That's the question i'm asking.
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I'm trying to say that people bring up all his, "time and resources," and take that as "embarrassingly low", when he would have succeeded in taking over the galaxy with all his time and resources, had Revan not augmented his already irrational fear of death.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, and that was built through Bane's creation of the Rule of Two, 1000+ years beforehand. Note that I'm not trying to shortchange Palpatine's superior accomplishment in this regard.
And what of Palpatine's accomplishments is directly attributable to Bane? Nowhere are any visible gains for the Grand Plan said to be made until the coming of Plagueis.
In fact, the titular novel suggests that sabotage from Darth Gravid and errant adventures from Tenebrous and his Master undermined the Grand Plan's efforts more than aided.
In other words, Palpatine inherited the unattested gains and the attested errors of his predecessors and make do.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, but you cannot trash Vitiate for his failure to succeed despite his time and resources, thank Revan for ****ing with him.
Says who?
Revan successfully exploited his enemy's weakness and mindhaxx3d the great mindhaxx3r. You can trash any villain for failing; that's the point.
What Vitiate managed to accomplish is startlingly negligible compared to the time and resources at his disposal.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why exactly are you two arguing who had more impact and how competitive their eras were? This is a versus battle. You know, when people fight each other.
They're what SW Legend is using to argue Malgus as stronger, and yes, I agree it's a bit silly.
I'll just list some stuff Krayt is very good at in fights:
Illusion. Out-illusioned Wyyrlok, who in turn out-illusions Andeddu, who was so good with illusion he could kill people with phantasmal damage alone.
Sabers. Even as a Jedi he was a high-level saber monkey. He got a lot more experience and a lot stronger as a Sith.
Shatterpoints. Often a nice tie-breaker. In situations where things are otherwise near-even, the one who can see the weakpoints wins.
Energy absorption. Catching force lightning (from Wyyrlok again) bare-handed is something only about a half-dozen characters have done, and he's one of them.
Dark Transfer. Grab someone they're dead. Get a small wound and heal it on the spot. Get a mutual kill and come back from the dead. Very useful, unique to him & Cade.
He's also shown good defense against TK (Cade has shown much stronger TK than Malgus, and Krayt's defended it with no prob), though he personally doesn't use it much.
Oh, and to add to his accomplishments:
-He's turned two stone pillars into rubble with FL, and has also used FL to kill a group of Yuuzahn Vong warriors instantly.
-He's speedblitzed 3 Imperial Knights while suffering from diminished health--The Imperial Knights are a very selective order and practically all of it's members are elite.
-He's ragdolled both Cade and Nihl. When ragdolling the former, the sheer force of when he pulled him brought down a nearby pillar.
-Basically completely outmatched Cade and Wyyrlok as duelists. These two are basically the respective best Jedi/Sith in the galaxy in this regard sans Krayt, so yeah.
He should be a pretty good match for Malgus. These two have very similar levels of ability.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
^Out Illusion'd Wyyrlok? No he didn't. Out Illusion'd Andeddu? No, he didn't. Krayt powered through Wyyrlok's illusion with sheer Force of will, and Wyyrlok defeated Andeddu by burning his ancient studies which led to his ridiculous death.
Note in the scene when under Wyyrlok's illusion, his hands were clearly empty- then when he revealed he was stronger than Wyylok thought, he had lightsabers in both hands. I mean, I guess it *could* be an absurdly fast quickdraw, but I think it was intended to be illusion-within-an-illusion.
As for Andeddu, Wyyrlok presented Andeddu with an illusion of him destroying Andeddu's life and then consumed Andeddu himself in an illusion of fire and lava, which killed him and destroyed his spirit.
Upon Andeddu's death, the library was completely intact, nothing was burned, and Andeddu's corpse was just sitting there in an undamaged room.
So the first, I could see an argument either way, but Wyyrlok is definitely good enough to kill a powerful Sith Sorcerer in an illusion fight.
Krayt did also hit Cade with a whole big vision while killing/reviving him.
-He's speedblitzed 3 Imperial Knights while suffering from diminished health--The Imperial Knights are a very selective order and practically all of it's members are elite.
Four 🙂 All of whom were the Emperor's personal bodyguards, one of whom was the Emperor's cousin, and who had him surrounded before they all died to his blade.
Originally posted by Q99
Problems: The Exiles, from what we've seen, are incredibly impressive even by Dark Council levels, and Darth Vader worried that he could use Muur to beat Palpatine... only for Muur to then dominate him as a new master instead.
I think that you underestimate Dark Council members. Based on holistic evidence, they are much more proven bad@sses in comparison to majority of the other Force-users in the mythos. It is rare for an outsider to match a Dark Council member in bad@ssry.
