Originally posted by Badabing
Will somebody please break down what's happening in this thread regarding full capacity vs in character? Please don't embellish, finger point or show bias.
This is how it got brought up. A tactic was mentioned via speed BFR and then it was dismissed due to the number of times it's been used.
Originally posted by carver9
How many times out of 10 would Flash do this? Remember, personalities is still in play. Flash has starred in numerous of comics outside of this so why doesn't he use this tactic when him and the JLA are losing?
Originally posted by jaxthejester
I like your posting style. But I agree with Carver on this point.
PIS occurs when a writer ignores a power-set in a one-off setting (i.e.- when they ignore the "norm" for the character simply to advance their writing plot).However; CIS occurs when a character limits himself by virtue of personality and/or by typical fighting style.
Thor (for example) could BFR or Godblast most foes from the gate.
But he doesn't.
Part is preference- he doesn't want to kill if he doesn't need to. And he likes battle.
Part is simply "how he tends to fight"- it would not naturally occur to Thor to begin each battle with a BFR or Godblast.
He simply does not fight that way.
He will "if" he realizes that this is the ONLY way to win.
But if not, he "chooses" to be a brick/blaster.By the same note- Flash will not begin a match with a BFR into the Flash Force, or anything akin to this.
He will not risk that his foe cannot survive the trip.
Much like Thor- Flash "chooses" to be a speedster that relies on fast strikes and dodging.
He "can" do more, and will if it is absolutely needed.
But he does not, nor has he ever, begun a fight with a brand-new foe, by BFRing him or I.M. punching him.
That is not Flash.
That is how certain fans would fight "if they had Flash's powers."That's what Carver is saying about personality.
It's not just morality.
It's "everything" about the character's fighting style and choice making matrix.
It's the reason that Prof. X doesn't mind wipe every Magneto.
It's the reason that Superman didn't throw Doomsday into the Sun.And it's the reason that Flash doesn't start out a fight with an instant win/instant murder tactic.
It's not that "cannot", it is simply that he historically has proven that he "does not."
It is simply not how he tends to open combat.
He's not Zoom. He's not Wolverine. He's not Thanos.
He's a good guy. On a good guy team. With all the boons and baggage that comes with it...
Including risking (and often eating) a loss, due to the fact he chooses to gauge his foe's power level prior to hitting them with what may amount to a killing blow.That's not PIS. That's character design.
Such is my opinion anyway.
Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power level
Originally posted by OdekahnI see, thank you. I was just curious is all.
this is how it got brought up. A tactic was mentioned via speed BFR and then it was dismissed due to the number of times it's actually been used in comics.
Well, this is directly from the rules and has been since before I joined KMC: "It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."
It's not like anyone saying Flash is going to kill, that would be out of character. I would think that people would debate whether Flash could speed BFR somebody on WBH's level. That's just my opinion.
Originally posted by Badabing
It's not like anyone saying Flash is going to kill, that would be out of character. I would think that people would debate whether Flash could speed BFR somebody on WBH's level. That's just my opinion.
Exactly 👆
And it's an understandable opinion too. I like the approach of using a boom tube to BFR him like they did Darkseid.
Originally posted by Badabing
I see, thank you. I was just curious is all.Well, this is directly from the rules and has been since before I joined KMC: "It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. [b]For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."It's not like anyone saying Flash is going to kill, that would be out of character. I would think that people would debate whether Flash could speed BFR somebody on WBH's level. That's just my opinion. [/B]
Well, that would mean Hulk loses and you know Carvster.
Originally posted by Badabing
I see, thank you. I was just curious is all.Well, this is directly from the rules and has been since before I joined KMC: "It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. [b]For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels."It's not like anyone saying Flash is going to kill, that would be out of character. I would think that people would debate whether Flash could speed BFR somebody on WBH's level. That's just my opinion. [/B]
It is a good opinion, friend. And well stated. But I do believe that an element is missing from it.
"fight to their best ability, but still within the character's personality "
The last part of that sentence is a direct reference to the fact that a character's personality still dictates how they are most likely to apply that "maximum potential."
How a characters reacts to a given threat directly determines what their most likely attack scheme will be. Prior on-panel fights dictate this norm.
