Darth Krayt vs Darth Malgus

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious also says:

"The excerpts from the journal of Darth Malgus kept during the Great Galactic War some thirty-six centuries ago are a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage. The war was an unbounded success for the era's Sith Emperor, and Malgus was one of his best soldiers."
―Darth Sidious

Sidious describes Malgus in the Book of Sith as 'an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been equalled.'

This doesn't allow for a comparison to Bane since Bane has never fought on a battlefield. I used it as a comparison to Vader since Anakin has fought in the Clone Wars and Sidious is well aware of his accomplishments in it. For Sidious to say that Malgus' feats weren't equaled creates a default comparison to Vader, whom Sidious is knowledgeable in terms of abilities.

Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side represents some of the finest embodiment(s) of various ways of Sith:-

Sorzus Syn -> embodiment of exemplary Sith Alchemy
Darth Malgus -> embodiment of exemplary power and combat prowess
Darth Bane -> embodiment of exemplary Sith philosophy
Mother Talzin -> embodiment of exemplary Sith Sorcery
Darth Plagueis -> embodiment of exemplary scientific manipulation of the Force

Of-course, Sidious recognizes the fact that Malgus may have been rivaled by others in power and skill within the Sith Empire he served. However, he regraded Malgus as the greatest embodiment of power and combat prowess among the individuals he considered for his assessment involving Sith teachings.

Clear enough?

I think that you should have a look at this book.

It is safe to assume that Malgus is stronger and superior warrior then Bane, Vader and many other Sith whom Sidious had great deal of knowledge about.

Originally posted by ares834
Although, he is likely over-hyping Malgus.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Either Sidious's claim makes Malgus better than both Bane and Vader, or it makes him better than neither.

Choose wisely, my friend.

Nah.

It makes me sexually excited when you refer to me as your friend.

Originally posted by ares834
Not in a battle. I was referring to his short little fight against some troopers in RoT.

I'd agree. It's a nice accolade but not much more.

Meh. I wouldn't call that a real battle. More like a slaughter. But whatever.

Malgus > Yoda. Sidious says so lololololol!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dark Transfer is an ancient Force application; it is not a new invention since its knowledge goes back to era of Force Wars. So I find it hard to believe that most prominent practitioners of the dark side would have no knowledge of it or do not knew how to handle it. Sith (of True Sith Empire) were specially extremely knowleageable in the ways of the dark side. Heck, even Revan acquired enormous wealth of dark side knowledge during his short reign as Sith.

😄

Well, the purpose of that list is to make a point.

On side note: Decimus is canonically among the greatest Sith warriors of the mythos. Decimus, Thanaton and Malgus are counted among the "champions of battle" within Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia.

Decimus is known to have fought in the front lines and could collapse armies with his sheer mastery of the dark side:

Darth Decimus, known as "the Bastion Lord" by his troops, has a reputation for leading from the front, charging into battle, and breaking apart enemy lines through sheer force of will.

Only the mightiest of the Force-users are capable of making big impact in battles in this manner, collapsing/defeating whole armies with their exploits and capabilities.

This pleases me, at last the head of the Sphere of Military Strategy gets some feats and hype. Also is there anything in there about Darth Arho?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This pleases me, at last the head of the Sphere of Military Strategy gets some feats and hype. Also is there anything in there about Darth Arho?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I think that the destructive potential of this application is being overhyped. It reminds me of Dark Healing application which is very similar in nature; this originally made me assume that Dark Transfer could be just a different name given to Dark Healing application or related since ancient Sith such as Muur and Andeddu seemed to be familiar with its mechanics and taught Krayt about how to refine his mastery over Dark Transfer. Heck, it could just be a rehashed Dark Healing application.

Another point is that the kind of advantage that Krayt held over Cade with knowledge of this application may not be as much in case of another formidable dark side practitioner.

Thats entirely speculative. It 'could' be a you say, but you've given no evidence that it actually is. As far as I know, its treated as a brand new Force power.

Cade is the only one else to be known to possess the technique, and thus can be argued to know of a way to block it. So I would argue it probably does mean that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Being a standout in TOR era is actually a big deal. This is an era in which some of the greatest threats (ever) to the galaxy were eventually foiled. Being Dark Council level is actually a big deal since it is clear from canonical revelation that Dark Council members are typically extremely competent practitioners of the dark side.

The TOR era does have a lot of powerful beings in it, but that does not mean that anyone noteworthy from the era is among the greatest in history. And if it does then being among the greatest in history frankly doesn't mean that much. Decimus has done nothing to back up such a claim.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dark Council members are logically (and evidently) among the most powerful practitioners of the dark side in the mythos.

Theres been over a thousand years of Dark Council members, and theres 12 at a time. For all of them to be counted as such would kind of dilute the concept of being among the best in the mythos, don't you agree?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Note that even the most powerful Jedi of PT era struggled against armies of droids and could effectively undermine them with external aid in most cases. Look no further then Yoda's performance on the first episode of latest TCW series.

