Barriss Offee vs The Grand Champion of the Great Hunt

Its PIS because there was actual factors involved that made it PIS. You're just declaring the Champions fights PIS because you don't like them, despite having no information to base that on. Prove that its a case of PIS rather than a character just being that good. Because personally? One case would be PIS. The Champion repeatedly performs at that level.

You know when Janus called you out on being closeminded? Gee, I really can't see where he's getting that from. 😉 (Although he's obviously being just as guilty of it in this case)

When has Barriss displayed the TK prowess to ragdoll someone and smash them around? Particularly someone wearing heavy plate armor? Which would kind of prevent that tactic from doing anything btw.

Also: Rocket boots.

That's actually pretty stupid since I also said that any notable Jedi would hand Grievous his ass as well and when have I ever exhibited dislike for the general? Maybe you're saying the Champion wins because you're a TOR fanboy and a poopoo head?

Spoiler:
Actually, I could better defend that claim of bias than you could yours.

I'm using PIS as a catch-all term for scripted context and circumstances that enabled ostensibly weaker characters to triumph over ostensibly stronger characters, with major emphasis on "scripted."

Obviously Muggles can and have beat Force users. Sometimes even consistently. But at the end of the day, I go with what's on paper and what's on paper is that the character with telekinetic and telepathic powers, equipped with precognition and imbued with superhuman physicality is going to beat a talented Mook with a gun.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Concession accepted over the Champ vs Barriss.

Um, characters are running around with shield generators. Let me see, at least the.... Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, Imperial Agent and the Trooper (huh, all the Non-Force sensitive classes) all mention them in their equipment pages in the TOR: Encyclopedia.

You missed the point. The potential to be in the inventory is not the same as possessing it in all cases. Implants are an optional equipment item, like those Dark Side pyramid relics which grant you temporary defense boosts. No one would argue that the SI could defeat X by virtue of having two Sith pyramids in his robe-pocket.

Canonically, the Mask of Kallig defends against the Force ritual of Zash. I don't have to wear it ever, or I can wear it all the time. I can sell it to buy boots later from a droid vendor. No one would argue that the SI always has Kallig Force Mask defense by virtue of potentially having it on him at some point in his saga.

That's my point.

The Smuggler has it installed in their belt. 😖hrug: It also says Bounty Hunters wear rocket boots. Proving once and for all that the Champ >>>>>>> lameass Offee.

No, Barriss stomps. Your refusal to admit this in favor of non-Jedi is a blatant case of Traviss-ism, and you will be duly punished for this heresy.

Also if you pick an advanced class that can use a shield generator it will be mentioned in its codex page, in the conversation when you pick it, or in the description of the class when you get the options.

Right, and the Exile picked up a plasma torch in Peragus, which is referenced in the mission objective indicator, the dialogue pop-up, and the official strategy guide.

I wouldn't argue that Meetra uses a plasma torch in her combat.

Stims and adrenals are also mentioned on the Hunters equipment page btw.

Yes, I believe this. However, my contention was that ALL TOR characters canonically have implants. This was your original point and the point I contested most.

Spoiler:
Barriss' supremacy is simply evident

As to implants, I think its enough that they're available to any class. You're complaining that they're just an ordinary dude, when its entirely possible for them to be enhanced through various means (cyborg, stims + implants). You can't shrug it off as PIS when these things exist to explain away your problem with it.

No, see above. I did not just say "they are an ordinary dude", but I contested the idea of implants being universal, which was your claim. Also, implants don't protect against Force usage, so this is kind of silly anyways.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That's actually pretty stupid since I also said that any notable Jedi would hand Grievous his ass as well and when have I ever exhibited dislike for the general? Maybe you're saying the Champion wins because you're a TOR fanboy and a poopoo head?

I never claimed that you were biased against the Champ, only that you don't like the idea that a 'Muggle' could defeat a Force user. Thats why you're claiming it to be PIS, despite having absolutely no evidence that it was or even knowing anything about the actual fights themselves.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm using PIS as a catch-all term for scripted context and circumstances that enabled ostensibly weaker characters to triumph over ostensibly stronger characters, with major emphasis on "scripted."

Riiight, and how exactly were any of the Champs wins 'scripted'? And what exactly makes you think that those characters he beat were actually stronger than him?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Obviously Muggles can and have beat Force users. Sometimes even consistently. But at the end of the day, I go with what's on paper and what's on paper is that the character with telekinetic and telepathic powers, equipped with precognition and imbued with superhuman physicality is going to beat a talented Mook with a gun.

And again I ask: How? How do her superpowers enable her to win? You see, thats exactly why I'm calling you out on this, because you're not thinking about anything other than that shes a Jedi and he isn't.

