Except, that's not how the EU portrays balance of the force. Like I said, the Plagueis novel has the Sith use a ritual to unbalance the force they dont do it by merely existing. Furthermore, I can't ever recal any other time in which the Jedi's ability to use the force has been diminished except for the PT era.
So you mean to tell me that when Great Schisms were occurring, Sadow was waging war on the Republic, Kun was killing millions and making the Dark Reaper, the Battle of Ruusan, and Malgus curbstomping jedi on their own ground was a period of Force balance because... two people didn't do a magic woo woo Force ritual to overcome the Force itself using... the Force? Also, Nai argued that their ritual only shifted the Force in the direction of Dark Side dominance and didn't reverse the polarity entirely. This ritual is sometimes taken more blindly than you know, Vitiate the embodiment of Dark Side mastery attacking Jedi. That's clearly a balanced scenario, regardless of interpretation.
Either balance is a complete stalemate or it's the dominance of the Jedi who.symbolize harmony, order and peace. Both interpretations can't be wrong because no ritual.
Also ironic : GL's idea of balance is invalid, but the Chosen One theory which is related to this exact definiton of balance is universally valid.
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t586426.html
Which part indicates HoT being equal to Luke in the Force?
Holistically, HoT have remarkable accomplishments under his belt just like Luke have (both dealt with seemingly "impossible odds" and made it through). In-fact, HoT's performance on Dromund Kaas is more then enough to put him on level of Luke holistically even though it is possible that Luke may have failed in HoT's shoes (Luke's powers diminished near the position of Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas, right?)
Just so you know; Luke doesn't atomizes other Force-users left and right and is not untouchable or without weaknesses. This whole "godlization" of Luke from fans is irritating to be honest.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anddd....Luke beat Abeloth and a Palpatine who throws around Wormholes casually. -_-
Luke could not defeat these beings by himself. He was aided by his allies to stop these beings.
Luke winning a battle or two against these beings, is not an indication of his superiority over them.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
First off, prove that Vitiate was even at full power when Hero beat him. It is my understanding that the Hero beat him when the Dark Lord was the most vulnerable and weak...
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Honestly, Luke as of the Black Fleet Crisis was capable of Force feats of this level:
Luke used the Force to crush the rebuilt fortress of Darth Vader to rubble, shattering the building piece by piece and throwing it into the oceans of Coruscant.
HoT had reached a point that he could perform amazing feats without even gestures (e.g. forcibly shut down down a gigantic bridge on Makeb). However, his peak Force abilities are unknown at the moment.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
By the Yuuzang Vong War, Luke was described as a maelstrom of luminous Force energy. Luke merged with the Force to such a degree that the Jedi Master did not seem to be there, physically or as an individual personality. Luke's control over his lightsaber blade was so great that he was said to might as well have been wielding ten, or twenty lightsabers against the Vong.
Once Luke adapted to the threat of Vong and learned about their weaknesses, the Vong found him to be unstoppable. Same is true for Jacen. Now do you consider Jacen to be on par with Luke?
Also, this whole "multiple blades wielding" thing is not much of an argument. Look at Darth Thanaton wielding multiple blades:
Of-course, Darth Thanton is/was a superb swordsman but the picture above is self-explanatory.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eventually by the time of Fate of the Jedi, Luke fought his way through approximately fifteen Sith until only two remained.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: EncyclopediaThe Knight survives impossible odds to defeat Angral's menacing Sith apprentices and thwart their plans to unleash world-shattering destruction.
HoT also have his remarkable performance on Dromund Kaas going in his favor.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
By the end of the series, Luke was powerful enough with the help of Krayt to defeat and kill Abeloth.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Putting Hero above Yoda is a stretch enough, putting the Hero above then the equal to the Chosen One is just beyond wrong.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Either balance is a complete stalemate or it's the dominance of the Jedi who.symbolize harmony, order and peace. Both interpretations can't be wrong because no ritual.
Or, you know, the balance of the force rests on more metaphycial aspects and not merely on how many Sith/Jedi there currently are.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Also ironic : GL's idea of balance is invalid, but the Chosen One theory which is related to this exact definiton of balance is universally valid.
You're the one who constantly is claiming that Lucas's statements aren't binding on the EU. By contrast, the Chosen One originates from the movies and is present within the EU itself.
Originally posted by Jmanghan
True, but, that just might be a power scale running. (In TFU, as much as I hate it, Kota tore apart the entire ship with the force and used it as a weapon against Galen Marek, yet Vader states he is not stronger then ANY council member.)