I'm unsure of the relevance of this to the discussion of Decimus being named as a 'champion of battle'. I would expect any Dark Council member to be named a champion of battle.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Seriously? How many do you think have dominated armies on their own?

Except Decimus did not do that. According to your quote he 'lead from the front' indicating that he was leading an army. Breaking battle lines is not indicative of dominating armies, jesus. All that refers to is breaking the enemies formation. It literally just means that if the enemy is in a line, then you penetrate a portion of that line, therefore breaking the actual line.

All that quote means is that he was a great warrior who fought at the front lines and broke army formations. You are over-hyping him, as you are known to do.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I would try clarify the confusion involving this matter:-

Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side represents some of the finest embodiment(s) of various ways of Sith:-

[B]Sorzus Syn -> embodiment of exemplary Sith Alchemy
Darth Malgus -> embodiment of exemplary power and combat prowess
Darth Bane -> embodiment of exemplary Sith philosophy
Mother Talzin -> embodiment of exemplary Sith Sorcery
Darth Plagueis -> embodiment of exemplary scientific manipulation of the Force

Of-course, Sidious recognizes the fact that Malgus may have been rivaled by others in power and skill within the Sith Empire he served. However, he regraded Malgus as the greatest embodiment of power and combat prowess among the individuals he considered for his assessment involving Sith teachings.

Clear enough?

I think that you should have a look at this book.[/b]

I think you should read the book. Sidious only refers to the texts he uses as being from those who advanced the cause of the Sith and when talking about Malgus the only thing he really says about him is that he's 'a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage' and noting he's passed Malgus' notes on to Vader.

He never says that they are the embodiment of Sith aspects, in fact Talzin isn't even a Sith in the first place. He chapter only has to do with Nightsister magic.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is safe to assume that Malgus is stronger and superior warrior then Bane, Vader and many other Sith whom Sidious had great deal of knowledge about.

No it isn't. Sidious' opinion does not carry that much weight.

Btw, on the whole 'more competitive era' thing- Revan came from a significantly less competitive era than TOR, yet he was more powerful than two of the TOR Empire's very best, Scourge and Nyriss.

The best of a moderately competitive era are often as strong or stronger than the majority of strong people from even the most competitive eras. Bane or even Kaan would be no pushover in the TOR era, just as Revan wasn't.

S_W_LeGenD
I think that the destructive potential of this application is being overhyped. It reminds me of Dark Healing application which is very similar in nature; this originally made me assume that Dark Transfer could be just a different name given to Dark Healing application or related since ancient Sith such as Muur and Andeddu seemed to be familiar with its mechanics and taught Krayt about how to refine his mastery over Dark Transfer. Heck, it could just be a rehashed Dark Healing application.

Another point is that the kind of advantage that Krayt held over Cade with knowledge of this application may not be as much in case of another formidable dark side practitioner.

Several times it's ability to kill easily is mentioned. Cade threatens Talon with it and comments how easy it would be.

The key divider between Dark Transfer and mere Dark Healing is the ability to cross the lines of death. And, well, the offensive use is different as well, dark healing isn't good for that.

Cade intuitively could do Transfer and thus do what even top Dark Healing practitioners could not, even though they had greater medical knowledge.

One of the key prerequisites to this, and one not many other characters have, is shatterpoints. Healing shatterpoints, or putting the force into someone's shatterpoints and destroying them. All the little lines that keep a person together... that's how it kills. No biological person should be immune.

If Sidious had it in Dark Empire, he would've never had so much problem with his decaying body (or at least not nearly so soon), as Cade and Krayt both heal similarly subtle damage, to lesser or greater extents.

By the way, Muur regarded Vader to be more impressive then Krayt regardless of the latter's supposed greater range and variety and this is sufficient to convince me that Malgus would be above Krayt as well.

Where are you getting this from? Muur never compared Krayt and Vader (he did compare Krayt to 'Skywalker' at one point... and decided he'd much prefer Krayt's body. Probably talking Cade, but it's the only line he said that could be taken as a comparison of the two). I'd say Muur's healing on Vader would put him well above Malgus if he ever said it anyway... which, again, he didn't.

This is one thing that makes me doubt your arguments/conclusions- the making up of stuff. It comes across as bias.

Noted. But the fact remains that these developments left enough fractures in the Republic and the Jedi Order which were eventually exploited by Krayt to gain prominence. I think Krayt deserves nod for being a strategist of some sorts.

The only fracture he took advantage of was the desire to rebuild worlds lost in the Vong war, and hijacking the restoration program to spread his plague. The political schisms of Caedus or the attempts made by the Abeloth didn't even factor in, they'd been long since healed and weren't even mentioned. The Jedi and the Alliance command no longer had a rift.

