Colonel, don't ninja me again. There will be consequences.
And no, I'd say the Champ would lose in a SWVF rematch against any powerful Force user he's killed in the game.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm saying that Muggles win against Force users despite almost always having an on-paper disadvantage.Grievous kills Force users left and right despite the fact that they should be able to raise a hand and bash the holy bejesus out of him against any hard surface until there's nothing left but warped, tangled metal. (We see Jedi and Sith Force push him throughout CW, TCW, and ROTS.)
In other words, Muggle victories generally owe to scripting, plot contrivance, or other narrative tools to heighten tension and preempt the creation of a Boring Invincible Hero.
But here, I argue what a character is generally accepted as being capable of and then it comes down to odds. Lumiya embarrassed Luke three times throughout LOTF.
But in a versus thread, I'd say he'd crush her like the tin can she is and rightly so.
TL;DR: Because we're not rp'ing the fight or writing it and instead coming to conclusions based on how characters' abilities compare against one another, I'm almost always going to side with the Wizard versus the Muggle.
(Barring favorable context in the thread.)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Grievous kills Force users left and right despite the fact that they should be able to raise a hand and bash the holy bejesus out of him against any hard surface until there's nothing left but warped, tangled metal. (We see Jedi and Sith Force push him throughout CW, TCW, and ROTS.)
The list of Jedi who can actually do that is rather small, bro. And I don't think any of the guys he's killed were on it.
Plus Grievous is fast enough to close the distance and force a lightsaber duel anyway. He's dodged or tanked Force attacks and its easily arguable that he's too fast to pin down and grip with a Force hold.
No, the list of Jedi who have actually done that to him is pretty small.
If we count CW!Grievous, that is true. But there again, we've seen plenty of times that Jedi have nailed Grievous with the Force and didn't rinse and repeat because the script forbade them.
Grievous, with his cyborg durability and physicality, can indeed plausibly beat a Jedi in melee combat.
But the Force is too great an advantage for me to overlook in a general fight.
No Jedi has done that to him. The closest was Windu crushing his chest in CW.
Yeah and 'nailing' him was nothing more than a distraction since it never harmed him. The most it did was daze him. No Jedi (other than the obvious) seems to possess the ability to crush him like you're saying they can. Plus its not like Jedi can just spam the Force over and over. They'd get worn out from the effort. The best thing they could do is immobilize him but he can power through that with his cybernetic strength. And if they try to lift him into the air he can a) grip onto the floor with his feet and prevent it or b) even if they get him into the air as you said he has magnetised feet.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No Jedi has done that to him. The closest was Windu crushing his chest in CW.Yeah and 'nailing' him was nothing more than a distraction since it never harmed him. The most it did was daze him. No Jedi (other than the obvious) seems to possess the ability to crush him like you're saying they can. Plus its not like Jedi can just spam the Force over and over. They'd get worn out from the effort. The best thing they could do is immobilize him but he can power through that with his cybernetic strength. And if they try to lift him into the air he can a) grip onto the floor with his feet and prevent it or b) even if they get him into the air as you said he has magnetised feet.
I'm sorry, but saying that because they Jedi didn't explicitly TK Grievous to death or into a position of vulnerability means they never could ever seems wrong. First I'd like to point out that hypothetical versus matches aren't fought in terms of PIS. This is why we don't argue that Yoda would get knocked out by the first Sith Lightning chucked by Sith Lord X, or Sidious would get TK'd out of hand by Combatant Y. It's perfectly reasonable to say "X has feat Y which is insofar as we know, unblockable by his opponent. Therefore, barring PIS, there's no reason X can't use Y to dominate." We'd also consider this a "best of averages" assumption; it doesn't remove the possibility of defeating X, but simply notes that it is less likely because of Y.
Exceptions to the rule don't simply disprove the rule altogether.
Second, in the TPM novelization, Qui-Gon Jinn reaches into droids and basically disables them with TK, and in the movie he TK's the dice with what we would term is great dexterity. In the former case, he is reaching through a metal chasis to disable a mechanical component of something he's never fought or built. This explains why droids are TK'd by Qui-Gon and remain prone. Obi-Wan may have done it as well, but I only specifically remember Qui-Gon doing so. If Obi-Wan did, then it's absolutely within the realm of Barriss, as her personal control, dexterity, and her exotic Force mastery imply this much is possible.