Dark Council members are known to be telekinetic powerhouses, control/influence entities, utterly destroy other "powerful" Force-users with their dark side powers, undermine whole armies with their dark side abilities (if on battlefield), specialize in the field of Sith Sorcery and more. These Sith are canonically acknowledged as the most powerful dark side practitioners in the galaxy (barring Vitiate).
Originally posted by Q99
There's also a big drop to immediately after the Exiles for no clear reason I can tell... and also, we've got nothing placing Andeddu that early, rather than, say, between Tulok and Ragnos.
Andeddu is most likely a predecessor of Tulak Hord. It was Tulak Hord who significantly improved the dueling standards of Sith and he also contended with the threat of Jedi in his era. I don't think that the Jedi learned about existence of Sith during Andeddu's reign and neither it is apparent from any canonical hint that those who served Andeddu were master swordsmen.
Originally posted by Q99
Additionally, while Andeddu's combat prowess was low, consider this: Not only was he able to give himself biological immortality, but he was so good with illusions he could kill with it. Even by TOR standards, you're not going to find many who could kill with illusions alone, and that's just Andeddu.
I personally respect Andeddu's dark side knowledge but his personal capabilities have been overhyped in legends.
Originally posted by Q99
Finally, Legacy does not *just* have direct comparison to the old Empire- who I will note often gets talked up even in TOR as incredibly powerful- but also KotoR (one of the stronger masters from then, when amped and aged, was no match for weaker armored Krayt), Clone Wars, and the New Jedi Order eras.
Originally posted by Q99
When the most powerful Jedi of all time acknowledges a character as very power... and then they not only gain more experience but a flat-out major power post, then that character is pretty strong.
Originally posted by Q99
Actually, I think he's around equal to several more not on that list. I have said quite a few other force users would be epic fights for him.But yes, those are the list of ones that are clearly better than him, and the next tier down includes Krayt, Revan, and other exceptional sith.
You need to prove that Krayt is a match for Malgus; the reasons that you have provided thus far are not sufficient to warrant him even this position. Their is more holistic evidence of even Meetra Surik being superior warrior then Krayt then otherwise.
Originally posted by Q99
Because, one, he's the strongest in an era that's had comparisons to multiple other eras, and two, he's accomplished things than even incredibly powerful sith have not. Control over life and death is no small feat.
You are overhyping Krayt's supposed control over matters of life and death because Cade struck him down with a lightsaber and then arranged for destruction of his body, and this was enough. I have pointed out to you before that Sion rivaled Krayt in these aspects and Meetra Surik stopped him.
I recall Vader's amusing words:
"There is very little that cannot be solved with a lightsaber."
Originally posted by Q99
He transcended death, was a peerless combatant in his time, and conquered the galaxy. What more do you want? Both in force understanding and accomplishments he stands at a very high level.
Krayt seems to be on par with Sion on the basis of holistic evidence in the context of personal capabilities, which is very good position.
Originally posted by Q99
To throw your 'why' back at you, why should I rate the non-Vitiate TOR Sith who haven't done more in the force and haven't done nearly as much impact higher?
Originally posted by Q99
I do believe you simply are trying to hold Krayt to a higher standard before admitting him as even an equal. Characters of different eras should still be judged by the same standards.
Originally posted by Q99
Shatterpoints, no tanking- Cade used shatterpoints to destroy even believed-to-be-indestructable objects inhabited by Karness Muur, let alone bodies.
Keep in mind that if the Force can be used to destroy effectively, it can also be used to protect effectively.
Originally posted by Q99
Yes it'd kill them if he used it. That's what it does, and that's one part of why he's so dangerous. He has an almost certain kill ability.And again, this is if it was successfully applied.
I believe that Cade successfully used DT application on Darth Talon once? However, I have come to know that Darth Talon got injured sometime before this event and Cade used DT application to reopen her former injuries which had been "freshly treated" and were therefore vulnerable to exploitation by DT application. In the nutshell, DT application have offensive uses but in circumstantial way. I doubt that he can destroy much powerful Force-users with this application in the manner as you are trying to propagate here.
Originally posted by Q99
Would he actually get a chance to use it on Sidious or Luke? Not very likely! Not without a whole ton of luck. It is an ability that requires good direct contact.
Originally posted by Q99
By 'fractures' we are just talking 'worlds in need of repair'. The
political fractures? He made them.
Oh wait! After the fall of Sidious, two prominent galactic forces existed in the galaxy:
- Rebellion which shaped itself into Galactic Federation.
- Remnants of the Galactic Empire who shaped themselves into Fel Empire.
Since neither was able to overcome other in the original conflict so a truce was reached between them? After the invasion of Vong, these two forces eventually formed an Alliance known as Galactic Alliance to counter additional (possible) external threats more effectively? But this Alliance was already fractured due to mindset of Imperials? And Krayt exploited this situation to his advantage after no major threat existed to keep him under check (e.g. Sidious, Caedus, Luke, Ben and vice versa)? Hmm. It all makes sense now.