And what is this excuse about Krayt training under Mr. A and Mr. B and not being able to do much during these times?

Replace 'not being able to' with 'not knowing or caring.'

Why would Krayt even care about the Dark Nest crisis or similar? Let the Jedi handle it and take casualties. He'll build his order.

Keep in mind plenty of powerful sith like the entire Rule of Two lineage and Vitiate worked in the the shadows til the time was right. Why not level the same criticism of Vitiate having no effect on the the Freedon Nadd uprising, the Exar Kun war and similar conflicts? Simple truth was Vitiate was off doing his own thing and didn't care. What matters is when he did care, that's when the impact was huge.

Btw, XoXaan is a 'Ms.', not a Mr., and one of Muur's equals from the Hundred Year Darkness.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats entirely speculative. It 'could' be a you say, but you've given no evidence that it actually is. As far as I know, its treated as a brand new Force power.

Maybe the authors who contributed to legacy lore forgot about existence of Dark Healing application?

Also, how could ancient Sith Lord(s) teach Krayt to achieve mastery over Dark Transfer application without knowledge of its mechanics beforehand?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cade is the only one else to be known to possess the technique, and thus can be argued to know of a way to block it. So I would argue it probably does mean that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The TOR era does have a lot of powerful beings in it, but that does not mean that anyone noteworthy from the era is among the greatest in history. And if it does then being among the greatest in history frankly doesn't mean that much. Decimus has done nothing to back up such a claim.

Decimus "have not been explored much" would be valid argument on your behalf but it is not wise to overlook the canonical hype surrounding him. The fact that he acquired a position in the Dark Council in an extraordinarily competitive era, successfully overlooked the sphere of military strategy for a while and was acknowledged as among the finest warriors, is enough to consider him among the most powerful Force-users of all times. Also, I am not personally hyping him; a canon book have. I don't understand your complain in this case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres been over a thousand years of Dark Council members, and theres 12 at a time. For all of them to be counted as such would kind of dilute the concept of being among the best in the mythos, don't you agree?

TSE may have witnessed hundreds of Dark Council members but this count is abysmal in comparison to enormous number of Force-users that have been part of galactic history throughout in different eras of the mythos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm unsure of the relevance of this to the discussion of Decimus being named as a 'champion of battle'. I would expect any Dark Council member to be named a champion of battle.

Realistically, Decimus faced competition from millions of other Sith but few matched or exceeded him in power and skill.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Except Decimus did not do that. According to your quote he 'lead from the front' indicating that he was leading an army. Breaking battle lines is not indicative of dominating armies, jesus. All that refers to is breaking the enemies formation. It literally just means that if the enemy is in a line, then you penetrate a portion of that line, therefore breaking the actual line.

All that quote means is that he was a great warrior who fought at the front lines and broke army formations. You are over-hyping him, as you are known to do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I think you should read the book. Sidious only refers to the texts he uses as being from those who advanced the cause of the Sith and when talking about Malgus the only thing he really says about him is that he's 'a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage' and noting he's passed Malgus' notes on to Vader.

He never says that they are the embodiment of Sith aspects, in fact Talzin isn't even a Sith in the first place. He chapter only has to do with Nightsister magic.

It is not like as if Sidious believes that Bane sucks in combat. However, his personal assessment is that Malgus was the finest warrior among all the Sith he knew well. Malgus's knowledge of the dark side and combat prowess impressed and intrigued Sidious enough to make it possible for the latter to further hone his own dark side mastery and also inspire/help Vader with such information.

Try to follow the point: each powerful dark side practitioner (featured in the book) served to advance Sidious's understanding of Sith philosophy in its different forms.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't. Sidious' opinion does not carry that much weight.

Heck Darth Venamis is stated by Lord Plagueis that if he existed during Bane's time he'd do incredibly well. So being from a competitive era doesn't mean much, just tougher fodder I'm guessing. Also I agree with Nephtys here, saying that Decimus solo'd armies isn't true, it's just a way of saying that he was a tactical genius.

I doubt he solo'd armies. That feat goes to Lord Marr.

Originally posted by Nephthys
👆 Although I think the gap is a bit larger.

This is arguable. But no doubt Bane is stronger than Mr. Malgy

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, on the whole 'more competitive era' thing- Revan came from a significantly less competitive era than TOR, yet he was more powerful than two of the TOR Empire's very best, Scourge and Nyriss.

Originally posted by Q99
The best of a moderately competitive era are often as strong or stronger than the majority of strong people from even the most competitive eras. Bane or even Kaan would be no pushover in the TOR era, just as Revan wasn't.

Kaan would be a mook in the TSE at any given point; Brotherhood of Darkness represents a decaying Sith Order. Bane's assessment about ancients confirm that they were vastly superior to BOD Sith and I would trust his judgement in this regard.

Originally posted by Q99
Several times it's ability to kill easily is mentioned. Cade threatens Talon with it and comments how easy it would be.