Jedi Master Orgus Din is not some chump. He is among the prominent figures of the Jedi Order. Heck, it is possible that he is more powerful then Count Dooku. If he could pull that cave feat with a normal gesture, I wonder what he could do by exerting with both hands.
Originally posted by ares834
Or, you know, the balance of the force rests on more metaphycial aspects and not merely on how many Sith/Jedi there currently are.
In ancient times, Sith existed in large numbers and experimented a lot with dark side of the Force as well so unbalancing may have occurred from time to time.
I think that Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan have touched on this subject as well.
Originally posted by ares834
You're the one who constantly is claiming that Lucas's statements aren't binding on the EU. By contrast, the Chosen One originates from the movies and is present within the EU itself.
Originally posted by ares834
Or, you know, the balance of the force rests on more metaphycial aspects and not merely on how many Sith/Jedi there currently are.
I didn't mean quantity but more like quality. For example, the Sith Triumvirate nearly drove the Jedi to extinction. During the Mandalorian War, the Jedi Council notes that their ability to sense danger and more specifically the danger behind the Mandos is impaired. We later find out that the Sith Emperor is directly responsible and yet he has seemingly impaired their senses or eluded them, either by virtue of his power or/and the tipping of balance.
You're the one who constantly is claiming that Lucas's statements aren't binding on the EU. By contrast, the Chosen One originates from the movies and is present within the EU itself.
1. I've always stated GL canon should be taken in the greater context since EU is "not his world." In this case, if his theory on balance is incorrect, the only other EU concept which can replace it includes neither the Jedi nor the Sith driving the other to the brink. This means when Traya and her goons took out most of the Jedi, the balance was shifted.
2. The Chosen One theory directly impacts EU which is in the era in which it is relevant. In other words, such EU supplements G-canon rather than standing out in contrast, like TOR or TOTJ.
In fact, I'd say there's nothing to contradict the idea of multiple ages of imbalance countered by a chosen hero, whether it's Ulic or Nomi, Revan, the Exile Meetra, or especially the HoT.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I didn't mean quantity but more like quality. For example, the Sith Triumvirate nearly drove the Jedi to extinction. During the Mandalorian War, the Jedi Council notes that their ability to sense danger and more specifically the danger behind the Mandos is impaired. We later find out that the Sith Emperor is directly responsible and yet he has seemingly impaired their senses or eluded them, either by virtue of his power or/and the tipping of balance.
Perhaps, but like I said earlier it still could be a more metaphysical aspect. That is certainly what Mortis and the Plagueis novel suggests.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. I've always stated GL canon should be taken in the greater context since EU is "not his world." In this case, if his theory on balance is incorrect, the only other EU concept which can replace it includes neither the Jedi nor the Sith driving the other to the brink. This means when Traya and her goons took out most of the Jedi, the balance was shifted.
And why must it be one of these two possibilities? Once again, the Plagueis novel has the two Sith creating a fundemental shift in the nature of the force itself, "On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended." That certainly seems to be the cause of the imbalance of the force. Not the lack of Jedi or too much Sith.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
2. The Chosen One theory directly impacts EU which is in the era in which it is relevant. In other words, such EU supplements G-canon rather than standing out in contrast, like TOR or TOTJ.In fact, I'd say there's nothing to contradict the idea of multiple ages of imbalance countered by a chosen hero, whether it's Ulic or Nomi, Revan, the Exile Meetra, or especially the HoT.
Except, once again, it has never been mentioned that the force is out of balance in any of these eras or, at the very least, certainly not to the extent of the movie era. In fact, as I mentioned earlier, the Jedi of the PT ability to use the force is diminished presumably because of the imbalance and this is a type of phenomena never seen in any-other place in the EU to my knowledge. Then you have the trouble happening on Mortis and more. Not to mention this is the only era where the Sith get a full victory as they not only wipe out the Jedi Order but become rulers of the galaxy.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
For example, the Sith Triumvirate nearly drove the Jedi to extinction. During the Mandalorian War, the Jedi Council notes that their ability to sense danger and more specifically the danger behind the Mandos is impaired. We later find out that the Sith Emperor is directly responsible and yet he has seemingly impaired their senses or eluded them, either by virtue of his power or/and the tipping of balance.
Huh, really?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh, really?
The Jedi had remained oblivious to existence of even hundreds of Children of Sith Emperor planted inside the Republic and even the Jedi Order itself. Heck, First Son sat in the Jedi Council itself.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uh no it isn't Master Vandar is specifically able to sense that there is something else behind the Mandalorians. That's why the Council told Revan and co. not to fight them.
Master Vandar may have been very good at sensing oddities in the Force but this doesn't proves that he figured out that a Sith Emperor was behind some disturbances and oddities.
