Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No offence, but that storyline was like from 1991 - more recent portrayals have him at higher. in any case, will let you continue searching for the JLA comic, because it sounds uber, and PIS.Its not the Tower of Babel storyline, is it?
so whats if its 1991? should we ignore all his feats that aside of the recent ones? hell in his recent ones he is operating at very low levels so it wont really help your case.
it is a uber PIS but thats batman for you and thats his career, therefor we should judge him as an overall and not by some "wow" feats.
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
313 Kilo with ease = 690.046881 pounds
with easy? he eventually lifts that weight but the scan i posted before shwos how much of a challenge that weight presented to him.
hell that 300 kilos were his nemesis in that story Lol, at frankly? we got real life olympic weight lifters who lift very close to 300 kilos and the record i believe is 350 or something close to that, so by all that showing batman is a high level athlete not even peak human.
Originally posted by wolverinos
with easy? he eventually lifts that weight but the scan i posted before shwos how much of a challenge that weight presented to him.
hell that 300 kilos were his nemesis in that story Lol, at frankly? we got real life olympic weight lifters who lift very close to 300 kilos and the record i believe is 350 or something close to that, so by all that showing batman is a high level athlete not even peak human.
Not with the clean and press, though. Check the records.
Originally posted by SamZED
This is silly. Real world logic doesn't work here.6 or 7 of them surround him at the same time, one roundhouse kick + two punches and all 6 are down. Rinse and repeat. He'll be throwing them around, tossing them at each other and have them trip on one another. Easy.
as i said even in comics there is an extent of logic, otherwise whats good is it to divide stats by categories? lets just make everybody super human and have a fest.
but thats not the way things are, there are ones like batman that belong in the human category even though he got some cartoonish showings.
basically as with batman as with everybody else, he got some cartoonish showings in his comics which can indicate that he is class 100 , but we all know those cartoonish showings dont reflect much.
then there are more calculated showings that make him more of a human when we see batman being injured and tackled by 3 thugs on the street, every street leveler got some of those.
what we are looking for is the middle that really shows us who the character is.
batman while having high stats for a human does not and should not supress the human category.
when ever batman is pitted up against enhanced guys like deathstroke or bane on venom we clearly see he is inferior by stats and this always shows us he is more human than anything.
now as far as the 50 thugs? as i said get the cartoonish nonsense out of your head for a moment and then think rationally.
even though batman has very high stats for a human he is still human in all stats just on a high level.
there is not chance he can react to 6 different directions at the very same time.
and no he cant just toss everybody because the sheer mass and weight is too much for him to handle.
if 300 kilograms is a challenge for him to overcome than he got nothing to look for when facing 50 man.
someone with super human stats can do the things you stated not batman.
and no he cant kick away 6 man with a kick.
can you imagine the force it would take for a kick to swipe away 6 man? let me explain a little.
look at the thai fighter or MMA guys, they kick with full power and the opponent doesnt even move, because the impact is deflected by the mass and resistance of the opponent, the kick can cause internal damage but as far as just swiping someone ? no.
now batman of course is not your average guy and he got feats of kicking away people... i would even give him the benefit of the doubt that his kick can swipe 2 guys off their feet.
however if his kick meets 3 people or like you suggested 6... the sheer mass and resistance of that object constructed off 6 man will stop his leg and he will be taken down.
once again all the things you stated require around deathstroke level of strength and speed which batman doesnt possess.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Not with the clean and press, though. Check the records.
i am talking about guys whi lift weights above their head, i know for a fact the average high level weight lifters lift more than 200 kilograms over their head.
here is an example i found within a second.
a casual strong guy lifting clean 240 kilograms, close to the weight batman struggled so much to lift.
here is a guy deadlifting 300 kilograms.
i know its a deadlift but the scan i posted show batman failing to even deadlift that weight so ....
YouTube video
frankly i dont get why people are so trying to prove batman is a super human which he is clearly not.
the whole point of batman was to portray him as a very skilled and resourceful detective with superior skills and high athletic stats.
he was never meant to be really too much above a human, during his entire history he had fights with very tough goons which were portrayed to be physically stronger then him resulting in batman using skills to defeat the big goon.
i always saw batman as the DC daredevil.
Originally posted by wolverinos
frankly i dont get why people are so trying to prove batman is a super human which he is clearly not.
the whole point of batman was to portray him as a very skilled and resourceful detective with superior skills and high athletic stats.
he was never meant to be really too much above a human, during his entire history he had fights with very tough goons which were portrayed to be physically stronger then him resulting in batman using skills to defeat the big goon.
i always saw batman as the DC daredevil.
