Darth Krayt vs Darth Malgus

Originally posted by Q99
Oh, Krayt's plenty good at power absorption, he should be able to block that just fine, and even his second-tier commanders can throw up a bubble so it's not like he couldn't do that in return.

You seem to have no idea about how destructive Force Maelstrom application is; Sidious could conjure up Force Storm Wormholes by extrapolating this application. The effectiveness of some Sith applications depends upon the anger of a dark side practitioner. Malgus is known to get in the zone with anger and he is virtually unstoppable at that moment. Sidious have also been enormously potent because he learned to harness his anger to extreme levels; he even wrote a book about this.

Their is virtually nothing that Krayt can dish out that Malgus does not have a counter against. In-fact, Malgus is most likely to overwhelm Krayt in his zone condition if nothing else works.

Krayt's only impressive victory is over Wyyrlok who doesn't seems to be a standout in comparison to paragons of TOR era. You need more then this showing to make a case for Krayt to suggest that he can give Malgus decent fight, let alone edge him out.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, and we've seen despite this, several dark councilors are not all that good in a fight, holding their position via politics, and even their best like Nyress are weaker than Revan, who came from a low competition era.

And what makes you assume that Nyriss represents the pinnacle of Dark Council members? I don't think that the author ranked her or declared her to be the strongest Dark Council member even in her era alone. However, even she seems to be superior warrior then the likes of Krayt and Wyrrlok since she dominated two (major) heavyweights without much difficulty in a duel. Her failure against Revan in no way or form suggests that she would falter in similar manner against other remarkably powerful Force-users (under right circumstances) who are not Revan.

Revan is a remarkably powerful Force-user by all accounts (I think that you underestimate him a lot since you assume that being below Revan implies that such a Force-user is also weaker then your favorites from legacy era; you need to let go of this delusion); Revan is not incredibly dangerous because of his raw power but rather due to his exceptional command of the Force. He is known to manipulate the Force in ways like most cannot and he can be incredibly potent with his unique talents (he managed to combine the positives of both the light and dark philosophies in a masterful way and it is implied that he would have reformed the Jedi Order in ways like no other, if his teachings were accepted by the Jedi Council of his time but this was not to be unfortunately). Revan versus Nyriss is a complex matter; Revan put Nyriss in a disadvantaged position with his Force Mastery when he formed a loop between them with the latter's power because the latter could was already preoccupied with an attacking action. It can be argued that Revan is superior to Nyriss in defensive aspects of the Force at least but I am not so sure about his supposed superiority in raw power aspect over her. Sometimes, techniques alone (if supported with sufficient raw power) can be the ultimate deciding factor in a confrontation.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, you're assuming the completely-hand-picked-for-power-in-an-order-that-has-two-enemy-orders-to-deal-with One Sith don't hold their members to very high standards.

Originally posted by Q99
"A meeting- one on one. Two Great Sith Lords- alone."

"When we are joined, I will heal you. Your power will be mine and mine will be yours. Together we will dominate the galaxy."

(To Draco, who's trying to get the talisman for Emperor Fel, thinking it can be contained) "Pitiful Imperial slave! You want the talisman for your emperor! He is not worthy of it! It is a Sith I desire, one rife with the power of the dark side! After I slay you and your minions, I will impale the Jedi and make Skywalker and his lackeys my rakghoul slaves. Then I will TAKE Krayt's mortal body as my own."

To Morne (trying to convince her to let him take over)- "Face in inevitable and surrender, Jedi. Alone against Darth Krayt, you would fail."

He's really not the gushy-about-others type. His praise pretty much consists of wanting others as a body 🙂

Muur actually noted Vader's great strength and commented on it accordingly when they met. Vader is possibly stronger then Krayt as well, it seems.

Originally posted by Q99
His limbs would still be cybernetic, but fix a lot of the burns and damage, yes. Perhaps even the lungs.

Originally posted by Q99
Then why are you assuming Krayt's patience, during which he was building an order, is something different?

Originally posted by Q99
Vitiate is stronger than Krayt, which is of course no surprise as he's stronger than most everyone, but the rest of the Sith in the era are no Vitiate either. If Krayt was around during that time, he'd easily be one of the strongest.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, Vitiate personal capability doesn't change he'd get his ass handed to him by Luke and his order with so little prep. 7 years is not enough time to raise much in the way of minions, and Luke is stronger than the Hero of Tython by that point, let alone Luke and his closest Jedi.

