Hero of Tython vs NJO Luke Skywalker

Started by Stealth Moose8 pages

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
TFU Unleashed isnt G-canon 😆 😆 G-canon is only the movies and the novels that correspond with them.

Ex: Revenge of the Sith Novel= G-Canon
The Old Republic MMO: C-Canon

RotS novelization is based on an older version of the script. So when it explicitly contradicts what we see in the film, it is C-canon; anything verifiably from GL's mouth in the work or that coincides with what the film shows is G-canon. This is explained in the Wookiepedia canon page.

And TFU is c-canon as well. G-canon extends to films, radio plays based on films, aspects of the novelizations and official reference guides that come from GL directly. If you applied a more liberal sense of G-canon, Marka Ragnos' tomb is G-canon since GL specifically asked for its appearance to be altered to fit his tastes.

RotS novelization is based on an older version of the script. So when it explicitly contradicts what we see in the film, it is C-canon; anything verifiably from GL's mouth in the work or that coincides with what the film shows is G-canon. This is explained in the Wookiepedia canon page.

I am aware, for example the Fight in the chancellor's office in the book was C-canon (or actually maybe even non canon)...but other parts of the book is G-canon. Bad example on my part.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I am aware, for example the Fight in the chancellor's office in the book was C-canon (or actually maybe even non canon)...but other parts of the book is G-canon. Bad example on my part.

No worries. And yes, it has some non-canon elements, like Kit Fisto's head on the desk.

They should have included that part atleast...I'm annoyed they killed off such powerful Jedi Masters so quickly.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Or people have lives. That happens too.

Exactly...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
TFU Unleashed isnt G-canon 😆 😆 G-canon is only the movies and the novels that correspond with them.

Ex: Revenge of the Sith Novel= G-Canon
The Old Republic MMO: C-Canon

As I said, probably below G-Canon, but it was still overseen by George Lucas himself, and the Novel of TFU wasn't. TFU was published by LucasArts. And the Novel was published by... Who? Oh yes. SEAN WILLIAMS. The TFU game is higher Canon then the TFU Novel.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
RotS novelization is based on an older version of the script. So when it explicitly contradicts what we see in the film, it is C-canon; anything verifiably from GL's mouth in the work or that coincides with what the film shows is G-canon. This is explained in the Wookiepedia canon page.

And TFU is c-canon as well. G-canon extends to films, radio plays based on films, aspects of the novelizations and official reference guides that come from GL directly. If you applied a more liberal sense of G-canon, Marka Ragnos' tomb is G-canon since GL specifically asked for its appearance to be altered to fit his tastes.

I get what you're saying, like... The Mortis Trilogy was created directly by Lucas and fitted to his liking, so that makes it G-Canon.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Vitiate's best combat feats are dominating their minds. He was unable to do so in the final fight.

Vitiate's best combat feats are his "council purging" actions. Yes, he once exterminated an entire council by himself.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He is then no saber feats or force feats other then blasting Revan with lightning.

🙄

Vitiate is so powerful and well-versed in the ways of the Force that he doesn't needs a lightsaber to defeat or punk potential adversaries. He have felled expert swordsmen without difficulty.

As far as Force feats are concerned:-

- At the age of 10, Vitiate punked the most powerful Sith Lord of his homeworld by severing his connection with the Force (a dark variant of Sever Force talent) and destroying his mind with his telepathic abilities.

- Vitiate acquired absolute mastery of telepathic abilities; he could instill fear, mentally dominate, produce illusions/apparitions, possess and even destroy the minds of his targets. He went as far as to create "alternate dark personas" of thousands of other Force-users, triggering them from time to time to serve him (Children).

- Vitiate acquired absolute mastery of Force Drain talent; he could consume life-forces of other beings from even light-year distances. He siphoned energies of countless individuals to fuel his power.

- Vitiate acquired absolute mastery of unleashing (offensive) energies in purest forms of the dark side; he unleashed an FLS of this caliber on Revan (This FLS would have eaten Revan alive, if T3-M4 had not stopped Vitiate on time). He could also unleash Force blasts of purest dark side energies with bare hands.

- Vitiate acquired absolute mastery of telekinetic applications; he could perform telekinetic actions without gestures (nearly atomized T3-M4; prevented Scourge from striking Revan with his lightsaber; collapsed structures). Furthermore, he could conjure up Force waves, break bones, shatter organs and even atomize biota with his telekinetic abilities.

- Vitiate once destroyed an entire Dark Council with a mysterious application; this application swiftly killed/incapacitated all Dark Council members simultaneously.

- Vitiate acquired highest degree of immortality; could shift his essence from body to body (Essence Transfer) and permanently prolonged the existence of his original body, preventing its decay and destruction (Midichlorian manipulation). Vitiate was close to acquiring omnipotence when he was stopped.

I am sure that Vitiate acquired lot of other talents; he even altered the atmosphere and environment of Dromund Kaas on planetary scale.

