Smaug vs. Balrog

Originally posted by ares834
Lol, Maiar aren't omnipotent or omniscience. Not even close. Heck, one of the mightiest of them, Melian, straight up said that no one could defeat the [b]dragon Glaurung. Also you keep ignoring the fact that humans never actually beat dragons one-on-one. Not to mention, dragons shattered entire armies of first age Elves.

Seems pretty clear you have no idea what you are talking about. [/B]

Dragons did turn the tide against First Age elves, which is pretty impressive considering First Age elves were badass.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Ecthelion's sheer manliness echoes through eternity, like Russel Crowe.

Tolkein couldn't even be bothered to describe Ancalagon.

In an older version, Gothmog wasn't his only Balrog kill of the day. Ecthelion is clearly a manifestation of Illuvatar in Gondolin.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I am not 100% sure, but I think that iffy sword of Balrog's could likely penetrate Smaug's armored hide. What are its best feats?

Originally posted by ares834
The "best" dragon, Ancalagon, was so big he crushed three mountains when he died... He destroys Gothmog and all the other balrogs at once.

And as I mentioned earlier, every time we have actually seen a dragon slain it isn't in a one-on-one battle. Heck, Turin, one of the great heroes of the Silmarillion, admitted he stood no chance against the dragon Glaurung in battle.

You really do have no clue do you... Fingolfin beat Melkor.. Fingolfin was elven... That is how powerful the elves were in the old world. Yet, when each of these great warriors and kings fought balrogs.. they usually always died themselves.

Shit, I don't even know why you mention Turin and Glaurung as he was killed and defeated by Turin. Yet you cite this as a reason why the dragons are more powerful than Balrogs lol. Odd. Shit Ancalago and a HOST of dragons were killed by an Elven King along with help.. but still killed.

Originally posted by Epicurus

I would say that it's breaking Gandalfs shield, granted it was destroyed in the proces, but that is the best (and only) indication we have moviewise.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You really do have no clue do you... Fingolfin beat Melkor.. Fingolfin was elven... That is how powerful the elves were in the old world. Yet, when each of these great warriors and kings fought balrogs.. they usually always died themselves.

Fingolfin didn't beat Melkor; he wounded him several times before being squashed like a bug. It was very impressive but Melkor was already established as being weaker for becoming more earthly and was initially too afraid to even come out of his throneroom and fight the elf lord.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I would say that it's breaking Gandalfs shield, granted it was destroyed in the proces, but that is the best (and only) indication we have moviewise.

Originally posted by Epicurus
A magical barrier, or a physical shield? If the former, then it's difficult(if not impossible) to compare it penetrating Smaug's hide, seeing how magic is involved. If the latter, then how durable is Gandalf's shied?

Magical Barrier, so it's tough to make a fair comparison to say the least. The best thing we have on Gandalfs shield is that it held back Sauron for a time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Fingolfin didn't beat Melkor; he wounded him several times before being squashed like a bug. It was very impressive but Melkor was already established as being weaker for becoming more earthly and was initially too afraid to even come out of his throneroom and fight the elf lord.

He hadn't become as weak as you claim.. that came later when he poured out his power into various things and objects. When Fingolfin confronted him... he hadn't reached that weakened state yet. Yet, the most powerful of the Ainur and yet Elven Royalty stood up to him and wounded him forever actually. Fingolfin wasn't even a ainur or maia.. and yet he still stood up and fought him. Sure he wasn't in his most powerful state but he also wasn't as weak as he would alter become when it took an all out assault on him by all parites to take him down.

ALso why are people acting like Gandalf the grey was so weak... he battled Sauron in the latest movie. Yet it took days and days to battle the balron and finally defeat him and even then he was also killed.

I'm also unclear how ares can say Istari had no omniscience.. they clearly do. Numerous times Galfalf would predict what was going to happen before it even happened. So clearly they had some form of Omniscience or the like. Not in totality like eru obviouly but clearly had some form of it. The alrogs are of the same origin as Galdalf so clearly they are very wise beings.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
he battled Sauron in the latest movie.

Crushed after days and days of battle and also died from it.

Gandalf died against Sauron? Odd really? lol

^You referred to the latest movie, where he was defeated within minutes by Sauron. Balrog on the other hand was vanquished. Balrog is vastly below Sauron's weight-class.