The leadership of LTOS gave even (prime) Luke trouble, forcing him to flee at one point after flooring him with FL. In contrast, Vitiate crushed the most powerful (Golden era) Sith Lord in his homeworld like a putty. Do the math.

By the way, how well was Luke coping with the dark side environment of Dromund Kaas when he landed on this planet?

Originally posted by Q99
If Vitiate was in Krayt's position with Krayt's resources and attacked when you wanted Krayt to attack, he would lose, badly. I will even note that Abeloth is even stronger than Vitiate in direct combat, and see how that got her.

The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.

Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial space vanished without a trace, but few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more than a brilliant strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.*

Abeloth isn't actually superior combatant then Vitiate; she is rather reckless and miscalculating. And Vitiate have counter to all kinds of moves of Abeloth since he could exist in both materialistic and spiritual realms and his mastery of the dark side trumps that of Krayt:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon the long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by the arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already on the precipice of the dark side. It took a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

Revan was eventually captured by the Jedi who suppressed his memories and restored him to the light side, sending him to defeat Malak. In the aftermath of the horrific conflict Revan began to recover his memories, and realized that the Sith Emperor was still hiding in the galaxy's unexplored regions. He set out alone to stop him once again... and never returned. Centuries later, the Empire invaded Republic space, still led by the seemingly-immortal Sith Emperor.*

Your assumptions are amusing. In-fact, Vitiate can give Abeloth more trouble then all of the Force-users put together whom she actually confronted. Heck, Vitiate have the option to transform other Force-users such as Jedi and Sith to his minions and unleash them upon Abeloth to undermine her eventually along with his personal aid. On top of this, Vitiate is a mastermind and he would rather be very calculative about how to contend with threat of Abeloth. So don't foolishly assume that Vitiate would fail to do better then Krayt in the latter's time period.

Originally posted by Q99
Keep in mind, you were talking 'impact', not how it was done. This is your criteria here. Impact, Krayt's was huge. His method worked.

Originally posted by Q99
And Vitiate did try a civil war himself, notably through Revan. That wasn't as successful as Krayt's either.

Every canon source suggests that Jedi Civil War brought the Republic and the Jedi Order to brink of extinction. You need to stop underestimating TOR era developments.

Originally posted by Q99
Ironically even though it's hand selected rather than 'survival of the fittest,' Krayt's Inner Circle is the only Sith leadership council I know with no weak combatants who got in for political reasons. Every single one of them was selected- or even raised- to be strong.

And he's spent a century and a half gathering Sith knowledge to make them as strong as possible. Starting with the holocron of XoXaan, but picking up more whereever he could fine it. Bane era, KotoR era, old Empire era, Palpatine era, and so on.

Want me to enlighten you with some examples?

Really?

Every canon source suggests that Jedi Civil War brought the Republic and the Jedi Order to brink of extinction. You need to stop underestimating TOR era developments.

Oh yea, it was bad. The Republic was not reduced to a roving fleet operating in secret, though. The Jedi were hurt worse in the KotoR era than the Legacy era, the Republic was hurt worse in the Legacy era.

It also took multiple wars to reduce the Jedi so low, and the lowest was under the Triumvirate, not Vitiate. The Jedi efforts to replenish numbers fast after Exar Kun, resulted in them making some foolish mistakes like allowing independent training on other worlds, resulting in the Jedi Covenant, causing an internal conflict costing Jedi shortly before the Mandalorian war, which then depleted them more. Follow by Revan, followed by the Triumvirate.

And then in the TOR era itself, the Jedi and Republic successfully held half the galaxy, ironically getting no-where as near to the edge as they did during the KotoR era. Which I guess goes to show, coups and civil wars beat outside conquest for getting things done.

Well, Krayt was a strategist of some sorts and waited out formidable opposition to dial down before he decided to act himself. Of-course, his impact would have been great in such a time period.

Actually, he didn't wait for the opposition to dial down much to speak of. Things got more stable and the Jedi more plentiful.

No, what he waited for was for his forces to dial up and for an opportunity to throw the galaxy against the Jedi. His plan was based on him making the One Sith ready, he didn't wait for an exterior conflict to make an opportunity or for the Jedi to get complacent (the Jedi, in fact, were very much more prepared for Sith than, say, the Clone Wars Jedi were. Even when things turned against them they had contingencies ready).

Vitiate's Dark Council members are still more impressive then these.

Want me to enlighten you with some examples?

No, I'm pretty familiar. And more specifically, some of the Dark Council members are more impressive. Others are not.

Darth Wyyrlok, were he in the TOR era, would have no problem taking and holding a senior seat in the council and standing shoulder to shoulder with some of the stronger Dark Councilors. As a duelist he's high-level, his illusion powers are deadly, and he's just all around strong.