Originally posted by Q99
The key divider between Dark Transfer and mere Dark Healing is the ability to cross the lines of death. And, well, the offensive use is different as well, dark healing isn't good for that.

Originally posted by Q99
Cade intuitively could do Transfer and thus do what even top Dark Healing practitioners could not, even though they had greater medical knowledge.

One of the key prerequisites to this, and one not many other characters have, is shatterpoints. Healing shatterpoints, or putting the force into someone's shatterpoints and destroying them. All the little lines that keep a person together... that's how it kills. No biological person should be immune.

Originally posted by Q99
If Sidious had it in Dark Empire, he would've never had so much problem with his decaying body (or at least not nearly so soon), as Cade and Krayt both heal similarly subtle damage, to lesser or greater extents.

Originally posted by Q99
Where are you getting this from? Muur never compared Krayt and Vader (he did compare Krayt to 'Skywalker' at one point... and decided he'd much prefer Krayt's body. Probably talking Cade, but it's the only line he said that could be taken as a comparison of the two). I'd say Muur's healing on Vader would put him well above Malgus if he ever said it anyway... which, again, he didn't.

Also, what do you mean by Muur's healing on Vader?

Originally posted by Q99
This is one thing that makes me doubt your arguments/conclusions- the making up of stuff. It comes across as bias.

I never claimed to be an expert on Legacy era stuff because I do not read this stuff to be honest. 😄

Originally posted by Q99
The only fracture he took advantage of was the desire to rebuild worlds lost in the Vong war, and hijacking the restoration program to spread his plague. The political schisms of Caedus or the attempts made by the Abeloth didn't even factor in, they'd been long since healed and weren't even mentioned. The Jedi and the Alliance command no longer had a rift.

Originally posted by Q99
Replace 'not being able to' with 'not knowing or caring.'

Why would Krayt even care about the Dark Nest crisis or similar? Let the Jedi handle it and take casualties. He'll build his order.

Keep in mind plenty of powerful sith like the entire Rule of Two lineage and Vitiate worked in the the shadows til the time was right. Why not level the same criticism of Vitiate having no effect on the the Freedon Nadd uprising, the Exar Kun war and similar conflicts? Simple truth was Vitiate was off doing his own thing and didn't care. What matters is when he did care, that's when the impact was huge.

By the way, Vitiate is responsible for several destructive wars:-

1. Mandalorian Wars
2. Jedi Civil War
3. Sith Triumvirate
4. Great Galactic War

After the failure of Kun, Vitiate stepped-up his game.

On a side note: Wars/conflicts/betrayals result in the fall of even the mightiest.

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, XoXaan is a 'Ms.', not a Mr., and one of Muur's equals from the Hundred Year Darkness.

Originally posted by XRKun
But no doubt Bane is stronger than Mr. Malgy

Its effectiveness may vary depending upon the capabilities of the opponent in question. Extremely talented practitioners of the Force are known to form special protective bubbles around them which can make them virtually invincible to most kinds of attacks as long as the bubble lasts or can be held up.

Sure, if you put up a force barrier to prevent him from touching you, that prevents it from being applied for a time. It does require contact to use.

Btw, like, everyone in Legacy knows that move. Cade's used force barrier to survive being in the middle of a giant explosion (Krayt still got him), as has Darth Talon (Krayt's Hand), Darth Azard (one of Krayt's admirals but not as high as his inner circle) and the Imperial Knight Tries Sinde use it too (one of the stronger Imperial Knights, but below Draco). To give you an idea of the level of skill that's floating around in this time period.

Actually no! Bane may do well in many eras but I doubt that even he can do much in lets say Malgus's time or within TSE. Heck, Star Wars: Darth Plagueis asserts that Venamis could do well in Bane's era but he failed in Plagueis's era.

Kaan would be a mook in the TSE at any given point; Brotherhood of Darkness represents a decaying Sith Order. Bane's assessment about ancients confirm that they were vastly superior to BOD Sith and I would trust his judgement in this regard.

I disagree- he failed in Plagueis's era, but only against Plagueis, one of the strongest force users in the galaxy at the time and only slightly weaker than Palpatine would become. That doesn't mean he'd have trouble against the wide majority of Sith in TSE. Just because one fails against the very best hardly makes one weak when compared to sith who, themselves, are hardly the very best. Someone who's a tough fight against Plagueis is likely stronger than the majority of Dark Councilors.

And the Brotherhood of Darkness was decaying, but that does not mean they were lacking in all respects. They were at the tail end of a millennia of war, no-one ever said their skill in lightsabers was lacking, and while the Sith trained by the brotherhood were trained more in sabers than the secrets of the dark side, the leaders were powerful sith who honed their skills as rival warlords. Even as much as Bane disparaged his methods, he did admit that Kaan personally was not weak, and the number of sith he felt were not weak of that era could probably be counted on three fingers.