This is much more reasonable to assume than "in scripted cutscene or player-controlled non-canon battle scene, X beat Y; therefore, X can beat anyone Y-like".
I can't believe I have to preface this, but my remarks are intended to be humorous and sarcastic instead of angry, so please don't accuse me of rage again.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I'm sorry, but saying that because they Jedi didn't explicitly TK Grievous to death or into a position of vulnerability means they never could ever seems wrong.
You seem to be misreading my posts and jumping down my throat today. Perhaps its some kind of religious holiday from reading comprehension:
"Yeah and 'nailing' him was nothing more than a distraction since it never harmed him. The most it did was daze him. No Jedi (other than the obvious) seems to possess the ability to crush him like you're saying they can. Plus its not like Jedi can just spam the Force over and over. They'd get worn out from the effort. The best thing they could do is immobilize him but he can power through that with his cybernetic strength. And if they try to lift him into the air he can a) grip onto the floor with his feet and prevent it or b) even if they get him into the air as you said he has magnetised feet."
I didn't say they 'never could ever', I said it 'seems' to be the case based on examples where people have used TK on him and its been undamaging. So its possible that a Jedi could TK him to death. Unfortunately though thats a baseless argument that flies against the evidence of TK's effects on him. You might as well argue that they could beat him to death with a rock. It's "possible", buuuut its probably not gonna happen.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
First I'd like to point out that hypothetical versus matches aren't fought in terms of PIS. This is why we don't argue that Yoda would get knocked out by the first Sith Lightning chucked by Sith Lord X, or Sidious would get TK'd out of hand by Combatant Y. It's perfectly reasonable to say "X has feat Y which is insofar as we know, unblockable by his opponent. Therefore, barring PIS, there's no reason X can't use Y to dominate." We'd also consider this a "best of averages" assumption; it doesn't remove the possibility of defeating X, but simply notes that it is less likely because of Y.Exceptions to the rule don't simply disprove the rule altogether.
Right.
Except you guys haven't bothered establishing just how the almighty TK is going to instawin the thread or any fights vs Grievous.
How about this:
'The Champion has dozens of highly destructive missiles, which insofar as we know, Barriss cannot block since shes just a measly little padawan, therefore the Champ can use these heat-seeking missiles to win.'
Oh look, I win the thread, since thats how debating.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Second, in the TPM novelization, Qui-Gon Jinn reaches into droids and basically disables them with TK, and in the movie he TK's the dice with what we would term is great dexterity. In the former case, he is reaching through a metal chasis to disable a mechanical component of something he's never fought or built. This explains why droids are TK'd by Qui-Gon and remain prone. Obi-Wan may have done it as well, but I only specifically remember Qui-Gon doing so. If Obi-Wan did, then it's absolutely within the realm of Barriss, as her personal control, dexterity, and her exotic Force mastery imply this much is possible.
I know. Its a Force technique called 'Disable droid'. And theres no indication it would work on Grievous, being a super-advanced cyborg and all.
Whats is your point here?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is much more reasonable to assume than "in scripted cutscene or player-controlled non-canon battle scene, X beat Y; therefore, X can beat anyone Y-like".
What is much more reasonable to assume? That Barriss can do that? No, since its a specific Force technique that requires training in to perform.
Also theres the fact that the fight the Hunter engages in are not scripted and you've offered absolutely no evidence to say that they are. Also the Bounty Hunters victories are not non-canon, obviously. Just because they happen in gameplay doesn't diminish them any more than any other class. I could easily put the Inquisitor as X and have that argument make as much sense.
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense either. Wookiepedia simply states that she worked alongside her former master, but that makes no sense. Overall, I'm not very thrilled with how the new series treats established canon. EU establishes Barriss and Maul in particular as vastly different from how they are depicted in the show.
Maybe. But I must say I am pleased with some elements of her re-imagining.