The strong Dark Councilors are indeed strong. They simply aren't the only ones who are.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just like how Nihilus' technique is similar to a standard force drain, but isn't the same technique, perhaps.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Krayt learned the technique from Cade didn't he? I wasn't aware that he was taught it by ancient Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That could be argued, but without evidence I wouldn't buy it personally.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, I know. I just disagree with that logic that Decimus MUST be among the best ever just to make it onto the Dark Council.

Analogy: a Dark Council member who is 5th best in his/her era (among thousands) can be 2nd best in another era (among thousands). Now extend this argument to entire galactic history and this individual is still likely to be above enormous number of Force-users holistically. Dark Council members have rather proven their bad@assry by becoming one unlike many other Force-users in different eras who rose to prominence in different ways.

Get my drift?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because there were millions of Sith does not mean that the best of them MUST be super badasses. He is not directly beating them all or anything, he'd just been able to become more prominent than them and is likely among the best in the Empire. Being the best out of millions does not automatically make you among the best in all of history. Without actual evidence for his abilities that would be a completely premature assessment. You are placing too much importance of the Council.

Force-users, by default, are among the most gifted potential warriors in the galaxy. Now if these number in millions (extraordinarily high count for co-existence of Force-users in galactic history by the way) and compete with each other for supremacy then the top ones among these are logically expected to be among the most powerful Force-users of all times. Since this setting is likely to stress and test Force-users in toughest possible manner which would not be the case in other eras. So if a Force-user proves his potential in an era which presents toughest competition for him/her to prove his/he metal then their is no room left for further argument against credibility of such a Force-user in historical context as well.

Dark Council members typically have to go through a lot to become one in the first place. Some Sith have spend their entire lives attempting to become one but couldn't. I do not dismiss the possibility of exceptional cases as well such as direct appointments as per need of the hour but even these individuals have to compete to survive in the long run.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You are overhyping him, by arguing that a character with almost nothing to his name is among the best ever. Merely being on the Dark Council makes you good, obviously a significantly powerful combatant. It doesn't make you an Anakin Skywalker, a Yoda or a Mace Windu.

1. Became a Dark Council member after proving his worth
2. Recognized as among the greatest champions of the Sith
3. Known to perform remarkably well during combat situations

Aren't you not paying attention to provided information?

Decimus is just like a Skywalker or Yoda or Windu or vice versa.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I understand that, but that doesn't make your argument valid. When I hear 'among the best in history' I think of Darth Bane, Dooku or Darth Nox. Even Maul. I do not think of some random Dark Council member who'd done nothing on-screen to earn the name.

- Dooku really had it easy specially.
- Bane at-least worked his way up the ladder in a Sith Academy.
- Maul received tough training from Sidious but no competitors either.

In comparison, a typical Dark Council member had to go through following:-

1. Competition in the Sith Academy
2. Competition outside Sith Academy after graduation
3. Competition even after becoming a Dark Council member

Get it?

Originally posted by Nephthys
If I was one of the best writers alive today, that would not automatically make me comparable to histories finest authors. You could still say that as a stand out of my age, I would be technically counted among them. If we take it that broudly though, the title ceases to be impressive. No-one is going to be impressed by the 1000th best Sith, when on this forum we are discussing the absolute top of the mythos.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good for him.

Which makes him better than those millions. No more.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It might seem like a big deal to you, but not to me. I'd expect any top Sith Lord to be capable of doing that if he has an army behind him. Just because he defeated a bunch of soldiers doesn't make him anything special. I wouldn't expect high numbers of mooks to matter to a Sith who is among the best of the era. And even then, the quote doesn't even imply that. There are numerous ways you can disrupt formations without being a flat out combat monster.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd laugh if it turns out the Smuggler class defeated him though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus' contribution to the book has nothing to do with his combat abilities, outside of the Force Maelstrom (which is in Sidious' section, so its not like Malgus himself talks about it). His section is just his wartime journal. BANE is the one who details combat techniques and lightsaber styles. Rather telling that he is the one Sidious chooses to allow to talk about Force powers and Sith combat, don't you think? 😉

The writings that I have collected in this volume appear in their original forms. Many are fragments of what once were longer works, but the preservation of what remains is less important than the recognition of how they led to my new vision of the Sith Order. The following three books - The Weakness of Inferiors, The Book of Anger, and The Manipulation of Life - present how I achieved absolute power, how I shall maintain it through the agency of my Galactic Empire, and how I will reshape the galaxy throughout the ages to come.*

Malgus inspired Sidious to author "The Book of Anger," which is focused on the subject of learning to harness and utilize the power of the dark side in hugely impressive ways.