I am not asserting that Muur directly compared Vader and Krayt but he assessed both and praised Vader more.

Again, where are you getting this from? He spoke a single line of praise of Vader- "This one is strong and willing- he deserves the talisman!". He spends more time egging Morne on to die.

With Krayt, he both greeted him as one great sith to another, and described him as 'riff with the dark side.'

Also, what do you mean by Muur's healing on Vader?

Part of why Krayt wanted the talisman- Muur is an *awesome* good healer, good enough that he could heal Krayt's growths (how Krayt learned how to), where no Sith healer or captured Jedi healer was capable- even Cade didn't have the skill (the raw power, yes, but not the skill).

Muur can heal a good amount of damage in a host body. Maybe not completely, but improve Vader's condition? Certainly.

I covered this before.

This is some counterargument now. I appreciate this line of thinking. However, "not being able to" reasoning is as much valid as "not knowing or caring" reasoning. Krayt was possibly not ready or strong enough or outmatched by opposition to make an impact during the events in which he was not active.

You mean the guy who started forming an order literally 7 years before (meaning at that time, his most skilled apprentice would've only had 7 years of training at best) might not feel he was yet up to taking on Luke Skywalker and his order of badasses who were by that point quite war hardened veterans? And who'd already defeated Palpatine twice?

Vitiate would've gotten his ass beat if he'd stepped up with that little preparation.

Vitiate spent 1,300 years in preparation making his order and empire. Krayt spent 100 years to make his order. I don't think there's any room to criticize 'not getting involved' time there.

By the way, Vitiate is responsible for several destructive wars:-

1. Mandalorian Wars
2. Jedi Civil War
3. Sith Triumvirate
4. Great Galactic War

After the failure of Kun, Vitiate stepped-up his game.

You know, the first three of those were all basically the same plot (manipulate Mandalorians to attack Jedi, corrupt strong Jedi and unleash), and 3 especially is just a continuation of 2, it just happened to play out that others carried on after Revan.

The time separation between 3 and 4 was longer than Krayt's entire preparation, btw.

Also notably, in Krayt's one war, he conquered more of the galaxy in his one than Vitiate in four. Vitiate's maximum expansion was a mere half the galaxy, while Krayt had 80% of his.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It makes me sexually excited when you refer to me as your friend.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, if you put up a force barrier to prevent him from touching you, that prevents it from being applied for a time. It does require contact to use.

Btw, like, everyone in Legacy knows that move. Cade's used force barrier to survive being in the middle of a giant explosion (Krayt still got him), as has Darth Talon (Krayt's Hand), Darth Azard (one of Krayt's admirals but not as high as his inner circle) and the Imperial Knight Tries Sinde use it too (one of the stronger Imperial Knights, but below Draco). To give you an idea of the level of skill that's floating around in this time period.

Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side depicts Malgus overwhelming/killing multiple opponents simultaneously with his Force maelstrom talent with ease.

Originally posted by Q99
I disagree- he failed in Plagueis's era, but only against Plagueis, one of the strongest force users in the galaxy at the time and only slightly weaker than Palpatine would become. That doesn't mean he'd have trouble against the wide majority of Sith in TSE. Just because one fails against the very best hardly makes one weak when compared to sith who, themselves, are hardly the very best. Someone who's a tough fight against Plagueis is likely stronger than the majority of Dark Councilors.

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the council often serve for only a month, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination.*

Now you realize the sheer intensity of the competition that took place in later years of TSE?

This competition was so severe that even "supremely powerful" Sith Lords such as Thanaton could fall in it. The SWTOR Sith Inquisitor story represents this ground reality of TSE.

Dark Council members are not to be underestimated even in comparison to the likes of Plagueis. I won't be surprised by the possibility of some Dark Council members being capable of defeating even Plagueis in single combat.

Also, if a Force-user showed signs of challenging the supremacy of Sith Emperor and was too powerful to be taken out by an Emperor's personal agent, an Imperial Strike Team was often dispatched to eliminate such a threat. Its not easy to become a paragon of TSE by any stretch of imagination; in-fact, TSE presented the most hazardous environment for Sith to compete for power in all times.

Originally posted by Q99
And the Brotherhood of Darkness was decaying, but that does not mean they were lacking in all respects. They were at the tail end of a millennia of war, no-one ever said their skill in lightsabers was lacking, and while the Sith trained by the brotherhood were trained more in sabers than the secrets of the dark side, the leaders were powerful sith who honed their skills as rival warlords. Even as much as Bane disparaged his methods, he did admit that Kaan personally was not weak, and the number of sith he felt were not weak of that era could probably be counted on three fingers.

The only warrior of note in BOD was Kas'im.

Originally posted by Q99
Again, where are you getting this from? He spoke a single line of praise of Vader- "This one is strong and willing- he deserves the talisman!". He spends more time egging Morne on to die.