And it is not always a "light speed BFR" or an "Infinite Mass Punch."
A character's attack scheme is highly context sensitive to the situation at hand.
And it is often determined after an initial assessment is first made.
For example :
A character will not typically BFR someone if they think they can land a K.O.
There is no reason to force a temporary retreat when they can simply end the threat.
Thus a BFR is not always the "best potential move" for a given encounter.
Keep in mind that the hero has no idea at first who or what they are facing here. They don't even know if a BFR will work yet, or if the foe can teleport (and thus come right back).
They need some assessment time.
Here is a great analogy for this :
How do you think that a "Flash vs. Kingpin" match would play out?
What would you think of when picturing this match in your head?
Keep in mind the sum of all of Flash's past encounters, and take into account his typical tactics and reactions to "brand new" villains.
He has no idea how powerful Kingpin is or what he can do.
What would Flash do when he sees a giant "brick" with an unknown power level?
I personally believe that Flash would be most likely to open by blitzing Kingpin out with a flurry of super fast punches.
This follows the norm for Flash, and it lets him assess the threat.
Based on Flash's past encounters- I find this to be the most likely opening move when facing a new foe of unknown power level.
Thus by contrast-
I find it exceedingly unlikely that Flash would open combat by instead charging Kingpin at maximum speed and BFRing him into the Speed Force to take care of him.
This is not to say that Flash lacks this power option.
It is not that he "could not." He can. He has the power to act "at his highest potential."
I am instead saying he "would not." Because it would make no sense to him to enact such an opening move.
1. He has no idea who this foe is, or if they can survive the trip.
2. If he goes for a "harmless BFR" then he is choosing to drop off a potentially deadly foe, when he could have instead knocked them out and had them placed in prison.
3. And simply put- Flash's history shows that he is FAR more likely to respond to an unknown threat with typical speedster attack schemes.
Now if Flash tried to speed blitz Kingpin, and it had no effect- then one could indeed argue that Flash would take things up to the extreme.
If he simply cannot harm his foe at all, it would be logical to BFR them for the sake of survival.
But to think that Flash would open every single fight with an immediate light speed BFR seems unreasonable.
Not all characters should be BFRd. What about the ones that teleport right back? How would Flash know what he is facing here?
No, I believe that it is far more likely that Flash would react to virtually any new foe with a standard "speed dodge and punch blitz" combo, as opposed to "charging them full-boar" from the gate and pushing himself to the breaking point to rip open a portal to BFR them.
That is all this truly boils down to: Probability.
If you believe that Flash would open more than 50% of all "first time met, random encounter" scenarios with an uber BFR attempt- then by all means, keep your stance. Such is your prerogative.
But if you believe that Flash is more likely to start out by using speed to attack his foe and determine first what it is, and second how to deal with it- then you and I are not in disagreement.
It's not that Flash cannot attempt this maneuver. He would- if and when he deemed it necessary.
But it is contrary to his personality and established fighting style to open every encounter with every foe by using this single maneuver.
That is not limiting his power. That is simply filtering it through his own common sense.
I.E.- Applying the "personality" side of that power/choice restriction.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
I like your posts. You've been a well-reasoned and articulate poster since I've read your posts - and I am NOT being sarcastic.
That said, I just want to raise a couple of points. If they seem combative or hostile, please don't take it in that manner.
You say, first of all, that Flash wouldn't do it right off the bat, and use the example of Kingpin. That's all and well, but we're not talking about a big fat guy in a white suit and a bitchin' pimp cane. We are talking about the Flash seeing this guy:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8901484/Incredible_Hulks_635_005.jpg.html
There is NO way he starts a battle by running up and trying to punch him.
Secondly - you and others bring up the 'in character' rule. That's a fair point.
Pak, when creating the incarnation of WBH, went specifically out of his way to show how, in character, the Hulk does not kill. He holds back his power. He only unleashed it when he was sure they would all magically come back, or against Mindless Ones (which, by definition, are mindless). He is NOT, in character, just going to spam his energy blasts and planet destroying punches against people he has never seen before, and whom he does not know would be able to come back. CIS is still on, after all.
And with the Hulk, more than most characters, CIS is a pretty big deal. Hulk has always held himself back.