A glimpse of the aforementioned book:

In contrast, Darth Bane and Mother Talzin mainly inspired Sidious to author "Weakness of Inferiors," while Darth Plagueis and Sorzus Syn inspired Sidious to author "The Manipulation of Life."

In "The Book of Anger," Sidious mentions Darth Bane only in the context of his Rule of Two philosophy.

Sidious also notes this:

"For it is in the anger Force-users are strongest."

We have actual evidence of Malgus being able to use his anger to bolster his capabilities to extreme levels. He is known to go "in the zone" in this manner and become virtually unstoppable at that moment. In this manner, Malgus utterly dominated many impressive adversaries during combat situations or inflicted lot of devastation.

Here is some interesting information:

"The strength of my scream buckled the bridge's transparisteel viewport and left the crew's ears bleeding. More gratifyingly, my rage overloaded the fuel slugs of an incoming wave of Aureks. The bright bursts of their deaths raised a smile."

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it isn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. Which is good for him. Impressing Sidious doesn;t make you the best ever. Assajj Ventress impressed him, so what?

The example of Ventress is a lame one because I don't think she inspired him or taught him anything. He actually regarded her as an underling.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And Sidious gave it to Vader becuase of how Malgus mirrored him with his Twilek girlfriend and injuries and as an example to Vader by how Malgus improved despite that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Legend, I can follow your points well enough. You don't need to get condescending. Just because Sidious drew inspiration from them does mean 'OMG THEY ARE THE BEST EVER!' Sidious didn't fellate Vitiates abilities in the book, does that mean hes not as good as them? Is Malgus better in a fight? Is Talzin better at sorcery?

No. Malgus is a notable warrior. Talzin is a notable sorceress. Syn is a notable alchemist. They are not the best ever just because Sidious complied a freaking book from their notes.

I have stated that Sidious regarded Malgus as the finest warrior among all the Sith he properly assessed. Heck, Sidious himself notes that Malgus was "one of the best" among those who served Vitiate. However, his assessment likely doesn't involves other paragons of TSE but is applicable to those whom he knew well and this list includes Bane.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. Sidious' opinion is a nice nod to Malgus' prowess, but no more important than Bane's opinion about Revan in my mind.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh yea, it was bad. The Republic was not reduced to a roving fleet operating in secret, though. The Jedi were hurt worse in the KotoR era than the Legacy era, the Republic was hurt worse in the Legacy era.

The Republic managed to rebuild and reform itself (including its military capability) during the gap between 3950 BBY - 3680 BBY.

Originally posted by Q99
It also took multiple wars to reduce the Jedi so low, and the lowest was under the Triumvirate, not Vitiate. The Jedi efforts to replenish numbers fast after Exar Kun, resulted in them making some foolish mistakes like allowing independent training on other worlds, resulting in the Jedi Covenant, causing an internal conflict costing Jedi shortly before the Mandalorian war, which then depleted them more. Follow by Revan, followed by the Triumvirate.

Originally posted by Q99
And then in the TOR era itself, the Jedi and Republic successfully held half the galaxy, ironically getting no-where as near to the edge as they did during the KotoR era. Which I guess goes to show, coups and civil wars beat outside conquest for getting things done.

Originally posted by Q99
Actually, he didn't wait for the opposition to dial down much to speak of. Things got more stable and the Jedi more plentiful.

No, what he waited for was for his forces to dial up and for an opportunity to throw the galaxy against the Jedi. His plan was based on him making the One Sith ready, he didn't wait for an exterior conflict to make an opportunity or for the Jedi to get complacent (the Jedi, in fact, were very much more prepared for Sith than, say, the Clone Wars Jedi were. Even when things turned against them they had contingencies ready).

Originally posted by Q99
No, I'm pretty familiar. And more specifically, some of the Dark Council members are more impressive. Others are not.

Darth Wyyrlok, were he in the TOR era, would have no problem taking and holding a senior seat in the council and standing shoulder to shoulder with some of the stronger Dark Councilors. As a duelist he's high-level, his illusion powers are deadly, and he's just all around strong.

The strong Dark Councilors are indeed strong. They simply aren't the only ones who are.

The Republic lost much of its military capability during JCW actually. This is apparent from Sith Triumvirate's virtually unopposed exploits in The Republic space. Meetra Surik had to rely upon aid of Mandalorians under the leadership of Canderous Ordo to put a check on Sith Triumvirate's activities.