With Krayt, he both greeted him as one great sith to another, and described him as 'riff with the dark side.'

Originally posted by Q99
Part of why Krayt wanted the talisman- Muur is an *awesome* good healer, good enough that he could heal Krayt's growths (how Krayt learned how to), where no Sith healer or captured Jedi healer was capable- even Cade didn't have the skill (the raw power, yes, but not the skill).

Muur can heal a good amount of damage in a host body. Maybe not completely, but improve Vader's condition? Certainly.

I covered this before.

Originally posted by Q99
You mean the guy who started forming an order literally 7 years before (meaning at that time, his most skilled apprentice would've only had 7 years of training at best) might not feel he was yet up to taking on Luke Skywalker and his order of badasses who were by that point quite war hardened veterans? And who'd already defeated Palpatine twice?

Vitiate would've gotten his ass beat if he'd stepped up with that little preparation.

Vitiate conquered an entire planet by the age of 13, killing thousands in the process without formal training:

The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate.*

One can only imagine the power Vitiate wielded as Sith Emperor. No wonder, he ruled over billions of Sith with iron first.

You do not compare the likes of Krayt with Vitiate. The former seems to be humbled in this comparison.

Originally posted by Q99
Vitiate spent 1,300 years in preparation making his order and empire. Krayt spent 100 years to make his order. I don't think there's any room to criticize 'not getting involved' time there.

The Great Hyperspace War turned out be a disastrous experience for Sith because of infighting and the Jedi wanted to exterminate Sith. Vitiate had to begin from scratch, reform the Sith remnants in utmost fashion, create a galactic superpower in secrecy, and prepare for his ultimate plan to transform himself in to godlike being. This is why he took his time, even though he did began to interfere in the galactic affairs after the failure of Kun.

Originally posted by Q99
You know, the first three of those were all basically the same plot (manipulate Mandalorians to attack Jedi, corrupt strong Jedi and unleash), and 3 especially is just a continuation of 2, it just happened to play out that others carried on after Revan.

Originally posted by Q99
The time separation between 3 and 4 was longer than Krayt's entire preparation, btw.

Originally posted by Q99
Also notably, in Krayt's one war, he conquered more of the galaxy in his one than Vitiate in four. Vitiate's maximum expansion was a mere half the galaxy, while Krayt had 80% of his.

Krayt started a civil war within a fractured Republic and took advantage of it, if I am not mistaken. Its not like as if Krayt had forged his own Empire in secrecy and unleashed it upon a well-prepared and healthy Republic.

In contrast, Vitiate attacked a heavily reformed and healthy Republic along with the Jedi Order at its peak strength in direct fashion (like USA attacking China) with his Empire based assets. In-fact, Vitiate would have finished off the Republic and the Jedi Order after the Sacking of Coruscant but Revan prevented this from happening, resulting in Darth Malgus to plan his rebellion and granting sufficient time to the Jedi Order to dispatch incredibly powerful agents to eradicate the threat of Sith Emperor himself.

When the fallen Jedi known as Darth Revan turned on his former allies and set out to conquer the galaxy in the Jedi Civil War, his unifiied Sith armies easily crushed the Republic's fractious forces in almost every encounter. The Republic's reliance on the Jedi also brought disaster, as most of the Order was wiped out over the course of the conflict. The timely redemption of Darth Revan himself saved the Republic before it could be completely obliterated, but the lesson was clear: The Republic military needed to evolve if it was to survive the conflicts of the future.

As the Republic rebuilt its forces in the decades after the war, those in command went to great lengths to promote unity and camaraderie, Ranks, uniforms, an equipment were standardized as much as possible. Recruitment and training programs became universal, with unit memberships and starship crews intentionally mixed to prevent divisions by species or homeworld. Troops learned to fight alongside Jedi as they always had, but they also trained to fight without any Jedi at all.

These initiatives went on for decades, with more than a few mistakes and adjustments made. But in the end after millennia of scrabbling and inefficiency, the Republic gained a fighting force worthy of its lofty ideals.*

-------
*Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia.

Malgus can not just form powerful protective bubble around himself to bolster his defensive prospects but can also bombard his opponents with lethal Force powers simultaneously. His Force maelstrom talent would be decent enough to overwhelm Krayt and grant him the necessary opening to take his opponent out without much risk.

Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side depicts Malgus overwhelming/killing multiple opponents simultaneously with his Force maelstrom talent with ease.

Oh, Krayt's plenty good at power absorption, he should be able to block that just fine, and even his second-tier commanders can throw up a bubble so it's not like he couldn't do that in return.

You are overreaching again and underestimating the standards set by Vitiate for the paragons of his Empire:

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the council often serve for only a month, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination.*

Now you realize the sheer intensity of the competition that took place in later years of TSE?

Sure, and we've seen despite this, several dark councilors are not all that good in a fight, holding their position via politics, and even their best like Nyress are weaker than Revan, who came from a low competition era.

