Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I like your posts. You've been a well-reasoned and articulate poster since I've read your posts - and I am NOT being sarcastic.That said, I just want to raise a couple of points. If they seem combative or hostile, please don't take it in that manner.
You say, first of all, that Flash wouldn't do it right off the bat, and use the example of Kingpin. That's all and well, but we're not talking about a big fat guy in a white suit and a bitchin' pimp cane. We are talking about the Flash seeing this guy:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/8901484/Incredible_Hulks_635_005.jpg.html
There is NO way he starts a battle by running up and trying to punch him.
Secondly - you and others bring up the 'in character' rule. That's a fair point.
Pak, when creating the incarnation of WBH, went specifically out of his way to show how, in character, the Hulk does not kill. He holds back his power. He only unleashed it when he was sure they would all magically come back, or against Mindless Ones (which, by definition, are mindless). He is NOT, in character, just going to spam his energy blasts and planet destroying punches against people he has never seen before, and whom he does not know would be able to come back. CIS is still on, after all.
And with the Hulk, more than most characters, CIS is a pretty big deal. Hulk has always held himself back.
Thank you kindly, DarkSaint.
And please know that the feeling is mutual; I've really enjoyed reading your posts.
Your logic and rhetoric is damn impressive. Kudos brother.
Naija did a fine job of explaining why Hulk is going for the kill in this match-up: It's built into the title of World Breaker.
Green Scar lets go of morality in this particular incarnation and turns his back on Pak's prior "holding back/no killing" mantra.
But the point you make about Flash's reaction to seeing Hulk in true beast mode- that is a great counter point.
I agree that Flash would react to WB far more extremely (even upon first glimpse) than he would against Kingpin.
World Breaker looks impressive. He is huge and he glows with energy. Even prior to combat, he radiates force waves. The guy screams "not a light weight."
But this is the JLA here... these boys take on the crème de la crème of bad guys on a regular basis.
Flash should, IMHO, have a degree of thick skin against initial appearance reaction.
And I don't imagine that he would see World Breaker (at first) as being more of a threat than the likes of Darksied.
Even when faced with such Galactic Titans as that; the JLA still has a preliminary "test it's true limits, then react accordingly" phase to how they approach combat.
Darksied had to bust out the heavy guns before Flash decided to reply with a desperation BFR.
I don't think that WB would side step this personality filter based on appearance alone.
Flash would know that something nasty is in front of him.
But he would likely avoid it at first and let Superman take the initiative.
Until Hulk actually "hits" something, Flash will still be limited to basic appearance as a means of deciding what action is best to take.
Now if Hulk were to one-shot Superman...
Then I would have no issue with Flash deciding, after that event, that a desperation BFR is highly warranted by the threat at hand.
But prior to such an event, the filter should still be on.
Against WB, I see Flash as being appropriately wary, but not immediately sold on the idea of "kill it or dump it" as a first response trigger.
A lot of DC foes have radiating auras, or appearances that "bark louder than they bite" (so to speak, lol).
Hulk has both in this mode- but it would take a moment for Flash to realize that.
Flash may not charge a glowing behemoth and punch blitz him (you nailed it when you mentioned that Flash would "see" the power difference between Hulk and Kingpin), but Flash would still assess prior to reacting with extreme tactics.
For all Flash knows- WB could be a foe that is well within Superman's capability to handle.
It seems more likely that he would dodge, avoid, and watch- then react with tactics based on how the other "heavy hitters" on the team react to the big Green Guy.
Such is my two cents in any case.
Thanks again for the kind words.
And fantastic counter-point my friend!
Originally posted by Odekahn
Jax is always respectful and doesn't get upset when people disagree with him. He's a joy to have discussions with imo no matter if we agree or not. 👆With that said, I'd like to bring up another point.
If Superman or Flash is pissed off, they use and fight with their abilities way different than if they were just trying to stop a bank robber. Hulks anger is what gives him his power, so why is Hulk allowed to be in a pissed off mindset but not anyone else? It IS within Superman's character to blitz while angry and not holding back. The whole point in a VS forum fight is that both characters want to win. Thus the reason (imo) the full capacity rule was implemented.
Thanks man. You bring up a helluva point- Why is the deck stacked so much in Hulk's favor here?
It is certainly fair to ask.
This is my take on the issue that folks are seeing with this particular match up:
IMHO- The reason that Hulk is getting the "morals off" treatment here, and the JLA is not, is based simply on the title of the incarnations applied.
If this were simply "Green Scar vs. The JLA", then Hulk would have morality on.
If this were "Green Scar vs. Blood Lusted JLA", then Hulk would the one at a disadvantage.
But this is "World Breaker" vs. the JLA.
And World Breaker is a specific power level AND mind-set for Hulk.
It is Hulk with all morality turned off. He is a killer by definition.