During Krayt's time, there *wasn't* a Republic space. They were able to formally hold no planets, and instead had to rely entirely on covert aid.

Let us put it this way: Krayt lacked sufficient power to influence galactic events like Vitiate could even from the shadows.

Let us put it this way: When Vitiate was the same age, he had significantly less.

Is there a reason you're focusing on red herrings? "Oh, but when Krayt didn't have an order and was a newbie Sith he couldn't do nearly as much as when Vitiate had built his order and power for centuries and centuries!"

The comparable time to Krayt being that new is pre-immortal Vitiate. You know, when he had next to no impact on the Great Hyperspace War, a far more significant war he had much more stake in than when Krayt ignored a minor war he had no reason to care about to begin with.

The comparable time to when Vitiate was sending out Revan is when Krayt conquered the galaxy.

And as we've gone over a couple times, he did have great influence in the galaxy shortly thereafter as well, Abeloth and all that.

And finally, he freaking conquered the galaxy. You keep on dancing around and playing with words to avoid that and relying on apples-and-oranges comparisons of literally 7 years after he formed an order vs literally centuries after Vitiate formed his.

If your only argument against someone is highly dissimilar comparisons, then you aren't doing very well.

Krayt is not Vitiate and he shouldn't be blindly assumed to be above the likes of Revan, Bane, Malgus, Plagueis, Caedus, Nyriss and a number of other premium Force-users.

You keep going on about impact, and most of those have a fraction of the impact of Krayt.

And I'm not blindingly assuming, the guy has a lot of feats, combat and otherwise. He managed some force powers no Sith before him had (despite characters on that list trying), and his order had a lot of strong Sith- you yourself noted force barrier was something it took exceptionally skilled Sith to do, and even One Sith unable to make the inner circle could use it with power.

I wouldn't say he'd be above all of those (though definitely above some), but you're the one asking us to believe that the most powerful force user of his era with plenty of great feats and a strong order isn't to be ranked among the 'exceptional sith'.... for some reason.

I never said nor do I claim that Krayt is Vitiate's equal. However, you keep trying to use arguments that work better against Vitiate than they do Krayt. Every time you do so, I will of course point this out and how Krayt worked much faster than the big V.

Wyyrlok doesn't seems to be standout material for TOR era. Consult Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia to understand why.

Really?

The way you're writing that is pretty much openly admitting that you see Wyyrlok as quite powerful by TOR standards and can't bring up any arguments, you just don't want to admit you're wrong.

This is an era in which power alone is not a decisive factor for progress; lot of factors matter. In-fact, this era is bristling with powerful Force-users and many among them are exceptional Sith Sorcerers.

Notably, none of these sith sorcerers were as well-remember or famous for their power as Andeddu. And we all remember what happened to Andeddu...

You're still relying on the thesis that 'because a TOR character is from the TOR era, they must be stronger,' even in instances where they don't have better feats.

Btw, Krayt promotes on competence and power.

So I went to reply and:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Decimus is just like a Skywalker or Yoda or Windu or vice versa.

😐

That you would say this frankly astounds me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So I went to reply and:

😐

That you would say this frankly astounds me.

To be fair, he was bald like Mace.

He was also a Sith Lord who only ascended to the role by selling the Jedi info on his rival. So... yea, he couldn't even take his position directly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Based on what? [/B]

TK destroyed part of a temple
Beat 3 BM amped duelists while he was in orbalisks (making him slower, and it should be noted that one was a battlemaster, and the other was an upcoming battlemaster)
Lightning incinerated stuff
Appeared to wield a dozen sabers to Zannah
The speedy rain feat (heavy rain drops can move at 18 mph, and in a storm, about 10 million fall).
Essence transfer
Force Drain
Good with CQC
He's 6'8" and VERY STRONG, forget Force Strength, this dude is BUFF already

Originally posted by XRKun

Beat 3 BM amped duelists while he was in orbalisks (making him slower, and it should be noted that one was a battlemaster, and the other was an upcoming battlemaster)

The adrenaline and stuff they provide should make him, if anything, faster. They don't restrict movement and aren't particularly heavy, after all.

Originally posted by Q99
During Krayt's time, there *wasn't* a Republic space. They were able to formally hold no planets, and instead had to rely entirely on covert aid.

Originally posted by Q99
Let us put it this way: When Vitiate was the same age, he had significantly less.