Also, you're assuming the completely-hand-picked-for-power-in-an-order-that-has-two-enemy-orders-to-deal-with One Sith don't hold their members to very high standards.

Provide complete information about his praise of Krayt.

"A meeting- one on one. Two Great Sith Lords- alone."

"When we are joined, I will heal you. Your power will be mine and mine will be yours. Together we will dominate the galaxy."

(To Draco, who's trying to get the talisman for Emperor Fel, thinking it can be contained) "Pitiful Imperial slave! You want the talisman for your emperor! He is not worthy of it! It is a Sith I desire, one rife with the power of the dark side! After I slay you and your minions, I will impale the Jedi and make Skywalker and his lackeys my rakghoul slaves. Then I will TAKE Krayt's mortal body as my own."

To Morne (trying to convince her to let him take over)- "Face in inevitable and surrender, Jedi. Alone against Darth Krayt, you would fail."

He's really not the gushy-about-others type. His praise pretty much consists of wanting others as a body 🙂

You think that Muur could reconstruct Vader's natural body to an extent that the latter would not need his cybernetic suit?

His limbs would still be cybernetic, but fix a lot of the burns and damage, yes. Perhaps even the lungs.

Vitiate's situation is vastly different to that of Krayt's. Do not mistake Vitiate's patience for lack of personal capability. He was pwning Sith Lords left and right as a child.

Then why are you assuming Krayt's patience, during which he was building an order, is something different?

Vitiate is stronger than Krayt, which is of course no surprise as he's stronger than most everyone, but the rest of the Sith in the era are no Vitiate either. If Krayt was around during that time, he'd easily be one of the strongest.

Also, Vitiate personal capability doesn't change he'd get his ass handed to him by Luke and his order with so little prep. 7 years is not enough time to raise much in the way of minions, and Luke is stronger than the Hero of Tython by that point, let alone Luke and his closest Jedi.

If Vitiate was in Krayt's position with Krayt's resources and attacked when you wanted Krayt to attack, he would lose, badly. I will even note that Abeloth is even stronger than Vitiate in direct combat, and see how that got her.

This is illogical way to compare galactic events. Vitiate's military campaign is vastly different from that of Krayt's in nature and scope.

Krayt started a civil war within a fractured Republic and took advantage of it, if I am not mistaken. Its not like as if Krayt had forged his own Empire in secrecy and unleashed it upon a well-prepared and healthy Republic.

Keep in mind, you were talking 'impact', not how it was done. This is your criteria here. Impact, Krayt's was huge. His method worked.

And Vitiate did try a civil war himself, notably through Revan. That wasn't as successful as Krayt's either.

Ironically even though it's hand selected rather than 'survival of the fittest,' Krayt's Inner Circle is the only Sith leadership council I know with no weak combatants who got in for political reasons. Every single one of them was selected- or even raised- to be strong.

And he's spent a century and a half gathering Sith knowledge to make them as strong as possible. Starting with the holocron of XoXaan, but picking up more whereever he could fine it. Bane era, KotoR era, old Empire era, Palpatine era, and so on.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My observation is that Dark Transfer application is very similar to Dark Healing application. Both applications permit a Force-user to heal and harm.

Maybe the authors who contributed to legacy lore forgot about existence of Dark Healing application?

Also, how could ancient Sith Lord(s) teach Krayt to achieve mastery over Dark Transfer application without knowledge of its mechanics beforehand?

Just like how Nihilus' technique is similar to a standard force drain, but isn't the same technique, perhaps.

Krayt learned the technique from Cade didn't he? I wasn't aware that he was taught it by ancient Sith.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ancients had developed and mastered applications of similar nature so they may know a thing or two about countering these types of applications.

That could be argued, but without evidence I wouldn't buy it personally.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
TOR era witnessed not just co-existence of large number of powerful Force-users but some of the most powerful Force-users (ever) competing for supremacy among themselves. Sith alone numbered in millions and ferociously competed for supremacy amongst themselves. If Decimus managed to gain prominence in this kind of era then this is sufficient reason to acknowledge his extraordinary power and skill.

Decimus "have not been explored much" would be valid argument on your behalf but it is not wise to overlook the canonical hype surrounding him. The fact that he acquired a position in the Dark Council in an extraordinarily competitive era, successfully overlooked the sphere of military strategy for a while and was acknowledged as among the finest warriors, is enough to consider him among the most powerful Force-users of all times. Also, I am not personally hyping him; a canon book have. I don't understand your complain in this case.

Yes, I know. I just disagree with that logic that Decimus MUST be among the best ever just to make it onto the Dark Council. Just because there were millions of Sith does not mean that the best of them MUST be super badasses. He is not directly beating them all or anything, he'd just been able to become more prominent than them and is likely among the best in the Empire. Being the best out of millions does not automatically make you among the best in all of history. Without actual evidence for his abilities that would be a completely premature assessment. You are placing too much importance of the Council.