Actually that isn't true at all... Sauron actually was resentful of Gothmog's power and standing with Melkor. Gothmog was Melkor general in charge of his forces to protect him not Sauron. Somebody as powerful and all knowing as melkor doesn't put somebody inferior to someone else in charge of his own protection. The person put in charge was Gothmog "Lord of the Balrogs" not Sauron. Sauron was known for being crafty and savy not a warrior. So this whole notion that Balrogs are below Sauron in weight class is laughable.. VASTLY below as you claim is utterly retarded and goes against the Silm

^This is the movie version. Sauron defeated Gandalf in the movies. Balrog got crushed on the other hand. Not too difficult to grasp.

I think the point he (was?) making is that "crush" might be a bit of a strong term for a fight that lasted multiple days and ended in a double knock-out.

^Irrespective of what terms one uses here, Sauron easily defeated a being in Balrog's class within minutes. He's a whole tier above the Balrog.

Fair enough.

I think it can be difficult for people who are vested in the lore to conform to the "movie only" standards here. I know it was a problem for me when I used to participate in topics that involved Star Wars characters.

Originally posted by Epicurus
^Irrespective of what terms one uses here, Sauron easily defeated a being in Balrog's class within minutes. He's a whole tier above the Balrog.

Only problem is Balrogs aren't VASTLY below Sauron as you claim. In fact, as I pointed out... Sauron was below Gothmog in the ranks of military and battle feats. To ignore this just because it says movies only is retarded. We know for a facts thanks to the Sil that balrogs are very powerful and in fact have vastly more battle feats than Sauron. As I stated.. sauron was more like a politician not a warrior. So no, Sauron isn't vastly about a balrogs weight class.. that is bordering on retarded to even say so.

So sauron killed Gandalf?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only problem is Balrogs aren't VASTLY below Sauron as you claim. In fact, as I pointed out... Sauron was below Gothmog in the ranks of military and battle feats. To ignore this just because it says movies only is retarded. We know for a facts thanks to the Sil that balrogs are very powerful and in fact have vastly more battle feats than Sauron. As I stated.. sauron was more like a politician not a warrior. So no, Sauron isn't vastly about a balrogs weight class.. that is bordering on retarded to even say so.

So sauron killed Gandalf?

He defeated and imprisoned him within minutes. Which is leagues beyond getting killed after failing to defeat the same opponent in a fight lasting several days.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You really do have no clue do you... Fingolfin beat Melkor.. Fingolfin was elven... That is how powerful the elves were in the old world. Yet, when each of these great warriors and kings fought balrogs.. they usually always died themselves.

lol

Fingolfin did not beat Melkor. He wounded Morgoth, who at that point dispersed the majority of his power, a few times.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Shit, I don't even know why you mention Turin and Glaurung as he was killed and defeated by Turin.

Because it wasn't a fight... Turin hid in a ravine and when Glaurung was crawling above it stabbed him in the belly with what is likely the nastiest blade in ME.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Yet you cite this as a reason why the dragons are more powerful than Balrogs lol. Odd. Shit Ancalago and a HOST of dragons were killed by an Elven King along with help.. but still killed.

😂

That "help" was the Host of Valinor (Aka heaven) and a legion of birds. He didn't fight a legion of dragons himself he had a whole massive army of elves and maiar behind him...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He hadn't become as weak as you claim.. that came later when he poured out his power into various things and objects. When Fingolfin confronted him... he hadn't reached that weakened state yet. Yet, the most powerful of the Ainur and yet Elven Royalty stood up to him and wounded him forever actually. Fingolfin wasn't even a ainur or maia.. and yet he still stood up and fought him. Sure he wasn't in his most powerful state but he also wasn't as weak as he would alter become when it took an all out assault on him by all parites to take him down.

You really have no clue what you are talking about do you?

At this point Melkor was but a shadow of his former power. Initially, Melkor was mightier than all the Valar combined. But, when he was confronted by the Valar at the awakening of the elves his power was so dispersed that he was weaker than either Manwe or Tulkas.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sauron was below Gothmog in the ranks of military and battle feats.

It wasn't Gothmog who was became the master of darkness when Melkor was captured the first time...