Let us the analyze this matter from real world perspective as well:

Vitiate became ruler of a planet during the Golden Age of the Sith by the age of 13 and he accomplished this objective with his personal power and combat prowess (this is unparalleled accomplishment in the entire mythos for such a young individual). In-fact, Vitiate could participate in further "power games" and may have even overthrown Marka Ragnos to become the supreme ruler of the ancient Empire he was initially part of. But this didn't happen because authors had no option but to retcon older canon lore associated with this era, so they decided to figure out an alternative approach for his rise to power.

After the disaster of the Great Hyperspace War, Vitiate prevented extinction of Sith survivors and reconstituted a new galactic superpower in the uncharted territory. At this point, he was comparable to Marka Ragnos in prominence (supreme ruler of a Sith Empire; dream of any ambitious Sith), which is a remarkable accomplishment under the circumstances of that time.

You may argue that Vitiate did not challenge The Republic for a long time but this is due to following reasons:

1. From real-world perspective, such a development would have interfered with ground realities of older canon lore, so authors had to link him with greater galactic affairs in calculative manner. KoTOR II provided the opportunity to authors to link Vitiate with greater galactic affairs eventually. In-fact, SWTOR is heavily based on lore of KoTOR II.

2. From in-universe perspective, Vitiate faced the enormous task of developing his dream Empire or civilization first which would be powerful enough to challenge The Republic; given the circumstances of that timeline, this was not an easy task and resources did not came from trees. In addition, Vitiate had a bigger plan in mind: To consume the entire galaxy to complete his ultimate transformation into a godlike entity. For Vitiate, conquering the galaxy was a secondary objective actually so he prepared himself to make his ultimate plan a reality which took lot of time.

Therefore, do not mistake Vitiate's patience for his lack of capability or something.

Originally posted by Q99
Is there a reason you're focusing on red herrings? "Oh, but when Krayt didn't have an order and was a newbie Sith he couldn't do nearly as much as when Vitiate had built his order and power for centuries and centuries!"

The comparable time to Krayt being that new is pre-immortal Vitiate. You know, when he had next to no impact on the Great Hyperspace War, a far more significant war he had much more stake in than when Krayt ignored a minor war he had no reason to care about to begin with.

The comparable time to when Vitiate was sending out Revan is when Krayt conquered the galaxy.

And as we've gone over a couple times, he did have great influence in the galaxy shortly thereafter as well, Abeloth and all that.

And finally, he freaking conquered the galaxy. You keep on dancing around and playing with words to avoid that and relying on apples-and-oranges comparisons of literally 7 years after he formed an order vs literally centuries after Vitiate formed his.

If your only argument against someone is highly dissimilar comparisons, then you aren't doing very well.

You have not realized the fact that Vitiate could be lot more influential in the shoes of Krayt.

Originally posted by Q99
You keep going on about impact, and most of those have a fraction of the impact of Krayt.

Do you have a habit of overreaching too much in matters involving legacy era characters?

Originally posted by Q99
And I'm not blindingly assuming, the guy has a lot of feats, combat and otherwise. He managed some force powers no Sith before him had (despite characters on that list trying), and his order had a lot of strong Sith- you yourself noted force barrier was something it took exceptionally skilled Sith to do, and even One Sith unable to make the inner circle could use it with power.

Of-course, Krayt is a well-explored character but this means jack when things are analyzed holistically. Well-explored characters are not supposed to be superior to "not so well-explored" characters by default. It is just that it is easier to evaluate capabilities of well-explored characters in comparison to "not so well-explored" ones and consider them for versus debates accordingly. But holistic ground realities can be much different.

Originally posted by Q99
I wouldn't say he'd be above all of those (though definitely above some), but you're the one asking us to believe that the most powerful force user of his era with plenty of great feats and a strong order isn't to be ranked among the 'exceptional sith'.... for some reason.

I have already presented a holistic picture of why I believe that Krayt isn't such a big deal in comparison to paragons of the SWTOR era because this (SWTOR) era seems to represent the pinnacle of competition, advancement and power progression among the Sith in ancient times and their had been a pattern of decline and decay after the fall of Vitiate's Sith Empire. Darth Bane managed to reform the Sith once again but the decline once again commenced after the fall of Sidious. I acknowledge the fact that Krayt brought back Sith to prominence for a specific period again but his own rise to prominence was made possible by some previous developments (he did not pulled off wonders like Vitiate did and neither he was being hunted for extermination by the Jedi in his time. In-fact, he benefited from the generosity of the Jedi). Furthermore, Krayt may have uncovered a few new things but most of his knowledge is still based on ancient teachings. And it is not necessary that he is the most knowledgeable Sith ever. Their may be lot of stuff that he doesn't specializes in.

