snap a dozen necks too right? Like he did against those stupid pirates who captured hi- aaaaaaargh!
But yes lets keep arguing these baseless hypotheticals. Canon is on your side! 👆
Your argument for the Cipher, the Champion, and any other Forceless mook against any truly talented Force user relies entirely on PIS.
Look at Vizsla vs. Maul. They have an intense fight wherein Vizsla proved to be an enormous challenge... but Maul didn't use the Force once. Likewise with Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore.
It's reasonable to assume that if someone can snap pillars, they can snap necks. Now, if the neck in question belongs to someone who can resist, negate, mitigate, or otherwise blunt Force powers, then I'd agree.
But until the Cipher and the Champion demonstrate such resistance, then there's no way they can stop Sidious from just crushing them. And I'd argue the same for any talented Force user against Forceless mooks.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your argument for the Cipher, the Champion, and any other Forceless mook against any truly talented Force user relies entirely on PIS.Look at Vizsla vs. Maul. They have an intense fight wherein Vizsla proved to be an enormous challenge... but Maul didn't use the Force once. Likewise with Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore.
It's reasonable to assume that if someone can snap pillars, they can snap necks. Now, if the neck in question belongs to someone who can resist, negate, mitigate, or otherwise blunt Force powers, then I'd agree.
But until the Cipher and the Champion demonstrate such resistance, then there's no way they can stop Sidious from just crushing them. And I'd argue the same for any talented Force user against Forceless mooks.
I can't further agree with this.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Your argument for the Cipher, the Champion, and any other Forceless mook against any truly talented Force user relies entirely on PIS.Look at Vizsla vs. Maul. They have an intense fight wherein Vizsla proved to be an enormous challenge... but Maul didn't use the Force once. Likewise with Ulic Qel-Droma and Mandalore.
It's reasonable to assume that if someone can snap pillars, they can snap necks. Now, if the neck in question belongs to someone who can resist, negate, mitigate, or otherwise blunt Force powers, then I'd agree.
But until the Cipher and the Champion demonstrate such resistance, then there's no way they can stop Sidious from just crushing them. And I'd argue the same for any talented Force user against Forceless mooks.
No, my argument is that they've fought people with the power to do what you're arguing Sidious will do and have demonstrated that they can and will do it in the past..... and they still won.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, what Temp said.Kenobi is a force user and has resistance to TK. Bad example, Neph.
If he is unable to resist Maul choking him or Dooku lifting him clean off the floor then there is no reason he should be able to resist them snapping his neck. 😐
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I can't further agree with this.
No doubt that in a scripted story, a Muggle like Cad Bane or Jace Malcom can threaten, seriously injure, or kill a Jedi or Sith.
But unless otherwise noted, a talented Jedi and Sith has the power to just reach out and break them in half before that happens.
We have to ultimately go with what's on paper. And on-paper, the guys equipped with a wide array of telepathic, telekinetic, and other Force-related powers and generally possess superhuman speed, reflexes, and strength are going to beat the shit out of a gunslinger.
Originally posted by Nephthys
AKA "lets stick our hands in our ears and scream until the facts go away."
Not really, no.
The fact is that against a talented Force adept, Muggles are always the underdog in a mano e mano tussle. Of course they can beat Jedi and Sith, but that requires far more scripting than can be reasonably inferred.
You have not demonstrated that the Cipher and/or Champion can stop Sidious from snapping his fingers and their necks in the same move. It's well within his power to do; nor have you demonstrated that they are fast enough to distract him from doing it with their arsenal of weapons.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Not really, no.
Yes really.
It is canon that they have done this. Complaining about PIS is nothing more than willful ignorance of the facts. Which are: That they have defeated opponents who have the power and will to do exactly what you are arguing through being just too damn good for such tactics to win against them.
You've already tried to argue this point in the Qui-Gon thread and lost.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fact is that against a talented Force adept, Muggles are always the underdog in a mano e mano tussle. Of course they can beat Jedi and Sith, but that requires far more scripting than can be reasonably inferred.
It does not require scripting. Hell, the only one scripting here is you. It just requires us to accept that they are good enough to do it.
quanchi the second
My burden of proof has long been met. Yours has not.
Hardly. I'm asking you for proof that they're capable of resisting his telekinetic attacks or quick enough to distract him from getting one off.
quanchi the second
Show me Sidious snapping someones neck. 🙂
I don't have to, quan. It's reasonable to infer that he can, given his telekinetic feats.