You are overhyping him, by arguing that a character with almost nothing to his name is among the best ever. Merely being on the Dark Council makes you good, obviously a significantly powerful combatant. It doesn't make you an Anakin Skywalker, a Yoda or a Mace Windu.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith Empire forged by Vitiate contained lot of Force-users at any given time (ranging from thousands to millions). Among these Force-users, only the strongest would typically land a position in the Dark Council and this count would not increase 12 at any given time. I understand that Vitiate set the quality bar too high but even the most powerful of his Empire are vastly outnumbered by lesser gifted Force-users on the whole on holistic level.

TSE may have witnessed hundreds of Dark Council members but this count is abysmal in comparison to enormous number of Force-users that have been part of galactic history throughout in different eras of the mythos.

I understand that, but that doesn't make your argument valid. When I hear 'among the best in history' I think of Darth Bane, Dooku or Darth Nox. Even Maul. I do not think of some random Dark Council member who'd done nothing on-screen to earn the name.

If I was one of the best writers alive today, that would not automatically make me comparable to histories finest authors. You could still say that as a stand out of my age, I would be technically counted among them. If we take it that broudly though, the title ceases to be impressive. No-one is going to be impressed by the 1000th best Sith, when on this forum we are discussing the absolute top of the mythos.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Of-course! But Decimus is counted among the most renowned champions of battle within the book with few prominent rivals including Thanaton, Malgus and Marr.

Realistically, Decimus faced competition from millions of other Sith but few matched or exceeded him in power and skill.

Good for him.

Which makes him better than those millions. No more.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My focus had been on actions of Decimus and not the armies he led. He set examples for his followers during battles by breaking enemy formations with his own power. Try to imagine a lone individual disrupting formations of an army in battlefield; it certainly seems like a big deal. Perhaps a big budget medium is required to depict the awesomeness of this level of fighting potential.

It might seem like a big deal to you, but not to me. I'd expect any top Sith Lord to be capable of doing that if he has an army behind him. Just because he defeated a bunch of soldiers doesn't make him anything special. I wouldn't expect high numbers of mooks to matter to a Sith who is among the best of the era. And even then, the quote doesn't even imply that. There are numerous ways you can disrupt formations without being a flat out combat monster.

I'd laugh if it turns out the Smuggler class defeated him though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The book in question here represents finest embodiment(s) of dark side practitioners in different aspects of Sith philosophy ranging from Alchemy to Sorcery. Among these embodiment(s), Malgus represents an exemplary warrior with unparalleled combat feats and the capability to channel power of the dark side in highly effective ways. All of the predecessors of Sidious featured in the book are powerful Force-users but their specialties differ or have contributed to progress of Sith philosophy in its different aspects.

Malgus' contribution to the book has nothing to do with his combat abilities, outside of the Force Maelstrom (which is in Sidious' section, so its not like Malgus himself talks about it). His section is just his wartime journal. BANE is the one who details combat techniques and lightsaber styles. Rather telling that he is the one Sidious chooses to allow to talk about Force powers and Sith combat, don't you think? 😉

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is not like as if Sidious believes that Bane sucks in combat. However, his personal assessment is that Malgus was the finest warrior among all the Sith he knew well.

No it isn't.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus's knowledge of the dark side and combat prowess impressed and intrigued Sidious enough to make it possible for the latter to further hone his own dark side mastery and also inspire/help Vader with such information.

Yes. Which is good for him. Impressing Sidious doesn;t make you the best ever. Assajj Ventress impressed him, so what?

And Sidious gave it to Vader becuase of how Malgus mirrored him with his Twilek girlfriend and injuries and as an example to Vader by how Malgus improved despite that.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Try to follow the point: each powerful dark side practitioner (featured in the book) served to advance Sidious's understanding of Sith philosophy in its different forms.

Legend, I can follow your points well enough. You don't need to get condescending. Just because Sidious drew inspiration from them does mean 'OMG THEY ARE THE BEST EVER!' Sidious didn't fellate Vitiates abilities in the book, does that mean hes not as good as them? Is Malgus better in a fight? Is Talzin better at sorcery?

No. Malgus is a notable warrior. Talzin is a notable sorceress. Syn is a notable alchemist. They are not the best ever just because Sidious complied a freaking book from their notes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Bane was in place of Malgus, would you have still held this opinion?

Yes. Sidious' opinion is a nice nod to Malgus' prowess, but no more important than Bane's opinion about Revan in my mind.

But other than Sidious commenting on Malgus prowess as a warrior, the guy also has some freakish feats to back it up. He's imo a bit above Vader.

Of course. Malgus is an excellent Sith. The Vader to Vitiates Sidious. But its because of his actual feats, not just Sidious' opinion. Legend is putting far too much weight on such statements AGAIN.