Originally posted by Q99
I never said nor do I claim that Krayt is Vitiate's equal. However, you keep trying to use arguments that work better against Vitiate than they do Krayt. Every time you do so, I will of course point this out and how Krayt worked much faster than the big V.

Originally posted by Q99
Really?

The way you're writing that is pretty much openly admitting that you see Wyyrlok as quite powerful by TOR standards and can't bring up any arguments, you just don't want to admit you're wrong.

I have made it clear to you beforehand that Wyyrlok's superiority over Andeddu is not such a big deal as you are trying to make it out to be. My assessment of this development is that Andeddu's power was over-hyped and over-glorified in legends. The Sith have come a long way since the reign of Andeddu.

Maybe this will clarify my POV:

Lets say that Marka Ragnos is Dark Council level. Sith have canonically considerably grown in power on two occasions:-

- During reign of Tulak Hord
- During reign of Vitiate

I rate the exiled Dark Jedi very high personally with all the hype surrounding them. Boxes themselves represent power-scaling. Outliers have been mostly ignored with exception of Tulak Hord.

Originally posted by Q99
Notably, none of these sith sorcerers were as well-remember or famous for their power as Andeddu. And we all remember what happened to Andeddu...

Originally posted by Q99
You're still relying on the thesis that 'because a TOR character is from the TOR era, they must be stronger,' even in instances where they don't have better feats.

As mentioned above, Sith were continuously improving during the time span of existence of the first major ancient Sith Empire established by the exiled Dark Jedi. The prime of this time span is regarded as the Golden Age of the Sith. However, Vitiate further increased the standards of the Sith after the disaster of the Great Hyperspace War:

For 20 years, the exiled Sith fleet drifted through deep space. The Sith healed their wounds and reflected on their defeat. Imperial battle strategies were dissected, internal Sith strife was identified as a key weakness, and the Republic's surprise and slow move to defend itself was seen as a vulnerability ripe for exploit.

Meanwhile, the Sith dedicated themselves to training. They delved deep into the dark side of the Force, mastered new powers, and honed their minds and bodies into efficient weapons. Then after nearly two decades of planning and training, they discovered the world of Dromund Kaas.*

To uphold this newly christian-ed standard, very harsh and brutal training was norm in the Sith Academies of Vitiate's reconstituted Sith Empire:

Sith embody passion, strength, and power. Many pursue these ideals, but few are up to the challenge. Every force-sensitive being in the Empire must endure the harsh, unrelenting trails that have shaped the Sith for millennia. Some are groomed for the privilege from the moment they display Force sensitivity. Others fear the trials and hide their talent, only to be forced to face the tests. But regardless of their background, most acolytes die utter failures, their weaknesses exposed by the crushing demands of the Sith Academy on Korriban.

Whether broken by their overseer's instruction, struck down by their fellow acolytes, or devoured by the beasts of Korriban, many acolytes perish during their training. Others use the trials to hone their strength and deepen their understanding of the dark side. But ultimately, only the most fearsome, mighty and cunning acolytes rise to prove their worth and become Sith.*

Now after graduation, Sith Lords engage in further cutthroat competition to plan their ascension to Dark Council if they are ambitious enough but this competition never ends for even those who become Dark Council members:

To serve on the Dark Council is to achieve the greatest position of honor, power and influence in the Empire. Many Sith spend their lives plotting their ascension to the council, but with millions vying for only 12 seats, the competition is cutthroat. The powerful few who join the council often serve for only a month, their lives cut short by internal power struggles or external enemies who target them for assassination.*

So now you realize that what it takes to be a Dark Council member in Vitiate's Sith Empire?

Forget Wyrrlok! Chances of "any" Sith are slim to become a Dark Council member in Vitiate's Sith Empire. Heck, individuals are lucky to even graduate from Sith Academies of this Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
Btw, Krayt promotes on competence and power.

---
*Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Originally posted by Nephthys
So I went to reply and:

😐

That you would say this frankly astounds me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your point is?

I have pointed out to you (Q99) before that numerous developments set the stage for Krayt's rise to prominence; Vong War and dialing down of competition with passage of time.

Krayt exploited the internal fractures of the so-called Galactic Alliance (these fractures represent the aftermath of the Vong War) and transformed it into a Sith Empire. If these internal fractures had not existed and some formidable competition was in place, Krayt wouldn't have accomplished so much.

