Ben Kenobi vs Count Dooku

Originally posted by Zett
Well, and Vader killed Anakin ye? It's Kenobi's logic, nothing more. I think, that in Kenobi's point of view, he won this duel against Vader.
Vader killed him, so he became immortal as force ghost (= he won). If he would killed Vader, he would also won. because Vader would be dead.
But he wasn't stronger then his ROTS self. He became much weaker.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah, Vader's a TK Beast. I mean a Real Beast. And he can defend FL with his Saber.

Yeah, that's why I said, that Vader's best chances are in all-out. In pure force battle, he would not have lightsaber to defend himself against lightning. That's why I consider pre force battle as easy win for Sidious.

@Jmanghan

Yoda - GM of the Jedi Order, after about 800 years of traning was unable to kill Sidious. Kenobi wasn't even a match for Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious being slightly faster than Yoda is probably.

Don't see how anyone would come to that conclusion given that if anyone was winning the Saber fight between Yoda and Sidious, then it was Yoda.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Regardless, sourcebooks have said that Mace hadn't even realized what had happened when Kit, Saesee and Agen had died.

If that was literally true, then Mace would have also been cut down.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Lucas mentions that only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious; no mention of Anakin, Dooku, Kenobi, all of whom are even with Mace in speed if not faster,

Well Anakin and Kenobi would simply get TK stomped by Sidious, same way he TK stomped Maul and Opress.

As for Count Dooku, Lucas's statement was in reference to the Jedi Mace took with him to challenge Sidious. Dooku is neither a Jedi, nor is he even alive at the point in question.

Also it depends what Lucas means by "compete"? Does he mean just put up a fight, or does he mean actually having a chance at defeating Sidious? If he means the latter then Dooku obviously should not be included, if however he means the former, then Dooku has already displayed he can put up a fight against Yoda. So there's absolutely no reason to believe that he couldn't at least put up a fight against Sidious as well.

So context needs to be considered in Lucas's statement.

The much more relevant statement of Lucas Imho is Vader being 80% as powerful as Sidious, given that was a direct comparison of power without any specific context that could alter it's meaning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Don't see how anyone would come to that conclusion given that if anyone was winning the Saber fight between Yoda and Sidious, then it was Yoda.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If that was literally true, then Mace would have also been cut down.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well Anakin and Kenobi would simply get TK stomped by Sidious, same way he TK stomped Maul and Opress.

Anakin never witnessed Sidious' fight. And Anakins TK feats are nowhere near a tier above Windu's. If anything, Windu is a tier above him.

LOL. Mace's TK feats are barely above Savage's if at all.

And Anakins are?

Yes.

Only in CW material, which I'll remind you has Mace still outperforming Anakin plus this:

That stupid feat with Anakin pushing a platform is still fail.

Even outside CW material Anakin has casually moved Durge's escape pod in Obsession and with a Force Scream collapsed a thirty meter high/ninety meter wide building.

In space, which I'll remind you makes things weightless and that was a pissed off Anakin with the scream. Also looking at the comic with Durge, Anakin doesn't do it casually, since he's clutching his head afterwards.

Mace has lifted a tank with the Force and pulverised a group of droids into scrap with a Force Wave. Plus he has his feats from Shatterpoint where he did some impressive stuff with a landslide.

IIRC the pod was actually attached to the ship, so he had to push it out. And I don't recall he was pissed.

When did he lift a tank? He had to visibly gather energy to push a tank off a cliff. Collapsing a thirty meter tall dome facility is vastly superior. 😬

And in Shatterpoint IIRC he failed to save a few civilians because he wasn't powerful enough to move the landslide.

It doesn't look like he pushed it out as opposed to just you know, activating it. It is an escape pod after all. He was pissed off at Dooku as I recall, who was taunting him.

Thats what I was referring to. And I would disagree with you on that, the force needed to push a huge tank would be about the same as is needed to smash a roof.

"The something he did was to reach deep through the Force until he could feel a structure of broken rock ten meters below him and five meters in from the face. He thought, Why wait? and shoved.

The dirt cliff shook, buckled, and collapsed.

With a subterranean roar that buried even the thunder of the eruption and the clamor of the steamcrawler's laboring engine, hundreds of tons of dirt and rock poured into the river of lava, organics bursting into flames that the growing landslide instantly smothered as it built itself into a huge wedge-shaped berm of raw dirt across the gully; as lava slowly bulged and climbed the upstream face, the downstream side of the cliff continued to collapse, piling over cooler lava that hardened beneath it, pushing the hotter, more liquid lava into a wave that washed around the steamcrawler's side, welled to the lip of the precipice, then plunged in a rain of fire upon the black jungle far below.

The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin. Nearly all his concentration stayed submerged in the Force, spread throughout the slide, using a wide-focus Force grip to stabilize the rubble while he scrambled down to the steamcrawler's roof."

He still moved it to send it into the sun, so he still pushed it.

Eh... did you actually read the book? He admitted that he wouldn't be able to do with TK.