@Dark Saint. The issue is, that due to CIS hulk woundnt even go WBH mode on these opponents because one missed attack could very well level the field. However since the forum makes the hard distinction between WBH and just regular Greenscar (even tho no such distinction exists within the comic), then hulk attacking them while in this mode should be fair game.
WBh is Greenscar when he has stopped holding back in the comics....ergo the hulk with limits taken off...and with a very specific mindset..not holding back.. That mindset is imported into the thread as soon the character WBH and not just regular GreensScar is specified. He wouldn't suffer from the same CIS inhibitions that Green Scar does because he is by definition GreenScar without the inhibitions. In this case along as he believes the JLA are his enemies and there are no innocents around...he will come out swinging...and whether he lands or not..that's pretty much all that's needed.
Originally posted by Naija boy
@Dark Saint. The issue is, that due to CIS hulk woundnt even go WBH mode on these opponents because one missed attack could very well level the field. However since the forum makes the hard distinction between WBH and just regular Greenscar (even tho no such distinction exists within the comic), then hulk attacking them while in this mode should be fair game.WBh is Greenscar when he has stopped holding back in the comics....ergo the hulk with limits taken off...and with a very specific mindset..not holding back.. That mindset is imported into the thread as soon the character WBH and not just regular GreensScar is specified. He wouldn't suffer from the same CIS inhibitions that Green Scar does because he is by definition GreenScar without the inhibitions. In this case along as he believes the JLA are his enemies and there are no innocents around...he will come out swinging...and whether he lands or not..that's pretty much all that's needed.
I actually agree with this, which is what my first point to jax was - this isn't the Kingpin that Flash is seeing on the battlefield. It's the guy who's got energy roiling off him in waves, whose every step is creating destruction etc etc.
Based on this, and we know Flash's analytical speeds (a second to us would be like years to him..) - it is, IMO, far fetched to think that he would lead with a flurry of superspeed punches.
To be fair... some people are giving Worldbreaker Hulk more credit than he deserves.
Ones does not need planetary level durability to withstand his regular hits. If we look at the fight, then we come to realize that the collision between Hulk and Red She-Hulk made thet planet blow up, kill everyone around and shatter few nearby planets, which is all great and good and still establishes him as a powerful being, but ...
... with that being said: We also saw them fighting regulary and their punches were not busting the planet.
In a way it's the same like it's for Thanos, who blew up a planet, when he collided with Drax, but in all of his other fights he had he never came close to such a level of destruction, when simply throwing fists.
... and with that being said: Worldbreaker Hulk still wins this fight easily. No one in the new Justice League has proven to have the durability to withstand his attacks and I'm not even talking about the planet-busting showing, but his regular hits, which at that point are still more amplified than anything we've ever seen before. Not even Superman has feats, which suggest that he is capable of taking all too many from these shots.
He fought Darkseid, but he got overwhelmed and Darkseid was even holding back, because he wanted him alive. All of his other opponents didn't have such a damage output yet. Helspont and guys like that have a lot of hype going on for them, but it's not really clear how powerful they truly are.
Originally posted by Enzeru
To be fair... some people are giving Worldbreaker Hulk more credit than he deserves.Ones does not need planetary level durability to withstand his regular hits. If we look at the fight, then we come to realize that the collision between Hulk and Red She-Hulk made thet planet blow up, kill everyone around and shatter few nearby planets, which is all great and good and still establishes him as a powerful being, but ...
... with that being said: We also saw them fighting regulary and their punches were not busting the planet.
In a way it's the same like it's for Thanos, who blew up a planet, when he collided with Drax, but in all of his other fights he had he never came close to such a level of destruction, when simply throwing fists.... and with that being said: Worldbreaker Hulk still wins this fight easily. No one in the new Justice League has proven to have the durability to withstand his attacks and I'm not even talking about the planet-busting showing, but his regular hits, which at that point are still more amplified than anything we've ever seen before. Not even Superman has feats, which suggest that he is capable of taking all too many from these shots.
He fought Darkseid, but he got overwhelmed and Darkseid was even holding back, because he wanted him alive. All of his other opponents didn't have such a damage output yet. Helspont and guys like that have a lot of hype going on for them, but it's not really clear how powerful they truly are.
