Batman without gadjets vs 50 thugs

Originally posted by wolverinos
firs of all i brought the example to clarify my point, just because someone has several feats that supposedly put him at some level does not mean we should buy that because that might as well be PIS or rarity, just like the case with batman and feats that can be considered above human.

as a matter of fact the more i am going into his career and now thinking of it, the more i am getting the impression that his physical stats are overrated a bit over here.
batman is indeed above the average human however i dont think he is a peak human... his overall and average showings portray him close but not quite peak human, in many cases big goons were portrayed as actually being physically superior to him.
i think he is probably a bit stronger than punisher but not by much.

ammm no... someone batmans level doesnt jump several stories into the air.

and no its not common for people batmans level to beat 50 thugs.
you know come to think of it... i think you dont really imagine the number 50 and treat it as a fodder because its thugs.
when was the last time batman beat 50 thugs? i know there are plenty of cases he beat up a group of those such as 10 thugs, maybe 20... but 50?
second of all there are circumstances to each case.
sometimes they go 1 by 1.
sometimes he fights them by groups of 2 - 3.
sometimes they dont even expect.
however when was such a scenario where a number close to 50 people attacked him at once and they all were actually trying to hurt him at the very same time showing batman actually dealing with simultaneous attacks comming from such numbers?
come to think of it i dont recall anything similar to that happening.
and thats why i made such scenario, 50 thugs relentlessly going at him from all directions.

Originally posted by SamZED
Thats the thing.. Punisher himself is superhuman if we were to apply RL logic. I can imagine the number. And I still say he wins. My point isnt about Batman particularly (not that big of a fan tbh) but rather comicbook peak humans in general. And yes it is perfectly common fr them to do all the things I listed including leaping several stories into the air. Ill put it another way. In real life one can not become Batman by training as much as he did. One can't even become Robin by training twice as much as Batman did. And im talking teen Robin. If 16 year old Robin was somehow teleported into the real world with all the abilities he displayed in comics he would be physicaly superior to every human that ever lived, still lives or will live on Earth. To the point that he'd be punking worlds greatest MMA fighters like children with one hand tied behind his back. And not just 1 on 1 fights. Think that Jet Lee fighting scene, that is how it would look. So yes, I can imagine 50 thugs surrounding and attacking at the same time. And I still say any A or even B list peak human martial artist from comicbook would beat them. Its a mistake trying to apply our real life logic to it.

Lol what? i think you are getting slightly confused here.
i think you are giving average streets way too much credit.
you know a human can outstand many other humans and yet be a human and have other humans to suppress them, thats the whole point with humans, there isnt 1 physical level for all humans and who ever is above that he is super human.
each human vary in different stats and different abilities.
however of course there is a limit no human should or could be able to cross, and beyond that limit this is already a super human category.
thats why even guys such as deathstroke, bane and wolverine are somewhere between super human and enhanced human because they are walking on the line.

well thats your own opinion that batman wins, however considering his stats and abilities based on the majority of history and showings, he cant react to such numbers all attacking him at once and dogpile him, he doesnt have the speed to avoid it nor does he have the strength to get out of it.

it does not matter how much time it took batman or robin become who they are from nobodies, what matters is the overall outcome, it took them that little time to become what they are, but what are they? athletic people with high stats for most of humanity.
however there were many stories showing batman being weaker physically than some big goons which he took with skills and not physical stats, and this is exactly what is discussed here... stats.

jat lee fighting scene? bad logic, basically you imagine like in a jet lee movie the opponents comming at them only 1 by 1 while the others standing aside and waiting for their turn? and thats exactly my point.

You're low selling Batman, he'd be a fully fledged superhuman considering how physics and human biology work. As long as you deny that fact, you've no business discussing Batman here.

Originally posted by Bentley
You're low selling Batman, he'd be a fully fledged superhuman considering how physics and human biology work. As long as you deny that fact, you've no business discussing Batman here.

Originally posted by wolverinos
Lol what? i think you are getting slightly confused here.
i think you are giving average streets way too much credit.
you know a human can outstand many other humans and yet be a human and have other humans to suppress them, thats the whole point with humans, there isnt 1 physical level for all humans and who ever is above that he is super human.
each human vary in different stats and different abilities.
however of course there is a limit no human should or could be able to cross, and beyond that limit this is already a super human category.
thats why even guys such as deathstroke, bane and wolverine are somewhere between super human and enhanced human because they are walking on the line.

well thats your own opinion that batman wins, however considering his stats and abilities based on the majority of history and showings, he cant react to such numbers all attacking him at once and dogpile him, he doesnt have the speed to avoid it nor does he have the strength to get out of it.

it does not matter how much time it took batman or robin become who they are from nobodies, what mthowever there were many stories showing batman being weaker physically than some big goons which he took with skills and not physical stats, and this is exactly what is discussed here... stats.

jat lee fighting scene? bad logic, basically you imagine like in a jet lee movie the opponents comming at them only 1 by 1 while the others standing aside and waiting for their turn? and thats exactly my point.