Daredevil could take 50 too, and I'm pretty sure has.
Big burly goons being stronger than him stopped being a thing in the 80s-90s, I'd say.
Originally posted by Q99
Daredevil could take 50 too, and I'm pretty sure has.Big burly goons being stronger than him stopped being a thing in the 80s-90s, I'd say.
daredevil has better chances to do it since he is more agile and got his radar senses.
thats the way batman was always portrayed man, he was never meant to be some kind of super human and frankly i dont get the obsession of people with having their character to be stronger than usual.
i mean who cares if batman is not a super human or isnt even a peak human? it doesnt take anything away from him as a character...
Originally posted by wolverinosI agree we should be rational. But not to the point that we start ignoring on-panel showings in order to make sense out of it. You know Batman is peak human so you subcounciosly try to limit him to what peak humans SHOULD be able to do and that just wont work. At some point we gotta accept that a 25 year old athlete with shield training like Jackpot can beat a dozen+ ninjas. There are different levels of peak for each human. Eddie Brock isn't a peak human yet he can lift and toss around 8 police officers who dogpiled on him all ar the same time. So you can bet someone like Batman who's taken training to a whole different level (even by comicbook standarts) can kick 6 people with a single roundhouse, that sure is easier than cracking a huge tree with a kick. Doesnt make sense for a peak human? 99% of things they do doesnt. In fact its really hard to draw a line between top peak humans and low level superhumans in comics. With proper training peak humans consistently perform superhuman feats. You've seen Elektra ripp through a foot thick metal door with her bare hands? Kingpin (current! Not classic) rip people apart literally. At some point we gotta stop trying to make it fall under our RL logic and just accept that peak humans can do that in comics. Someone like Bullseye can kill 50 handninjas all by himself, so why cant Batman handle 50 street thugs? The thing is comicbook peak humans are very much superhuman by our RL standarts.
as i said even in comics there is an extent of logic, otherwise whats good is it to divide stats by categories? lets just make everybody super human and have a fest.
but thats not the way things are, there are ones like batman that belong in the human category even though he got some cartoonish showings.basically as with batman as with everybody else, he got some cartoonish showings in his comics which can indicate that he is class 100 , but we all know those cartoonish showings dont reflect much.
then there are more calculated showings that make him more of a human when we see batman being injured and tackled by 3 thugs on the street, every street leveler got some of those.
what we are looking for is the middle that really shows us who the character is.batman while having high stats for a human does not and should not supress the human category.
when ever batman is pitted up against enhanced guys like deathstroke or bane on venom we clearly see he is inferior by stats and this always shows us he is more human than anything.now as far as the 50 thugs? as i said get the cartoonish nonsense out of your head for a moment and then think rationally.
even though batman has very high stats for a human he is still human in all stats just on a high level.
there is not chance he can react to 6 different directions at the very same time.and no he cant just toss everybody because the sheer mass and weight is too much for him to handle.
if 300 kilograms is a challenge for him to overcome than he got nothing to look for when facing 50 man.
someone with super human stats can do the things you stated not batman.and no he cant kick away 6 man with a kick.
can you imagine the force it would take for a kick to swipe away 6 man? let me explain a little.
look at the thai fighter or MMA guys, they kick with full power and the opponent doesnt even move, because the impact is deflected by the mass and resistance of the opponent, the kick can cause internal damage but as far as just swiping someone ? no.
now batman of course is not your average guy and he got feats of kicking away people... i would even give him the benefit of the doubt that his kick can swipe 2 guys off their feet.
however if his kick meets 3 people or like you suggested 6... the sheer mass and resistance of that object constructed off 6 man will stop his leg and he will be taken down.once again all the things you stated require around deathstroke level of strength and speed which batman doesnt possess.
Originally posted by SamZED
I agree we should be rational. But not to the point that we start ignoring on-panel showings in order to make sense out of it. You know Batman is peak human so you subcounciosly try to limit him to what peak humans SHOULD be able to do and that just wont work. At some point we gotta accept that a 25 year old athlete with shield training like Jackpot can beat a dozen+ ninjas. There are different levels of peak for each human. Eddie Brock isn't a peak human yet he can lift and toss around 8 police officers who dogpiled on him all ar the same time. So you can bet someone like Batman who's taken training to a whole different level (even by comicbook standarts) can kick 6 people with a single roundhouse, that sure is easier than cracking a huge tree with a kick. Doesnt make sense for a peak human? 99% of things they do doesnt. In fact its really hard to draw a line between top peak humans and low level superhumans in comics. With proper training peak humans consistently perform superhuman feats. You've seen Elektra ripp through a foot thick metal door with her bare hands? Kingpin (current! Not classic) rip people apart literally. At some point we gotta stop trying to make it fall under our RL logic and just accept that peak humans can do that in comics. Someone like Bullseye can kill 50 handninjas all by himself, so why cant Batman handle 50 street thugs? The thing is comicbook peak humans are very much superhuman by our RL standarts.
