Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dragons did turn the tide against First Age elves, which is pretty impressive considering First Age elves were badass.In an older version, Gothmog wasn't his only Balrog kill of the day. Ecthelion is clearly a manifestation of Illuvatar in Gondolin.
Okay, first off.
Ecthelion committed suicide at the end of Return of the King, Ecthelion the Fountain was beat by Gothmog the Balrog - and only managed to kill him, at the cost of his own life, by plunging both himself and the Balrog Captain into the Fountain.
Turin may not be the best warrior or as durable or agile as an Elf, but he is on spot #1 for combatants of the Elves, Dwarves, and Men followed by Feanor and Fingolfin because of his sword, helmet, strength and speed. Turin is like Hercules whereas Fingolfin is like Achilles.
Ecthelion wasn't defeated by Gothmog. He was grievously wounded earlier in the battle, and attacked Gothmog just as he was about to kill Turor (who tried to fight in Ecthelion's stead, as he was already wounded and had no weapon). In the resulting scuffle, Ecthelion stabbed him with his helm and then Batman'd them both into the fountain.
By the time Gothmog met Ecthelion in combat, he was already wounded and had no weapon. Ecthelion basically held his own with his bare hands, while crippled.
Feanor was in a similar situation, granted he was armed, after killing multiple Balrogs and being ambushed by a freakin army he did not lose his weapon and he still failed to defeat Gothmog. There was no fountain for Feanor to "Batman" Gothmog into. I am supremely confident that Ecthelion would have failed without the Fountain there, and that both Feanor and Fingolfin are superior combatants to Ecthelion.
Ecthelion killed three balrogs and fought part of Gothmog's army by himself, including dragons, before retreating to the Fountain and defeating Gothmog.
...whom he impaled with his helmet.
Feanor is an utter badass (my favorite character in LotR), but I'm not sure how "Feanor was ambushed by a bunch of Balrogs and killed" is an argument for Ecthelion versus Gothmog.
Originally posted by ares834
lolFingolfin did not beat Melkor. He wounded Morgoth, who at that point dispersed the majority of his power, a few times.
Because it wasn't a fight... Turin hid in a ravine and when Glaurung was crawling above it stabbed him in the belly with what is likely the nastiest blade in ME.
😂
That "help" was the Host of Valinor (Aka heaven) and a legion of birds. He didn't fight a legion of dragons himself he had a whole massive army of elves and maiar behind him...
You really have no clue what you are talking about do you?
At this point Melkor was but a shadow of his former power. Initially, Melkor was mightier than all the Valar combined. But, when he was confronted by the Valar at the awakening of the elves his power was so dispersed that he was weaker than either Manwe or Tulkas.
It wasn't Gothmog who was became the master of darkness when Melkor was captured the first time...
I said he was weaker but he was to become even weaker later on so he wasn't at his weakest point. Further, he didn't just wound him.. he permantly wounded him forever. Point is, powerful Elven people were able to compete with and kill dragons and balrogs... Difference being.. they usually died when killing a balrog but no true with dragons. No getting around that.
So him not being aware of his surroundings and being taken by surprise means what exactly? His reactions aren't the best? He doesn't have any precog like other maiar?
And? The dragons also had help from other balrogs.. orcs and host of other beasts melkor had created. So not sure why you listed a whole bunch of people on one side and failed to mention the host of others on the opposite side. Point is, he was killed and taken out.. just like usual with dragons.
Melkor put Gothmog in charge os his safety and in charge of his army... Sauron resented Gothmog and his position with Melkor. There is no getting around the fact that Melkor.. doesn't put somebody in charge of his safety and battle when they are inferior. If Sauron was stronger or more powerful he would've been put in charge. But he wasn't. Shit in most of the battles he wasn't even doing jack shit. yet, you're acting like he's some badass warrior.. he wasn't and melkor reconized it. He was a politiician and good at manipulating which is why he was put in charge of affairs.. not because he was the most powerful. Gothmog was aboev him in that regard. Maybe you should read up on the sil and post the battle feats of Sauron?
Originally posted by Epicurus
Based on the movies they are.He defeated and imprisoned him within minutes. Which is leagues beyond getting killed after failing to defeat the same opponent in a fight lasting several days.
Sorry but you said BalrogS.. plural. If you wree only talking about the movies you would've said balrog.. but you said S.. which means you were including all of them.. which as I've shown .. Sauron wasn't VASTLY above Balrogs.. Concession accepted.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I said he was weaker but he was to become even weaker later on so he wasn't at his weakest point. Further, he didn't just wound him.. he permantly wounded him forever. Point is, powerful Elven people were able to compete with and kill dragons and balrogs... Difference being.. they usually died when killing a balrog but no true with dragons. No getting around that.