Mace opened himself to the Force. He could hear Yoda's voice: Size matters not-which, Mace had always privately considered, was more true for Yoda than it was for any of his students. Yoda would probably just reach out, lift the steamcrawler from the gully, and ca sually float it up the mountain to the outpost while croaking some enigmatic maxim about how Even a volcano is as nothing, compared to the power of the Force... Mace was much less confident in his own raw power.

But he had other talents.

And Anakin was not pissed.

In the ruined archive hall of LiMerge Power's plasma facility, Count Dooku waited for Kenobi and Skywalker to arrive. The room was enormous by any standard, thirty meters high and three times that in circumference. Dooku could imagine it when it had hummed with life and activity, before the catastrophe. Still, that it had remained intact was a testament to its builders. And with its curved walls of holobooks and data storage disks - - irradiated beyond salvage - - he accepted that some might believe that secrets of the most sinister sort were concealed here.

Dragging himself out from under plasteel girders and chunks of ferrocrete, Count Dooku came shakily to his feet and gazed in astonished disbelief at the shambles of the control room. Had the containment dome been so weak that it had succumbed to flurries of ricocheting blaster bolts, or had Skywalker's voiced rage actually called the ceiling down? Had Dooku not leapt forcefully at the last moment, he might have been buried, as the two Jedi were, somewhere below, in the expanse of rubble that covered the archive room. He was certain that they had survived. But if nothing else they were trapped, which had been the intent from the start. But Skywalker...

Assuming that he had grown powerful enough to have collapsed the dome, the end result was simply further evidence that he would someday undo himself. Wasn't it? Because admitting to any alternative explanation meant accepting that Skywalker was potentially a greater threat to the Sith than anyone realized.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He still moved it to send it into the sun, so he still pushed it.

Lol, do you not see that the pods engines are on? All he did was direct its movement, its pushing itself.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Eh... did you actually read the book? He admitted that he wouldn't be able to do with TK.

Mace opened himself to the Force. He could hear Yoda's voice: Size matters not-which, Mace had always privately considered, was more true for Yoda than it was for any of his students. Yoda would probably just reach out, lift the steamcrawler from the gully, and ca sually float it up the mountain to the outpost while croaking some enigmatic maxim about how Even a volcano is as nothing, compared to the power of the Force... Mace was much less confident in his own raw power.

But he had other talents.

Yeah, I know he couldn't lift the steamcrawler, but he was directing the landslide/

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And Anakin was not pissed.

In the ruined archive hall of LiMerge Power's plasma facility, Count Dooku waited for Kenobi and Skywalker to arrive. The room was enormous by any standard, thirty meters high and three times that in circumference. Dooku could imagine it when it had hummed with life and activity, before the catastrophe. Still, that it had remained intact was a testament to its builders. And with its curved walls of holobooks and data storage disks - - irradiated beyond salvage - - he accepted that some might believe that secrets of the most sinister sort were concealed here.

Dragging himself out from under plasteel girders and chunks of ferrocrete, Count Dooku came shakily to his feet and gazed in astonished disbelief at the shambles of the control room. Had the containment dome been so weak that it had succumbed to flurries of ricocheting blaster bolts, or had Skywalker's voiced rage actually called the ceiling down? Had Dooku not leapt forcefully at the last moment, he might have been buried, as the two Jedi were, somewhere below, in the expanse of rubble that covered the archive room. He was certain that they had survived. But if nothing else they were trapped, which had been the intent from the start. But Skywalker...

Assuming that he had grown powerful enough to have collapsed the dome, the end result was simply further evidence that he would someday undo himself. Wasn't it? Because admitting to any alternative explanation meant accepting that Skywalker was potentially a greater threat to the Sith than anyone realized.

Nice reading skills, buddy. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, do you not see that the pods engines are on? All he did was direct its movement, its pushing itself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I know he couldn't lift the steamcrawler, but he was directing the landslide/

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nice reading skills, buddy. 👆

Do you even know the point of a Force Scream? It is when a Force user releases a scream out of anger... of course he's gonna be angry.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Where?

The four glowing things on the back of the pod.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He nearly cried.

What a pussy.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lol

Do you even know the point of a Force Scream? It is when a Force user releases a scream out of [b]anger... of course he's gonna be angry. [/B]

Thus why its an attack that draws on an anger Anakin usually suppresses.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The four glowing things on the back of the pod.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What a pussy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thus why its an attack that draws on an anger Anakin usually suppresses.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Look at when it's flying into the sun, it's moving far faster than before because Anakin pushed it.

'Least Stover doesn't wank his favorite characters.

Yes. Any dark side power draws on anger. That's why a Force Scream happens involuntary but is still a demonstration of power. This isn't complicated.

No it isn't. Its impossible to tell speed or time in those panels.

The RotS novel is basically nothing else by furious handjobs to all the PT characters. 😬

Yes, and Anakin drawing on the darkside isn't representative of his usual abilities.

So really, how is Anakin a tier or two above Windu? Because I'm not seeing it so far.

Cmon lol. In the third scan it's easy to see.

It's Anakin's only appearance where I like him.

lol
Scream is a dark side power. Jedi are light side users. This means it's a power he normally doesn't use, but it doesn't mean it doesn't showcase his abilities.