In the Dark dimension....Hulk and Betty kept blowing up the planet and disintegrating everyone one around them indirectly with their hits on each other....over and over again while Hulks wish kept reforming the planet..rinse and repeat. And that was to go on virtually forever... It is not some kind of one time thing nor the same thing as Thanos vs Drax at all.
He and Red She hulk, dsintegrated an army of beings who were flat out stated to be to powerful in conjunction for a skyfather to put down in her own realm, Wendigo, bi beast, and Armcheddon as well as a highly amped Fing Fang Foom.....with the shockwave from indirect hits miles away. His direct punches would be astronomically more effectual than that residual shockwave ( Yes in actuality, billions of times more effectual) which would itself be enough to kill them. A direct hit at that level isnt needed but if he did happen to land one....im sure you can imagine it.
WBH wins. He punches The Speed Force out of existence, turning the Flash into a regular human in a red outfit. Then he punches DCnU out of existence, just for good measure.
Behold, DC Hulk Universe:
Hulkerman - faster than a speeding segway, able to leap tall Australians in a single bound, stronger than that fat kid with the PSP Vita.
Wonder Whoaman! - Greek Godess of PMS (PMT to some), able to channel the red rage of womandom from time immemorial, and smite her enemies from the face of the Earth.
The Gamma Green Lantern - Channelling the force of the cosmic GammaFather's rage, through their GL rings, the most powerful weapon in the universe.
...
If WBH is going HoTM, right from the start, then the JL are disintegrated instantly. They cannot withstand the energies coming from him, nevermind the backwash of any punches he may through.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I like your posts. You've been a well-reasoned and articulate poster since I've read your posts - and I am NOT being sarcastic.
Jax is always respectful and doesn't get upset when people disagree with him. He's a joy to have discussions with imo no matter if we agree or not. 👆
With that said, I'd like to bring up another point.
If Superman or Flash is pissed off, they use and fight with their abilities way different than if they were just trying to stop a bank robber. Hulks anger is what gives him his power, so why is Hulk allowed to be in a pissed off mindset but not anyone else? It IS within Superman's character to blitz while angry and not holding back. The whole point in a VS forum fight is that both characters want to win. Thus the reason (imo) the full capacity rule was implemented.
Originally posted by Naija boy
In the Dark dimension....Hulk and Betty kept blowing up the planet and disintegrating everyone one around them indirectly with their hits on each other....over and over again while Hulks wish kept reforming the planet..rinse and repeat.
I know that.
My point was that they also had regular punch exchanges, while the other characters were talking after a resurrect.
That proves that not every punch the Hulk throws is not as devastating and some people might thing. It proves that the planet got destroyed, when they unleashed a bigger attack like for example a big collision between the two of them.
So in a way it's just like the Thanos instance, where he clashed with Drax and destroyed the planet, yet all of his other regular attacks are much more to the ground. It even proves further that the planet Thanos was on, when it got destroyed ... was actually quite small :-| It's a great showing for him nonetheless. A standard planetary level feat.
Originally posted by Enzeru
I know that.My point was that they also had regular punch exchanges, while the other characters were talking after a resurrect.
That proves that not every punch the Hulk throws is not as devastating and some people might thing. It proves that the planet got destroyed, when they unleashed a bigger attack like for example a big collision between the two of them.So in a way it's just like the Thanos instance, where he clashed with Drax and destroyed the planet, yet all of his other regular attacks are much more to the ground. It even proves further that the planet Thanos was on, when it got destroyed ... was actually quite small :-| It's a great showing for him nonetheless. A standard planetary level feat.
👆
Originally posted by Enzeru
I know that.My point was that they also had regular punch exchanges, while the other characters were talking after a resurrect.
That proves that not every punch the Hulk throws is not as devastating and some people might thing. It proves that the planet got destroyed, when they unleashed a bigger attack like for example a big collision between the two of them.So in a way it's just like the Thanos instance, where he clashed with Drax and destroyed the planet, yet all of his other regular attacks are much more to the ground. It even proves further that the planet Thanos was on, when it got destroyed ... was actually quite small :-| It's a great showing for him nonetheless. A standard planetary level feat.
So that's all you got from that showing was planetary?.