Now if the title of this match were "Superman after watching Wonder Woman and Lois get ripped in half by Hulk vs. World Breaker"- then I would agree that the sides would be equal when it comes to extreme initial reactions.
But the Thread Maker designed this as "normal JLA" vs. "insanely power-boosted murdering Hulk."
Which, as you correctly noted, is not a fair match.
It highly favors Hulk by design.
But then, Hulk is also facing the entire JLA here. So the question that the Threat Maker is asking seems to be this:
Can the JLA, with normal personality and morality restrictions, take on Hulk at his most powerful/most murderous state, and hope to win a majority given these conditions?
...I would have to say no. But I also accept that such is my stance, and not everyone is going to share it.
Great post bud! 😄
Guys, no one is talking about I.m punches. DCnu Flash dont even has This power. I think most of people here just dont know new 52 Flash.
1 - He used the power of his Super Brain a plenty of times in his comic. The power is: calculate every single possible cenario before act. Since he used it some times, I ask: not using This power dont configurate PIS ?
2 - When he faced a stronger enemy - Grood with aceleration force - he came with a conclusion: the only way to save the City is BFR. Do you guys think that is hard to think " if we fight here, the green monster will destroy the City and many people will die."
3 - A possible cenario is: he see Superman being overpowered + the colateral damage of the fight,, he vibrates/avoid the shockwaves, then he calcs to find out the best solution: a easy way would be the BFR to aceleration force.
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Guys, no one is talking about I.m punches. DCnu Flash dont even has This power. I think most of people here just dont know new 52 Flash.1 - He used the power of his Super Brain a plenty of times in his comic. The power is: calculate every single possible cenario before act. Since he used it some times, I ask: not using This power dont configurate PIS ?
2 - When he faced a stronger enemy - Grood with aceleration force - he came with a conclusion: the only way to save the City is BFR. Do you guys think that is hard to think " if we fight here, the green monster will destroy the City and many people will die."
3 - A possible cenario is: he see Superman being overpowered + the colateral damage of the fight,, he vibrates/avoid the shockwaves, then he calcs to find out the best solution: a easy way would be the BFR to aceleration force.
"When he faced a stronger enemy - Grood with aceleration force - he came with a conclusion"
I honestly think that the only real difference we have is how we interpret the last part of what you just posted:
"He came to a conclusion."
He had to get there first. He did not start out with said conclusion.
That's all I'm really saying here.
At first, he will not know what Hulk is.
After a few rounds, sure. But not immediately.
Folks were arguing that Flash would go for an immediate light speed BFR.
That is not how he reacts until "after" he knows what his foe can do.
Not prior.
Even the fastest brain on Earth still needs to rely on the actions of others prior to gathering needed data.
Someone needs to interact with Hulk before Flash knows the nature of the Beast he is facing.
And that interaction will take a few moments to play out.
Thus the "come to the conclusion" part that you noted.
Deciding how to react to any given threat typically first requires understanding what the threat is, and what it can do.
Originally posted by jaxthejester
Thanks man. You bring up a helluva point- Why is the deck stacked so much in Hulk's favor here?It is certainly fair to ask.
[B]This is my take on the issue that folks are seeing with this particular match up:
IMHO- The reason that Hulk is getting the "morals off" treatment here, and the JLA is not, is based simply on the title of the incarnations applied.
If this were simply "Green Scar vs. The JLA", then Hulk would have morality on.
If this were "Green Scar vs. Blood Lusted JLA", then Hulk would the one at a disadvantage.But this is "World Breaker" vs. the JLA.
And World Breaker is a specific power level AND mind-set for Hulk.
It is Hulk with all morality turned off. He is a killer by definition.Now if the title of this match were "Superman after watching Wonder Woman and Lois get ripped in half by Hulk vs. World Breaker"- then I would agree that the sides would be equal when it comes to extreme initial reactions.
But the Thread Maker designed this as "normal JLA" vs. "insanely power-boosted murdering Hulk."
Which, as you correctly noted, is not a fair match.
It highly favors Hulk by design.
But then, Hulk is also facing the entire JLA here. So the question that the Threat Maker is asking seems to be this:Can the JLA, with normal personality and morality restrictions, take on Hulk at his most powerful/most murderous state, and hope to win a majority given these conditions?
...I would have to say no. But I also accept that such is my stance, and not everyone is going to share it.
Great post bud! 😄 [/B]
I agree with everything you've said here, and if you were to literally pluck the characters from the comics it would play out exactly in the way you've stated. I just feel that in a forum fight the characters are trying, within their personalities and powersets of course, and fully understand the intention is to "win the fight" rather than their usual mindset of "stop the monster". Depending on the circumstances, neither view would be "out of character" imo.
I still stand by the stance that the League would BFR via Boom Tube like they did to Darkseid. With Orion on the team here it's the obvious choice.