Um, so? Once again, every time we've seen a dragon slain it is not a one-on-one battle.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So him not being aware of his surroundings and being taken by surprise means what exactly? His reactions aren't the best? He doesn't have any precog like other maiar?
facepalm
Not once is it mentioned that maiar have precog.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
And? The dragons also had help from other balrogs.. orcs and host of other beasts melkor had created. So not sure why you listed a whole bunch of people on one side and failed to mention the host of others on the opposite side. Point is, he was killed and taken out.. just like usual with dragons.
Uh, no they didn't... The armies of Orcs and Balrogs were destroyed by the time the winged dragons emerged.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Melkor put Gothmog in charge os his safety and in charge of his army... Sauron resented Gothmog and his position with Melkor.
lol, what? Where is this stated? Post the passage please.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There is no getting around the fact that Melkor.. doesn't put somebody in charge of his safety and battle when they are inferior. If Sauron was stronger or more powerful he would've been put in charge. But he wasn't. Shit in most of the battles he wasn't even doing jack shit. yet, you're acting like he's some badass warrior.. he wasn't and melkor reconized it. He was a politiician and good at manipulating which is why he was put in charge of affairs.. not because he was the most powerful. Gothmog was aboev him in that regard. Maybe you should read up on the sil and post the battle feats of Sauron?
Sauron was Morogth's second in command...
"Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void."
"But it was said afterwards among the Eldar that when Men awoke in Hildurien at the rising of the Sun the spies of Morgoth were watchful, and tidings were soon brought to him; and this seemed to him so great a matter that secretly under shadow he himself departed from Angband, and went forth into Middle-earth, leaving to Sauron the command of the War."
"There dwelt Thu (Sauron) the chief servant of Morgoth, a sorcerer of dreadful power, the lord of wolves."
Also, unlike Gothmog, Sauron actually defeated notable elves by himself. He captured Finrod on his own and killed both Elendil and Gil-Galad at the same time.
Meanwhile, Gothmog had help from other Balrogs against Feanor and Fingon and was killed when he challenged Ecthelion on his lonesome.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What people are also forgetting is that again Gothmog was IN CHARGE OF THE DRAGONS and other people fighting for Melkor.. Gothmog was the general. If ANY dragon was above him in power of formidability or planning.. they woud've been put in charge. They weren't.. they took orders from a balrog.
Gothmog never was in charge of Glaurung. In fact Glaurung also led Balrogs.
"In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined."
Also some other quotes I found in HoME:
"Maidros and the sons of Fëanor wrought great slaughter on Orc and Balrog and traitor Man that day, but the dragon they did not slay and the fire of his breath was the death of many."
"The number of a thousand Balrogs who came from Angband when 'Hell was emptied' shows once again (see II. 212 - 13 and p. 207), and more clearly than ever, that Morgoth's demons of fire were not conceived as rare or peculiarly terrible - unlike the Dragon."
Now, perhaps the 'last minute' change to Balrogs where Tolkien limited their number to between 3 and 7 would be greater than the great dragons. But unfortunately, Tolkien never wrote any first age stuff with these less numerous Balrogs. As such, an argument between these hypothetical Balrogs and Dragons is useless.
You forgot half the quote there.
"Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."
The "yet of all are they the most powerful" is a parenthetical element an 'aside'. Basically that sentence, if using proper English to analyze it, indicates the dragons are the most powerful of Morogth's creatures and the 2nd most evil. Of course, at that time Tolkien wrote that Balrogs weren't even Maiar but were instead made by Melko (aka Melkor). Not to mention dragons were basically living siege engines in these earlier writings and could have Orcs ride inside of them and were literally made of metal. So it isn't really useful either way.
Ares, I had no idea you were such an ardent fan of Tolkien. Excellent.
And yes, KT is really pulling shit out of thin air. I've read the Silmarillion multiple times (because I love the work), so it's exceedingly rare that I'd make such a gross mistake as the one he claimed I made and which you refuted; Melkor was greatly weakened by his endeavors and his strong ties to Middle-Earth and by the time Fingolfin challenged him, he was a shade of his former self. His subsequent stomping by the Valar was much easier than their earlier struggles with him before the Elves awoke.
Originally posted by ares834
You forgot half the quote there."Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."
The "yet of all are they the most powerful" is a parenthetical element an 'aside'. Basically that sentence, if using proper English to analyze it, indicates the dragons are the most powerful of Morogth's creatures and the 2nd most evil. Of course, at that time Tolkien wrote that Balrogs weren't even Maiar but were instead made by Melko (aka Melkor). Not to mention dragons were basically living siege engines in these earlier writings and could have Orcs ride inside of them and were literally made of metal. So it isn't really useful either way.