on panel showings? so him hurting wonder women or martian manhunter with H2H is valid because its a showing? wolverine hurting thanos is valid because its a showing? spider man beating firelord is canon because its a showing?
as i said earlier sometimes characters has somewhat of cartoonish feats however if we take the overall feats stats and portrays of the cjaracter then batman is lucky if he will be considered a peak human as far as physical stats go.
no we dont have to accept anything, fact of the matter is batman has the benefit of his skills to aid him vs groups of people, however with such numbers he doesnt have anything to help him here.
in order to win this scenario he got to have super human speed and strength which he doesnt have.
my scenario is 50 people relentlessly attacking him and jumping him, skills or no skills if he doesnt have the physical stats he cant take it.
also batman was hurt by thugs plenty of times during his career and even it was obvious some big goons were physically superior to him strength wise, but of course batman overcame via skills.
i dont limit batman by what i think he should do, i limit batman by his feats and portrayal.
batman within his overall performance is at the very best a peak human , if you think otherwise you are not familiar with the character discussed.
eddie brock tossing around 8 man? really? doesnt make sense please show me that scan if you can i would love to see that.
is he tossing them, all at once? are they on top of him while he is down? or is he just tossing them 1 by 1? are they even trying to take him down? does he have some degree of the symbiot affect? would love to see it.
using ABC logic? some guy named eddie brock got some weird PIS feat, therefor anyone who is suppose to be above him via strength is automatically can supress such a thing by miles? come on you are not new to comics, and just like everybody here you know very well there is some thing called PIS and overall bullshit.
however people choose to use this card when its convenient to them and vise versa.
fact of the matter is you are just using ABC Logic.
in that case i would ask you why do we have the KMC Comic book vs forums? i mean there are plenty of matches that were done in comics or the comics strongly should indicate the outcome right?
i mean things like Cap beating up the rhino and spider man = cap being at the 100 ton class and faster then spider man no? so wait wait... why do we insist that Cap is not at those levels then? why do we debate that there is a PIS? lets just accept everything as in the comics right? black panther almost ripping off silver surfers arm while surfer is helpless FTW.
i hope you understand my point, its like statistics, sometimes you got those edges that are 5% 10%, but the statistics are determined by the vast majority percentage and that reflects the things as they are the most.
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Admittedly, there are faster humans in the pre DCNu verse than that guy, but that's an example of Bruce's ridiculous reaction times and such.But lets be honest, this isn't even a hard fight for Batman. Sure, he's got a numbers disadvantage, but he's still ridiculous. I mean, "random thugs" basically means cannon fodder, and literally all street levelers from Marvel and DC can do this on a regular basis.
I gave him 2 chances to add qualifiers to that statement and he refused; So here is where I point out that Batgirl is both human and faster than Bruce and for an extreme/non-serious example; The Flash is human.
As for Bruce winning this fight, of course he does; I just took exception to h1a8's claim that Batman would win in less than 17 seconds.
Originally posted by wolverinosHow am I using ABC logic? You want to jump from Bullseye beating ninjas to Spider-man beating Firelord and pretend its the same old PIS showing? Well, you can't. Because its not the same. The first example is common consistant display of skill from peak human comicbook character. The second is an outliner with them showing strength theyre normally not capable of. It is perfectly natural for comicbook peak humans to jump several stories into the air, benchpress a lot of weight, dodge bullets, ripp chain and beat on 50 cannon fodder thugs. Its been so for decades and is so consistent a worse display can safely fall under a low showing category. If by this moment in time you arent used to this fact you must not have read that many books because trained peak human handling 50 opponents at the same time is THE norm in most comicbook universes. Bottom line you can pretend as much as you want that comicbook peak humans are the same as RL peak humans and therefore are limited to the same RL logic... they're not. Just because it doesnt fit with your rational theory doesnt make it any less true.
on panel showings? so him hurting wonder women or martian manhunter with H2H is valid because its a showing? wolverine hurting thanos is valid because its a showing? spider man beating firelord is canon because its a showing?as i said earlier sometimes characters has somewhat of cartoonish feats however if we take the overall feats stats and portrays of the cjaracter then batman is lucky if he will be considered a peak human as far as physical stats go.