Watch kiss of the dragon. Four guys attack him at once.....no more, because he's so mobile, and they're all getting in each others way. He takes em all down, using them as human shields etc.

I wanted to answer another point of yours, will do so later, about howyour showing of him sstruggling and ripping his shoulder out should be disregarded now, assuming real world logic.

Originally posted by wolverinos
i am talking about guys whi lift weights above their head, i know for a fact the average high level weight lifters lift more than 200 kilograms over their head.
here is an example i found within a second.
a casual strong guy lifting clean 240 kilograms, close to the weight batman struggled so much to lift.

YouTube video

He struggled to lift it in 1991.

Real world logic, he has become stronger since then. After all, constant weight training should mean I get stronger over time, right?

It's impressive this thread is going on considering Batman has actually done this.

Originally posted by Q99
It's impressive this thread is going on considering Batman has actually done this.

Yes, but we must ignore it.

And use real world logic with a guy who dresses up as a bat.

Originally posted by Q99
It's impressive this thread is going on considering Batman has actually done this.

👆

Originally posted by wolverinos
Lol what? i think you are getting slightly confused here.
i think you are giving average streets way too much credit.
you know a human can outstand many other humans and yet be a human and have other humans to suppress them, thats the whole point with humans, there isnt 1 physical level for all humans and who ever is above that he is super human.
each human vary in different stats and different abilities.
however of course there is a limit no human should or could be able to cross, and beyond that limit this is already a super human category.
thats why even guys such as deathstroke, bane and wolverine are somewhere between super human and enhanced human because they are walking on the line.

well thats your own opinion that batman wins, however considering his stats and abilities based on the majority of history and showings, he cant react to such numbers all attacking him at once and dogpile him, he doesnt have the speed to avoid it nor does he have the strength to get out of it.

it does not matter how much time it took batman or robin become who they are from nobodies, what matters is the overall outcome, it took them that little time to become what they are, but what are they? athletic people with high stats for most of humanity.
however there were many stories showing batman being weaker physically than some big goons which he took with skills and not physical stats, and this is exactly what is discussed here... stats.

jat lee fighting scene? bad logic, basically you imagine like in a jet lee movie the opponents comming at them only 1 by 1 while the others standing aside and waiting for their turn? and thats exactly my point.

I understand all humans got different abilities. But there are things no human is capable of. Not in RL that is. Do I really have to post feats of comicbook peaks that are beyond anything real life humans can do? Figured it's obvious. And I'm not talking about cartoonish high end PIS feats, I'm talking about average consistent feats of comicbook peak humans they display on day to day basis, feats that are clearly way above anything any real human could possibly do. They do all those superhumans feats but by comicbook standarts they are still peak humans, but going by real life physics they'd definitely be considered superhuman. That's the main point we disagree on, you think RL peak humans = comicbook peak humans, I say comicbook peak humans by default are on a whole different level compared to RL ones (again not counting PIS feats) and so far I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise. So let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

It should also be pointed out that it works the other way around as well. Unimportant/fodder characters are LESS effective than real people would be. To wit: no matter how incompetent and weak they are, the sheer weight of bodies when you have a group of 20+ people piling on a street hero should be enough to drag them down (this is especially glaring when you have boy heroes or lightweight females), but it doesn't happen because in comics thugs don't think to just tackle the hero and instead give them room to move and strike.

These kinds of threads are almost always terrible because they invite a clash of logics and don't feature characters with real feats but supposed characters like "X amount of Ys" or "an X with Z power upgrade."

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It should also be pointed out that it works the other way around as well. Unimportant/fodder characters are LESS effective than real people would be. To wit: no matter how incompetent and weak they are, the sheer weight of bodies when you have a group of 20+ people piling on a street hero should be enough to drag them down (this is especially glaring when you have boy heroes or lightweight females), but it doesn't happen because in comics thugs don't think to just tackle the hero and instead give them room to move and strike.

These kinds of threads are almost always terrible because they invite a clash of logics and don't feature characters with real feats but supposed characters like "X amount of Ys" or "an X with Z power upgrade."

Originally posted by Omega Vision
It should also be pointed out that it works the other way around as well. Unimportant/fodder characters are LESS effective than real people would be. To wit: no matter how incompetent and weak they are, the sheer weight of bodies when you have a group of 20+ people piling on a street hero should be enough to drag them down (this is especially glaring when you have boy heroes or lightweight females), but it doesn't happen because in comics thugs don't think to just tackle the hero and instead give them room to move and strike.

These kinds of threads are almost always terrible because they invite a clash of logics and don't feature characters with real feats but supposed characters like "X amount of Ys" or "an X with Z power upgrade."

But I agree, this thread is stupid. It is marginally less stupid than Wolverine vs. grizzly bears.

Or Luke Cage vs Werewolves

Thugs win.