Heck, my assessment makes sense; Krayt benefitted from the previous developments which eventually paved way for his rise to prominence. If Krayt were to exist in a different era like ancient ones, he wouldn't have accomplished much.
Originally posted by Q99
And of course, TOR heavily relied on existing fractures themselves, Revan's rise was only possible due to the deep division in the Jedi caused by the Exar Kun war that caused them to ignore the Mandalorians, so this is just a case of inconsistent standards.
Both The Republic and Jedi Order had recovered from Exar Kun's war within a span of 50 years, if I am not mistaken. Both forces had ample strength to contend with the threat of Mandalorians under right leadership (a role which was filled by Revan). If Revan had not acted, it may have been too late otherwise because Mandalorians were a major fighting force during this time and only fools would have underestimated their threat. Revan's rise to prominence can be blamed on actions of Vitiate rather then on Kun.
Also, Vitiate directly attacked The Republic in a time period when it was absolutely healthy and prepared for any eventuality; same goes for the Jedi Order; thanks to efforts of Revan and Surik.
Originally posted by Q99
And by 'dialing down' of competition you mean an entire rival order rising as competition. Not to mention, several of their Jedi masters were original ones from the Clone Wars, so knowledge is not going to be lost.
Originally posted by Q99
There were 7 years of constant war against multiple orders, Jedi and Imperial Knight. Not only is there no sign of the Jedi being out of practice in advance, but they certainly wouldn't be after that.
Originally posted by Q99
The Legacy era is a high-competition era where one of the key elements was a multi-sided war between force users, whether you like it or not.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Palpatine did in ~50 years what Vitiate couldn't accomplish in over a thousand. It is pathetic, frankly. Still better than what most Sith brought to the table, but that goes to show how lame the Sith are as a collective.Why would anyone want to be one?
Palpatine existed in a time when Sith had learned valuable lessons from past developments and adopted a new strategy to contend with the threat of the Jedi. The Sith went into hiding and exploited the rampant corruption within The Republic to their advantage to accomplish their objectives. The Republic had disbanded its military might after the victory of Ruusan which resulted in power struggles within its systems and left them open to exploitation by external forces. Then came Plagueis who was prominent with the Banking Clan and helped Palpatine gain prominence in political matters of The Republic. The Jedi Order slowly but surely "grew out of touch" with its ways during this era of peace and this decay led to disillusionment within its own ranks (e.g. Dooku resigned from the Jedi Order due to the aforementioned reasons). On top of this, Plagueis and Palpatine jointly performed a ritual which further clouded the judgment of the Jedi Order. Now with Palpatine at the helm of the affairs with support from his Sith Master, he managed to successfully exploit the internal rifts of the dialed down Republic and disillusioned Jedi Order and the rest is crystal clear.
Vitiate's performance cannot be evaluated in the same manner as that of Palpatine's because his situation was vastly different from that of the latter in reach of the galactic affairs. Vitiate did came (very) close to eradicating both the Jedi Order and The Republic by orchestrating conflicts such as the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. However, Revan and Surik managed to foil Vitiate's plans, and when Vitiate eventually made another decision, it was too late: Both The Republic and the Jedi Order had fully recovered after during the gap between Jedi Civil War and The Great Galactic War and even reformed themselves to great degree to make sure that they will not fail again in a long time. Even though Vitiate managed to successfully plant lot of his agents within these forces after the Jedi Civil War and was once again close to eradicating both, Revan prevented this from happening again by influencing Vitiate to not capitalize on the achievement of Sacking of Coruscant and this led to internal fractures within his Empire with several Sith Lords planning to take matters in their own hands. On top of this, The Force have its own will; when the Vitiate was about to reach too high by attempting to consume the entire galaxy, the seeds of his downfall had been sown by the will of The Force itself.
In the nutshell, both Sidious and Vitiate were brilliant tacticians and masters of the Force but the former was more fortunate then the latter in reach of galactic affairs.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Oh, and to add to his accomplishments:-He's turned two stone pillars into rubble with FL, and has also used FL to kill a group of Yuuzahn Vong warriors instantly.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
-He's speedblitzed 3 Imperial Knights while suffering from diminished health--The Imperial Knights are a very selective order and practically all of it's members are elite.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
-He's ragdolled both Cade and Nihl. When ragdolling the former, the sheer force of when he pulled him brought down a nearby pillar.
- Malgus once blew apart the portion of rubble in different directions that fell over him during the collapse of two buildings around his position.
- Malgus could send even the mighty Satele Shan packing with his telekinetic abilities.
I am sure their are more examples.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
-Basically completely outmatched Cade and Wyyrlok as duelists. These two are basically the respective best Jedi/Sith in the galaxy in this regard sans Krayt, so yeah.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
He should be a pretty good match for Malgus. These two have very similar levels of ability.