no we dont have to accept anything, fact of the matter is batman has the benefit of his skills to aid him vs groups of people, however with such numbers he doesnt have anything to help him here.
in order to win this scenario he got to have super human speed and strength which he doesnt have.
my scenario is 50 people relentlessly attacking him and jumping him, skills or no skills if he doesnt have the physical stats he cant take it.also batman was hurt by thugs plenty of times during his career and even it was obvious some big goons were physically superior to him strength wise, but of course batman overcame via skills.
i dont limit batman by what i think he should do, i limit batman by his feats and portrayal.
batman within his overall performance is at the very best a peak human , if you think otherwise you are not familiar with the character discussed.eddie brock tossing around 8 man? really? doesnt make sense please show me that scan if you can i would love to see that.
is he tossing them, all at once? are they on top of him while he is down? or is he just tossing them 1 by 1? are they even trying to take him down? does he have some degree of the symbiot affect? would love to see it.using ABC logic? some guy named eddie brock got some weird PIS feat, therefor anyone who is suppose to be above him via strength is automatically can supress such a thing by miles? come on you are not new to comics, and just like everybody here you know very well there is some thing called PIS and overall bullshit.
however people choose to use this card when its convenient to them and vise versa.fact of the matter is you are just using ABC Logic.
in that case i would ask you why do we have the KMC Comic book vs forums? i mean there are plenty of matches that were done in comics or the comics strongly should indicate the outcome right?
i mean things like Cap beating up the rhino and spider man = cap being at the 100 ton class and faster then spider man no? so wait wait... why do we insist that Cap is not at those levels then? why do we debate that there is a PIS? lets just accept everything as in the comics right? black panther almost ripping off silver surfers arm while surfer is helpless FTW.
i hope you understand my point, its like statistics, sometimes you got those edges that are 5% 10%, but the statistics are determined by the vast majority percentage and that reflects the things as they are the most.
Originally posted by SamZED
How am I using ABC logic? You want to jump from Bullseye beating ninjas to Spider-man beating Firelord and pretend its the same old PIS showing? Well, you can't. Because its not the same. The first example is common consistant display of skill from peak human comicbook character. The second is an outliner with them showing strength theyre normally not capable of. It is perfectly natural for comicbook peak humans to jump several stories into the air, benchpress a lot of weight, dodge bullets, ripp chain and beat on 50 cannon fodder thugs. Its been so for decades and is so consistent a worse display can safely fall under a low showing category. If by this moment in time you arent used to this fact you must not have read that many books because trained peak human handling 50 opponents at the same time is THE norm in most comicbook universes. Bottom line you can pretend as much as you want that comicbook peak humans are the same as RL peak humans and therefore are limited to the same RL logic... they're not. Just because it doesnt fit with your rational theory doesnt make it any less true.
firs of all i brought the example to clarify my point, just because someone has several feats that supposedly put him at some level does not mean we should buy that because that might as well be PIS or rarity, just like the case with batman and feats that can be considered above human.
as a matter of fact the more i am going into his career and now thinking of it, the more i am getting the impression that his physical stats are overrated a bit over here.
batman is indeed above the average human however i dont think he is a peak human... his overall and average showings portray him close but not quite peak human, in many cases big goons were portrayed as actually being physically superior to him.
i think he is probably a bit stronger than punisher but not by much.
ammm no... someone batmans level doesnt jump several stories into the air.
and no its not common for people batmans level to beat 50 thugs.
you know come to think of it... i think you dont really imagine the number 50 and treat it as a fodder because its thugs.
when was the last time batman beat 50 thugs? i know there are plenty of cases he beat up a group of those such as 10 thugs, maybe 20... but 50?
second of all there are circumstances to each case.
sometimes they go 1 by 1.
sometimes he fights them by groups of 2 - 3.
sometimes they dont even expect.
however when was such a scenario where a number close to 50 people attacked him at once and they all were actually trying to hurt him at the very same time showing batman actually dealing with simultaneous attacks comming from such numbers?
come to think of it i dont recall anything similar to that happening.
and thats why i made such scenario, 50 thugs relentlessly going at him from all directions.
Batman stomps..
no reason for this thread to have lasted this long...
Originally posted by -Pr-
Given that Batman could OHKO an average human being, I can see him winning unless they literally all pile on to him at the start.
Batman wouldn't even let that happen, even if it did, Batman is strong enough to kick them off of him