---

Kindly arrange an appointment with a doctor to find out if you have a functioning brain.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beating a weakened Vitiate without his mindcontrol and other sorcery powers has not impressed me enough to even put the Hero above Caedus.

You need to realize that Vitiate was incredibly powerful and dangerous even in his weakened condition. And HoT was the only Jedi in the galaxy who stood a chance against him. This duel have been described as of "apocalyptic" proportions.

In addition, this duel took place in a region where Jedi powers would typically flop (Dark Temple) but HoT had acquired special talents to cope with powerful dark side nexuses, his powers would not diminish in such places. Even Luke does not have this capability.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Well the only two powerful Jedi who went up against him was Revan and the Hero, don't act like thousands did.

🙄

You forgot Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz (All of whom are counted among the most powerful Jedi of the Order).

Vitiate have killed/punked so many Jedi that even the mighty Satele Shan was reluctant to confront him.

Furthermore, Vitiate have killed/punked many Sith as well (including Dark Council members).

Vitiate had overshadowed millions of Force-users, genius.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lumiya beat Luke prior to Dark Empire. 😆 Lets not forget then LOTF Luke beat Lumiya so bad their final fight it was embarrassing.

Lumiya was no match for Luke even during DE era. However, her initial victory reveals that how effective element of surprise can be in combat situations; she outdueled Luke with her lightwhip based martial skills which was an alien experience for Luke. Later on, Luke further improved his own dueling prowess and then punked her in a rematch.

Lesson gained from this event is that Luke doesn't have an automatic counter to all kinds of combat related talents and Force abilities. He learns from experience/exposure just like everybody else and is not unstoppable.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So this puts him Luke level? 😆 Luke has speed blitz Vong warriors and Sith apprentices at ease.

Good! HoT and Luke are even in this case.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke has also out dueled:

-Palpatine (Second Encounter). With the aid of Leia, Luke outdueled Palpatine and disarmed him...something even Yoda couldn't do.


Yes, one of Luke's finest moments.

However, it is not even clear at that moment that what level of skill and power would be required to push HoT to his limits in martial aspects of combat since a Sith Lord with over a thousand (Jedi and Sith) kills under his belt was not able to.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
-Lumiya. Basically annihlated Lumiya on their second encounter, dispite Lumiya still using a lightwhip, a very unfamilar weapon to Luke. Lumiya was personally trained by Vader and the master of Cadeus...not someone to mess with.

"I don't think the three of us are a match for Lumiya..."
-Zekk, to Jaina Solo and Jagged Fel


Lumiya was/is a talented duelist but nothing to boast about.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

-Supreme Overlord Shimrra Jamaan, who was stated to be the most powerful Yuuzang Vong warrior.


Great!

So exactly how powerful is this overlord?

HoT have held his own against/defeated avatars of some extremely powerful entities (most notably an ancient Rakatan entity and Sel Makor).

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
-Viun Gaalan, this is impressive due to how easily Luke beat him.
Viun accolade: "Galant struck Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert sword master such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn...He parried each of Gaalan's blows, and his ripostes-his blade skittering off Gaalan's and thrusting now at the Sith Lords's face, now at shoulder or knee or torso-came increasingly close to touching flesh. Luke smiled at the man."

HoT have suddued some "expert" swordsmen as well; expert swordsmen with impressive feats/accomplishments to be more precise and not just hype.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
...and I'm not even mentioning his fights with Caedus, Vader, or Abeloth...

Abeloth part have been covered already. HoT's performances against Sel Makor might be comparable.

HoT have also defeated following:

- Bengel Morr (survivor of Sacking of Coruscant event; defeated a powerful and battle-hardened Jedi Master, Orgus Din; became a threat to the entire Jedi Order on Tython)

- Darth Angral (boss of Darth Malgus; killed Orgus Din)

- Tol Braga (One of the most powerful Jedi of the Order; fought a Dark Council member for 3 days and redeemed him (unparalleled feat in its own right))

- Lord Fulminiss (a legendary Sith Sorcerer who have history of destroying entire cities with preparation)

- Imperial Guard (an entire contingent to be accurate (a lone Imperial Guard individual is a match for a Jedi); also cut down Guardsman Lessicar who also have multiple Jedi and Sith kills under his belt)

The entire list of notable victories of HoT is very big. On Aldeeran, HoT fought a Sith Lord who had programmed a superweapon of sorts to aid him. This weapon could kill any living being with a single blow. Yet, HoT not just cut down this Sith Lord but also evaded the firepower of the weapon and eventually disabled it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Then accept that due to facts, Luke is much more powerful...we can't be doing fantasies here bro.

Lack of content doesn't implies lack of capability, specially for an individual with the hype and accomplishments like that of HoT: This Jedi Master represented a "prophesized champion of light" which is next to hype of the chosen one in the mythos. It is logical that this Jedi is TOP TIER material like Luke.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As of ROTJ novel (Or might have been ESB actually), Luke was described as the most powerful Jedi Vader has ever seen, dispite formal training...and Vader killed hundreds in the Purge!