Fair enough. I thought it was useful just for seeing where Tolkien's mind was regarding their relative stations. I always thought they were of similar power as both of their best feats involve driving back powerful forces.
The Dragons - The Host of the Valar
The Balrogs - Ungoliant after she ensnared Morgoth after absorbing the light of the two trees and wanting the silmarils.
Outside of that I think the greatest dragon Ancalgon is definitely greater than the greatest Balrog, Gothmog.
As far as this specific match book wise, Durin's Bane broke a mountain side after it was tossed down by Gandalf, after fighting for days in a battle mistaken for a thunderstorm around the mountain peak of Zirakzigil, where Durin's Tower was ruined along with the Endless Stair, and I believe the elves mentioned the Dimrill Dale, there were sounds above ground of fighting in the deep and there was great clouds of smoke and vapor which I always though was the Balrog being extinguished going at it with Gandalf.
Smaug obviously destroyed the city of Dale, shook the Lonely Mountain to its roots with a mighty roar, or did he laugh? I can't remember, haven't read the Hobbit in a long time. He smashed the secret door and pathway with his tail I believe. He also crushed Lake Town just by falling on it, and I think he screamed so loud when he was killed trees fell over and boulders split apart.
Both have mountain feats and sacked dwarven kingdoms. Pretty close to me.
Movie wise, I think Smaug might have Peter Jackson's Balrog just due to pure size and he shook the mountain and caused an earthquake just pushing over a column. I think the movie Balrog only had that feat of trying to smash down that wall in the fellowship of the ring where the fellowship were on the stairs.
Originally posted by ares834
You forgot half the quote there."Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."
The "yet of all are they the most powerful" is a parenthetical element an 'aside'. Basically that sentence, if using proper English to analyze it, indicates the dragons are the most powerful of Morogth's creatures and the 2nd most evil. Of course, at that time Tolkien wrote that Balrogs weren't even Maiar but were instead made by Melko (aka Melkor). Not to mention dragons were basically living siege engines in these earlier writings and could have Orcs ride inside of them and were literally made of metal. So it isn't really useful either way.
Originally posted by ares834
You forgot half the quote there."Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."
The "yet of all are they the most powerful" is a parenthetical element an 'aside'. Basically that sentence, if using proper English to analyze it, indicates the dragons are the most powerful of Morogth's creatures and the 2nd most evil. Of course, at that time Tolkien wrote that Balrogs weren't even Maiar but were instead made by Melko (aka Melkor). Not to mention dragons were basically living siege engines in these earlier writings and could have Orcs ride inside of them and were literally made of metal. So it isn't really useful either way.
It doesn't matter if the Balrogs were created by Melkor, or Maiar that were seduced by Melkor's evil when Tolkien wrote that. The passage that Sensui posted is simple and self-explanatory. The balrogs were more powerful than the dragons. No way around it.
I am thinking Smaug wins, to be honest.
I haven't seen Desolation, but in movie 1, Gandalf implies that bad things would happen if he tried to manfight Smaug.
Whereas in Fellowship, he says that the Balrog is a foe that is "beyond any of you", not us, and he showed that he was willing to battle it and did so semi-successfully.
I dunno, I think the implication alone favors Smaug.
Originally posted by ares834
You forgot half the quote there."Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."
The "yet of all are they the most powerful" is a parenthetical element an 'aside'. Basically that sentence, if using proper English to analyze it, indicates the dragons are the most powerful of Morogth's creatures and the 2nd most evil. Of course, at that time Tolkien wrote that Balrogs weren't even Maiar but were instead made by Melko (aka Melkor). Not to mention dragons were basically living siege engines in these earlier writings and could have Orcs ride inside of them and were literally made of metal. So it isn't really useful either way.
Sounds more like a statement declaring that a dragon's power is second only to a Balrog's, though as you mentioned within the 'created by Melko', which later changed. In Fellowship, Legolas states Balrogs are the most powerful save Sauron.
That aside, I watched Desolation again; Smaug is very much larger than the Balrog and that whipping tail alone could likely smash.
Originally posted by NemeBro
I am thinking Smaug wins, to be honest.I haven't seen Desolation, but in movie 1, Gandalf implies that bad things would happen if he tried to manfight Smaug.
Whereas in Fellowship, he says that the Balrog is a foe that is "beyond any of you", not us, and he showed that he was willing to battle it and did so semi-successfully.
I dunno, I think the implication alone favors Smaug.