Ben Kenobi vs Count Dooku

Also, the same source states that Ben could hold off Vader but not defeat him, and also that Vader could not break through Ben's defenses. So they were at an impasse.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
1) Kenobi was training how to transcend death and appear to the living as a Force spirit, not how to be a better fighter.

2) The training did not last anywhere near 19 years since the majority of that time Ben was living in exile on Tattooine watching over Luke.

3) No, I'm quite sure that once he was on Tattooine Ben had no contact with Yoda, seeing as both of them were in hiding.

👆

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Tyranus curbstomps all three. Mismatch.

I'm pretty sure, Dooku could curbstomps sabers and all-out. I'm not sure about the force, since even Vader somehow wasn't able to break Kenobi's guard.
If Kenobi didin't become stronger in the force, that would mean, that Vader was toying with him, or Dooku's TK was better then Vader's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd say that Vader being a shadow of his former self has been conclusively retconned by The Force Unleashed

Depends. From my point a view TFU doesn't change anything. I believe, that Sidious was toying with Starkiller, and we can see him using his full power in the dark side ending. I believe, that he'was able to crush Starkiller the whole time. Vader couldn't, so Sidious is far above him in every way.

I have no idea why anyone would think TFU changes anything. Vader's best feats are during the Purge in various comics, not in TFU. Anakin's feats are better than Vader's anyway.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I have no idea why anyone would think TFU changes anything. Vader's best feats are during the Purge in various comics, not in TFU. Anakin's feats are better than Vader's anyway.

Now thats true, Anakin is ahead of Vader, due to Zonakin, and the ever important Mortakin, in regular combat though, I'm not exactly sure. Though I already posted that fight, its been buried partially though.

Originally posted by Zett
👆

I'm pretty sure, Dooku could curbstomps sabers and all-out. I'm not sure about the force, since even Vader somehow wasn't able to break Kenobi's guard.
If Kenobi didin't become stronger in the force, that would mean, that Vader was toying with him, or Dooku's TK was better then Vader's.

Depends. From my point a view TFU doesn't change anything. I believe, that Sidious was toying with Starkiller, and we can see him using his full power in the dark side ending. I believe, that he'was able to crush Starkiller the whole time. Vader couldn't, so Sidious is far above him in every way.

Vader canonically had at least 80% of Sidious' power. (Though I think thats the maximum as well)

Yeah, but I always considered is as raw power. He can be technically better in some force techniques (perhaps TK, for example) then Sidious. But if they both will mastered some technique to the highest degree, then Sidious' will be stronger.

Sidious would stomp Vader, not even worth discussing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious would stomp Vader, not even worth discussing.

This is true, but it's canon that he has 80% Sidious power.

I might not say stomp, though he would win.

It would be an effortless speedblitz.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It would be an effortless speedblitz.

So?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So?

So he's obviously not going to effortlessly stomp someone who is 80% as powerful as him.

If he could then Vader wouldn't be anywhere close to 80% as powerful.

Yes he is.

That's stupid.

@ Darth Power, Intrepid37

I agree, that pure force battle would be an effortless win for Sidious. I'm not sure about pure sabers duel, but considering Vader's all duels, I think, that it's possible for Sidious to blitz Vader. Anyway, easy win for Sidious again.
But all-out against might be hardest for Sidious. Vader can use his saber to defend himself againt FL, and can use TK to attack hist master. Sidious would win at the end, but in this scenario Vader has some chances.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
The hell are you talking about? He's above ROTS Kenobi, just his simple comments can make you see that. "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful then you can possibly imagine." AND "You can't win, Darth." Obi-Wan isn't one to over-exaggerate.

Well, and Vader killed Anakin ye? It's Kenobi's logic, nothing more. I think, that in Kenobi's point of view, he won this duel against Vader.
Vader killed him, so he became immortal as force ghost (= he won). If he would killed Vader, he would also won. because Vader would be dead.
But he wasn't stronger then his ROTS self. He became much weaker.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's stupid.

Originally posted by Zett

I agree, that pure force battle would be an effortless win for Sidious.

Nah, Vader's a TK Beast. I mean a Real Beast. And he can defend FL with his Saber.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Silver's argument recently persuaded me.

Silver's an interesting read for sure, but he seems to jump strides in some of his conclusions. He says for instance that Sidious could speed blitz Mace Windu(before he has a chance to fully submerge himself in Vappad). Which basically means he would speed blitz Dooku as well. That's just too out there when considering the movie fights (Yoda vs Dooku and Windu vs Sidious).

I stand by the argument that if it's silly to think Sidious is going to speed blitz someone who by Lucas's own words is 80% as powerful as himself. Tiin/Kolar/Fisto for instance are clearly not even close to being 50% as powerful as Sidious. Overall power has to account for speed.

I recently thought like you, but then, Sidious being slightly faster than Yoda is probably.

Regardless, sourcebooks have said that Mace hadn't even realized what had happened when Kit, Saesee and Agen had died. Lucas mentions that only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious; no mention of Anakin, Dooku, Kenobi, all of whom are even with Mace in speed if not faster, which leads me to believe that Yoda is the only one capable of competing with Sidious' speed on a regular basis, while Mace is the only one capable of channeling the darkness within him thanks to Vaapad.