Heck, Vandar was taken out by Nihilus on Katarr, if I am not mistaken.
This guy wins in 3 milliseconds.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uh no it isn't Master Vandar is specifically able to sense that there is something else behind the Mandalorians. That's why the Council told Revan and co. not to fight them.
The Jedi Council specifically hems and haws because they have no idea what's behind the Mandos and because they don't know they're afraid to move. In retrospect, their indecision is what leads to their demise.
As for Ares, again you're saying that the balance of the Force is only shifted if and only if the following happen:
1. The Jedi are explicitly inhibited somehow in Force use.
2. A ritual is performed by the Sith.
3. Mortis experiences imbalance.
4 If the above are not met, regardless of how many Jedi die or how total the Sith dominate, balance is just peachy.
Also twice now you've assumed the idea of balance is tied to numbers. Is that deliberate?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He have a point.The Jedi had remained oblivious to existence of even hundreds of Children of Sith Emperor planted inside the Republic and even the Jedi Order itself. Heck, First Son sat in the Jedi Council itself.
Can you provide some information?
Master Vandar may have been very good at sensing oddities in the Force but this doesn't proves that he figured out that a Sith Emperor was behind some disturbances and oddities.
Heck, Vandar was taken out by Nihilus on Katarr, if I am not mistaken.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The Jedi Council specifically hems and haws because they have no idea what's behind the Mandos and because they don't know they're afraid to move. In retrospect, their indecision is what leads to their demise.As for Ares, again you're saying that the balance of the Force is only shifted if and only if the following happen:
1. The Jedi are explicitly inhibited somehow in Force use.
2. A ritual is performed by the Sith.
3. Mortis experiences imbalance.
4 If the above are not met, regardless of how many Jedi die or how total the Sith dominate, balance is just peachy.
Also twice now you've assumed the idea of balance is tied to numbers. Is that deliberate?
Pretty sure its hinted by the Council that the same thing that sent the Mandos was the thing that corrupted Revan and Malak. Or am I just thinking of something else?
Originally posted by Dolos
This guy wins in 3 milliseconds.
Seriously, mate, stop underestimating HoT. He has overshadowed even Revan.
Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia makes it abundantly clear that no one compares to HoT from the Jedi camp. The only other who comes close is Bersen'thor of his time who has some insane capabilities as well.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As for Ares, again you're saying that the balance of the Force is only shifted if and only if the following happen:1. The Jedi are explicitly inhibited somehow in Force use.
2. A ritual is performed by the Sith.
3. Mortis experiences imbalance.
4 If the above are not met, regardless of how many Jedi die or how total the Sith dominate, balance is just peachy.
Also twice now you've assumed the idea of balance is tied to numbers. Is that deliberate?
Nope, I'm saying in the only confirmed era which the force is descibed as imbalanced all those requirements are met. So, even if there are other eras in which the force is imbalanced it does not seem to be nearly to the extant that the movies eras are.
Also, I haven't deliberately tied the imbalance to numbers of Sith.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I think its in KOTOR I when you ask about the Mando wars.Pretty sure its hinted by the Council that the same thing that sent the Mandos was the thing that corrupted Revan and Malak. Or am I just thinking of something else?
The Jedi did became suspicious eventually and sent lot of agents to unknown regions to figure out the truth but such efforts were in vain:
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: EncyclopediaThe Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However, the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.
Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial space vanished without a trace, but a few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.
I suspect that the quoted events mainly occurred after the fall of Sith Triumvirate, thanks to knowledge of Bastilla Shan.
Prior to Revan's capture by Sith Emperor, Star Forge was commonly suspected for corrupting him and Malak because this Rakatan wonder was known to have corruptive influence of its own, specially on the individuals who would try to use it for their purposes.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yes, HoT did overshadow Revan. Doesn't make him as good as Luke.Luke>Hero>Revan
😛
Originally posted by ares834
Nope, I'm saying in the only confirmed era which the force is descibed as imbalanced all those requirements are met. So, even if there are other eras in which the force is imbalanced it does not seem to be nearly to the extant that the movies eras are.Also, I haven't deliberately tied the imbalance to numbers of Sith.
So now the goalposts have shifted?
If you asked any Jedi in a time of war with Sith if the Force was in balance, would they agree with you despite the lack of the magical ritual?
I'm merely shifting it in an effort to appease you. But in all honesty, I don't think there is an imbalance in any of those other eras. Frankly, I haven't seen any evidence that there is an imbalance in them since the PT eras imbalance is apparently caused by a ritual and not the existence of the Sith.