HoT have comparable hype. See below.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quotes?

Check the "accolades section" in this thread: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t586426.html

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In a fight against the Hero, Luke has no weakness. Unless they are on some Dark Side nexus, Luke will be superior in every area because he is simply the more powerful. What are the Hero's strengths? Where is the Hero superior? Give me some force and combat feats or else it's safe to say Luke wins...

Yeah right! Luke is invincible, I forgot. 🙄

Both Luke and HoT have extraordinary accomplishments under their belt. Both became masters of the Force and acquired extraordinary dueling skills. HoT's dueling skills were so elite that he attained "legendary" status even in the Sith Empire in this regard. Obviously, it is not clear that who would emerge victories if these two dueled but we can make an informed judgment.

Luke benefits from great amount of information about his abilities and talents in "versus debates" but this doesn't implies that he would never have an equal or superior. My stand on this matter is that while HoT is not as richly explored in comparison, he still (holistically) competes with Luke on the basis of whatever is known about him. Therefore, my assessment of this contest is 50/50 which is logical.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You are going off assumptions, I'm going off facts. You assume the Hero can go on toe with Luke despite no evidence to back up your claim. Spit out some quotes orelse accept Luke is a tier above him.

"Luke Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, was being accused for the millions of deaths the second civil war supplied?"

"I-felt someone very powerful in the Force," she said, her voice slightly shaky and laced with an uncertainty that Vestara had never heard from her. It made her stomach clench. "Strong in the power of the light side." A Jedi...a great Master."

"As Luke and Ben push their Force abilities beyond known limits they draw closer to a nexus of the dark-side..."

"Luke Skywalker is still the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. I think we should assume he has a plan."

"...but rather a fight with one of the most powerful Jedi in history"

...I have litterly like a hundred accolades, and I only used the ones really from Fate of the Jedi. I didn't even start with Legacy of the Force or New Jedi Order yet. While yet the Hero's best are calling him the best padawan... 😂


I think that you have not paid enough attention to the accolades that you listed above or understood them.

It is common knowledge that Luke is "the most powerful Jedi in his era" and "one of the most powerful Jedi in history."

Now HoT also fits the aforementioned criteria easily:

"You are the Jedi's finest." (From a Sith Lord who not just have history with legendary individuals such as Revan and Meetra but had over 3 centuries of span to evaluate the Jedi Order).

"You are our greatest warrior… and our best hope." (From Grand Master Satele Shan, nuff said)

Anything else?

Also the Hero of Tython has 'unmatched lightsaber prowess' and 'unrivaled reflexes'.

estahuh

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He is then no saber feats or force feats other then blasting Revan with lightning.

What about easily overpowering 4 of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy at the same time?

And he once beat the shit out of some Executioner guy who betrayed him.

Yeah, Vitiate is one of the most powerful individuals in the mythos and saying the opposite isn't smart, no matter how much one despises his character.

I made this thread, and I have to say... Luke takes this, but DEFINITELY not easily, I doubt I'd put HoT on Yoda's level.

I think HoT is almost equal to Yoda. I'd say he's above Dooku and Windu for sure.

Originally posted by Petrus
Yeah, Vitiate is one of the most powerful individuals in the mythos and saying the opposite isn't smart, no matter how much one despises his character.

👆

Where'd you rank HoT?

Originally posted by Petrus
Where'd you rank HoT?

Pretty high. I doubt HoT had in the time of their class storyline a wealth of esoteric knowledge like Yoda or Dooku, but in terms of talent and raw power they are well up there.

I think that if HoT had access to the same amount of knowledge Sidious and/or Yoda had, he'd surpass at least RotS Yoda. But as it is, he doesn't.

In a duel, I'd say HoT takes Dooku and it would be a very, very close call against Yoda and/or Sidious.

Arguably, if Anakin Skywalker had access to Yoda's wealth of knowledge and didn't get maimed and go Dark Side in the process, he'd be stronger than Yoda. Qui-Gon indicates this in TPM.

I get what you're saying, but can they truly be compared? I'm not going as far as suggesting HoT would be as powerful as full-potential Anakin with access to that knowledge, but I dare say he'd challenge Yoda and Sidious.

The following are most impressive Jedi:

1. Hero of Tython
2. Revan
3. Bersen'thor (no. 3)
4. Luke Skywalker
5. Yoda
6. Satele Shan
7. Mace Windu

Honorable mentions:

1. Aryn Leener
2. Jacen Solo
3. Kao Cen Darach
4. Jaric Kaedan
5. Syo Bakarn

Ranking wise:-

TIER 1:

Hero of Tython; Luke Skywalker; Yoda; Bersen'thor (no. 3)

TIER 2:

Mace Windu; Revan; Satele Shan

TIER 3:

Aryn Leener; Jaric Kaedan; Syo Bakarn

TIER 4:

Kao Cen Darach; Jacen Solo