Also he's a bit more than just talented and he has a bit more than just a gun.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I never claimed that you were biased against the Champ, only that you don't like the idea that a 'Muggle' could defeat a Force user.

Which is, again, pretty stupid since two or three fights featuring Muggles vs. Force users were included in my top 10 favorite fight list. I already told you that Muggles can absolutely defeat Force users, but in scripted context.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats why you're claiming it to be PIS, despite having absolutely no evidence that it was or even knowing anything about the actual fights themselves.

Nah, you showed me enough.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Riiight, and how exactly were any of the Champs wins 'scripted'? And what exactly makes you think that those characters he beat were actually stronger than him?

Because he emerged victorious? And because they're all powerful telekinetics and telepaths with superhuman physicality and precognition and he's not?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And again I ask: How? How do her superpowers enable her to win? You see, thats exactly why I'm calling you out on this, because you're not thinking about anything other than that shes a Jedi and he isn't.

Nah, she can choke him to death, break his neck, throw shit at him, throw him into shit, crush his weapons, being creative with her TK presents a vast multitude of possibilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also he's a bit more than just talented and he has a bit more than just a gun.

Ok.

He still loses on-paper.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You missed the point. The potential to be in the inventory is not the same as possessing it in all cases. Implants are an optional equipment item, like those Dark Side pyramid relics which grant you temporary defense boosts. No one would argue that the SI could defeat X by virtue of having two Sith pyramids in his robe-pocket.

Canonically, the Mask of Kallig defends against the Force ritual of Zash. I don't have to wear it ever, or I can wear it all the time. I can sell it to buy boots later from a droid vendor. No one would argue that the SI always has Kallig Force Mask defense by virtue of potentially having it on him at some point in his saga.

That's my point.

I never said that all the classes possessed them, only that they were available to all classes:

"As I've said in the past, all TOR characters have access to implants that can enhance capabilities (brought up in a quest, so its not just gameplay) as well as use stims to do the same. And there is the cyborg thing."

I brought it up merely as a possibility for how the muggle classes could keep up in terms of reflexes.

I would argue that Nox does possess that Mask and should be counted as having it, same as Kalligs Scorching Lightsaber. It isn't potentially, you go on a quest to get it in the SI campaign. Nox canonically possesses the Mask, so I see no reason why we shouldn't think she has access to it in a forum fight. You wearing it or not is optional. Her possessing it isn't.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, Barriss stomps. Your refusal to admit this in favor of non-Jedi is a blatant case of Traviss-ism, and you will be duly punished for this heresy.

How can yu stomp on something.... THATS ALREADY FLYING AWAY:

Rocket boots!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Right, and the Exile picked up a plasma torch in Peragus, which is referenced in the mission objective indicator, the dialogue pop-up, and the official strategy guide.

I wouldn't argue that Meetra uses a plasma torch in her combat.

I would, at least at that point in the game. If its brought up in those sources then obviously she wielded one, until she found something better at least.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Yes, I believe this. However, my contention was that ALL TOR characters canonically have implants. This was your original point and the point I contested most.

Spoiler:
Barriss' supremacy is simply evident

No it wasn't. I just said they all have access to them.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, see above. I did not just say "they are an ordinary dude", but I contested the idea of implants being universal, which was your claim. Also, implants don't protect against Force usage, so this is kind of silly anyways.

The ability to use implants is universal. I don't recall anything indicating why any of the classes couldn't have used them.

I never said it did, I brought them up as means to keep up in reflexes and shit.

^ Imagine that the Champ's fat ugly face is cleverly photoshopped over that super battle droid.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which is, again, pretty stupid since two or three fights featuring Muggles vs. Force users were included in my top 10 favorite fight list. I already told you that Muggles can absolutely defeat Force users, but in scripted context.

Jesus, you're being annoying and pedantic. You know what I meant. You don't like the concept that in a straight fight without PIS that a Non-Force Sensitive could defeat a Jedi or a Sith. Without a scripted context or anything.

Are you going to continue to weasel around, or address the actual point?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, you showed me enough.

Really? Enlighten me on what you saw that made you think it was scripted.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Because he emerged victorious? And because they're all powerful telekinetics and telepaths with superhuman physicality and precognition and he's not?

Lmao. So just him winning is enough to declare it PIS then? 🙄 How staggeringly openminded of you.

And as I've said, its entirely possible for him to possess superhuman physicality. And as I've also said, he possess an enormous arsenal to make up for his lack of Force use. Again, how does Offee survive an entire room of fire thrown her way along with a dozen missiles?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, she can choke him to death, break his neck, throw shit at him, throw him into shit, crush his weapons, being creative with her TK presents a vast multitude of possibilities.