Maybe this will clarify my POV:

Problems: The Exiles, from what we've seen, are incredibly impressive even by Dark Council levels, and Darth Vader worried that he could use Muur to beat Palpatine... only for Muur to then dominate him as a new master instead.

There's also a big drop to immediately after the Exiles for no clear reason I can tell... and also, we've got nothing placing Andeddu that early, rather than, say, between Tulok and Ragnos.

Additionally, while Andeddu's combat prowess was low, consider this: Not only was he able to give himself biological immortality, but he was so good with illusions he could kill with it. Even by TOR standards, you're not going to find many who could kill with illusions alone, and that's just Andeddu.

Finally, Legacy does not *just* have direct comparison to the old Empire- who I will note often gets talked up even in TOR as incredibly powerful- but also KotoR (one of the stronger masters from then, when amped and aged, was no match for weaker armored Krayt), Clone Wars, and the New Jedi Order eras.

When the most powerful Jedi of all time acknowledges a character as very power... and then they not only gain more experience but a flat-out major power post, then that character is pretty strong.

However, I have noticed a pattern in your debates that whenever he is featured in a versus contest, he is supposed to superior unless the contestant is Sidious, Vitiate, Luke, Abeloth, The Father, The Daughter and The Son.

Actually, I think he's around equal to several more not on that list. I have said quite a few other force users would be epic fights for him.

But yes, those are the list of ones that are clearly better than him, and the next tier down includes Krayt, Revan, and other exceptional sith.

Why? Why should I or even (we) believe this?

Because, one, he's the strongest in an era that's had comparisons to multiple other eras, and two, he's accomplished things than even incredibly powerful sith have not. Control over life and death is no small feat.

He transcended death, was a peerless combatant in his time, and conquered the galaxy. What more do you want? Both in force understanding and accomplishments he stands at a very high level.

To throw your 'why' back at you, why should I rate the non-Vitiate TOR Sith who haven't done more in the force and haven't done nearly as much impact higher?

I do believe you simply are trying to hold Krayt to a higher standard before admitting him as even an equal. Characters of different eras should still be judged by the same standards.

You have even gone so far to claim that he will one-shot even the former 3 Force-users with his Dark Transfer talent. This does not makes sense to me because exceptional Force-users are typically very good at defending themselves or even tanking powers.

Shatterpoints, no tanking- Cade used shatterpoints to destroy even believed-to-be-indestructable objects inhabited by Karness Muur, let alone bodies.

Yes it'd kill them if he used it. That's what it does, and that's one part of why he's so dangerous. He has an almost certain kill ability.

And again, this is if it was successfully applied. Would he actually get a chance to use it on Sidious or Luke? Not very likely! Not without a whole ton of luck. It is an ability that requires good direct contact.

Krayt exploited the internal fractures of the so-called Galactic Alliance (these fractures represent the aftermath of the Vong War) and transformed it into a Sith Empire. If these internal fractures had not existed and some formidable competition was in place, Krayt wouldn't have accomplished so much.

By 'fractures' we are just talking 'worlds in need of repair'. The political fractures? He made them.

And of course, TOR heavily relied on existing fractures themselves, Revan's rise was only possible due to the deep division in the Jedi caused by the Exar Kun war that caused them to ignore the Mandalorians, so this is just a case of inconsistent standards.

Vong War and dialing down of competition with passage of time.

And by 'dialing down' of competition you mean an entire rival order rising as competition. Not to mention, several of their Jedi masters were original ones from the Clone Wars, so knowledge is not going to be lost.

There were 7 years of constant war against multiple orders, Jedi and Imperial Knight. Not only is there no sign of the Jedi being out of practice in advance, but they certainly wouldn't be after that.

The Legacy era is a high-competition era where one of the key elements was a multi-sided war between force users, whether you like it or not.

Why exactly are you two arguing who had more impact and how competitive their eras were? This is a versus battle. You know, when people fight each other.

facepalm

Krayt is the second most successful Sith Lord of all time; Vitiate is number three. Vitiate had 14 centuries to cobble together success and could only achieve half Krayt's success, more or less.

Palpatine, naturally, eclipses them both and by a lot. stoned

to be fair, wasn't it stated that Vitiate would have taken over the galaxy, had revan not made Vitiate sign the treaty? Or that Vitiate would have destroyed the republic had he attacked much earlier, and Revan keeping him from doing so?

Stated by whom? What source?

That's tantamount to saying that "he could have won if he hadn't lost." You could make that claim about anyone who did anything ever.

Vitiate's gains were arguably bigger than anyone barring Krayt and Sidious, but given the time and resources at his disposal, they were embarrassingly low.