When has she shown the TK prowess to do any of that?

Plus, as a Jedi she isn't versed in using the Force in such lethal ways.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ok.

He still loses on-paper.

No he doesn't. "On paper" he's defeated much more powerful beings than her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I never said that all the classes possessed them, only that they were available to all classes:

"As I've said in the past, all TOR characters have access to implants that can enhance capabilities (brought up in a quest, so its not just gameplay) as well as use stims to do the same. And there is the cyborg thing."

I brought it up merely as a possibility for how the muggler classes could keep up in terms of reflexes.

Fair enough. Implants and stims could explain why people could dodge a Force push, for sure.

I would argue that Nox does possess that Mask and should be counted as having it, same as Kalligs Scorching Lightsaber. It isn't potentially, you go on a quest to get it in the SI campaign. Nox canonically possesses the Mask, so I see no reason why we shouldn't think she has access to it in a forum fight.

I agree that it's in their possession, but whether or not they use it all the time is still grey. Continued use of either of the two items is entirely player choice at this point, similar to Meetra's plasma torch. It's not explicitly featured in any of the cutscenes, nor is it impossible to dispose of the equipment once the mask in particular is done being useful.

However, I admit that in another situation we wouldn't argue Sadow without his amulets or Kun with a single blade saber. This really tied more to the universal implants, which you addressed.

How can yu stomp on something.... THATS ALREADY FLYING AWAY:

[b]Rocket boots![/b]

(Looking up Barriss Offee youtube videos leads me to believe the CW cartoon is just giving too many Jedi and Sith double sabers.)

Barriss stomps.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

^ Imagine that the Champ's fat ugly face is cleverly photoshopped over that super battle droid.

👆

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Fair enough. Implants and stims could explain why people could dodge a Force push, for sure.

For reference to that:

YouTube video

1.30

The Agent also dodges a lightsaber strike. All after already beating him once.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I agree that it's in their possession, but whether or not they use it all the time is still grey. Continued use of either of the two items is entirely player choice at this point, similar to Meetra's plasma torch. It's not explicitly featured in any of the cutscenes, nor is it impossible to dispose of the equipment once the mask in particular is done being useful.

However, I admit that in another situation we wouldn't argue Sadow without his amulets or Kun with a single blade saber. This really tied more to the universal implants, which you addressed.

Exactly my point with the Sadow and Kun thing.

Its optional whether you the player continue to use it after you get it, but not that Nox canonically possesses it. Theres no canon reason why they would get rid of it, or stop using it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
(Looking up Barriss Offee youtube videos leads me to believe the CW cartoon is just giving too many Jedi and Sith double sabers.)

Barriss stomps.

Nah.

Dude, Barriss stomps hard. She toyed with Ahsoka so much. And she ambushed both her and Ventress, even though the latter is like a textbook example of how to hide in the Force.

Barriss >>>> TOR Traviss avatars.

So? Ahsoka's hardly all that. The Champ beat the freaking Jedi Order Battlemaster in a straight fight. 😬

I find it hilarious that my powers are such that I can enrage you literally without trying. It's a wonder we manage to find an island of friendship in the tumultuous sea of your rage.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dude, Barriss stomps hard. She toyed with Ahsoka so much. And she ambushed both her and Ventress, even though the latter is like a textbook example of how to hide in the Force.

Barriss >>>> TOR Traviss avatars.

👆

The only thing enraging me is you continually accusing me of being angry when I'm not. I'm doing this while listening to Adventure Time reviews. Its hard to be pissed when you're laughing every 30 seconds.

Of course.

Lawl

I am an island of tranquility nestled between a snoozing giants arsecrack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So? Ahsoka's hardly all that. The Champ beat the freaking Jedi Order Battlemaster in a straight fight. 😬

Did the Battlemaster apply TK to conclusively knock The Champ out? No, then it wasn't a straight fight; the Battlemaster was being restrained in his efforts to LOLstomp the Champ. Also, that title is retarded.

Barriss Offee solos while doing floating meditation.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose

(Looking up Barriss Offee youtube videos leads me to believe the CW cartoon is just giving too many Jedi and Sith double sabers.)

Dual Sabers did get used too much in the last season. But to be fair in Barriss's case it was only because she stole Ventress's sabers. Although she was clearly trained in fighting that way.

Which is bizarre, given that in the books she never demonstrated such a thing. However, she does seem Soresu-esque, I have to give them that.

But now you have Maul, Sidious, Ventress, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Barriss all using dual sabers. It's becoming a gimmick.