Originally posted by -Pr-No arguments here. It's all about the surroundings for these intended powers.
No, I get that. I actually agree with you.My point is that were Doomsday to be written for the Hulk rather than Superman, Hulk's infinite strength wouldn't matter in the end, because the entire point of a character like Doomsday is to be a John Cena-esque "overcome the odds and win" shtick, regardless of what's put in front of him.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆Although saying that, Doomsday would NOT be Doomsday anymore i.e. he would have a different powerset. He'd be given the kind of adapt on the fly evolution h1a8 could only dream about, which is to say instantaneous, like a Darwin or Nemesis Kid. And against Hulk, that would be....another Hulk. But with a faster dynamic strength level.
I feel like a proper Hulk antithesis wouldn't be strength based as matching Hulk strength to strength would fly in the face of "writer's intent". More like one who can exploit areas where Hulk is weak (lack if mobility, no ranged attack unless at HoTM levels) or better yet someone who can take away his primary advantage (strength) by draining away his anger or gamma radiation.
I also feel like such a character would have no need for bulky muscle and be more lean than massive. Would be mellow, perhaps similar to a skateboarder high on weed or maybe even a surfer. And such a character wouldn't be colored a dull green color but instead would shine like gold or maybe even silver...
😖hifty:
Originally posted by Nibedicus
I feel like a proper Hulk antithesis wouldn't be strength based as matching Hulk strength to strength would fly in the face of "writer's intent". More like one who can exploit areas where Hulk is weak (lack if mobility, no ranged attack unless at HoTM levels) or better yet someone who can take away his primary advantage (strength) by draining away his anger or gamma radiation.I also feel like such a character would have no need for bulky muscle and be more lean than massive. Would be mellow, perhaps similar to a skateboarder high on weed or maybe even a surfer. And such a character wouldn't be colored a dull green color but instead would shine like gold or maybe even silver...
😖hifty:
Can fly - check.
Ranged attack - check.
Can drain radiation - check.
Lean, no muscle mass - check.
Mellow - check.
Shines like gold - check.
Death of Hulk.
Originally posted by Brockalizer
I'm glad you two posted those scans, because they perfectly illustrates the crux of the debate over writers intent for both characters. Both are very powerful in their own right, there is no debating that fact. And both are quite capable of becoming even more powerful than they were when the fight starts, again there is very little room for debate there as well. The difference is, and this is why I'm giving Hulk the victory, Doomsday needs to die to get stronger, Hulk does not.
This is spot on, both characters are intended by the writers to be essentially unstoppable forces...but the concept behind hulks characterization is stronger than that behind doomsdays. For doomsday he is intended to be "ultimately" unstoppable. He can't be beaten the same way twice because even if you find a way to beat him, he will adapt and return even more powerful than before. Doomsdays unstoppability lies in the eventuality/ inevitability of your defeat. He will always return better and stronger ( save physical force which always seems to work curiously enough)so there is ultimately no hope.
For the hulk, however at the core of character is that he is the strongest one there is and that strength can overcome absolutely all odds. It doesn't matter that he shouldn't be able to hit intangible beings, he does so because he is strong. Your much faster than him? He will still hit you and knock you out because he is strong. Grab energy? He can because he is strong. Try draining his energy? He'll resist because he is strong. Punch time barriers ? Chalk that up to strength. Continuously defy even relatively stable comic book laws? Yup because he is that strong and strength overcomes all. Even if you by some chance come in stronger than him.....then he will only get stronger and that strength can overcome all obstacles. That's the essence of the character and why there hasn't been any need to give him any added versatility. He is the strongest one there is and that's all he needs to be. That idea is what is behind the " infinite strength" moniker.
Hence on a conceptual level, it wouldn't matter how much better doomsday came back or adapted to be, hulk would just get as strong as he needs to be to beat him again. That's what infinite strength does, and that's why he is the strongest one there is.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆Although saying that, Doomsday would NOT be Doomsday anymore i.e. he would have a different powerset. He'd be given the kind of adapt on the fly evolution h1a8 could only dream about, which is to say instantaneous, like a Darwin or Nemesis Kid. And against Hulk, that would be....another Hulk. But with a faster dynamic strength level.
I agree generally but Hulks encounter with Darwin in WWH showed conceptually IMO what happens when a character whose essence lies in adapting to threats faces a character whose essence is in his strength overcoming all. Darwin adapted a solution to the hulk problem....and it worked..until it didn't. And hulks strength overcame it. To beat the hulk conceptually you would have to effectively be "stronger" than thé strongest one there is. All that fancy schmancy stuff doesn't cut it.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆Although saying that, Doomsday would NOT be Doomsday anymore i.e. he would have a different powerset. He'd be given the kind of adapt on the fly evolution h1a8 could only dream about, which is to say instantaneous, like a Darwin or Nemesis Kid. And against Hulk, that would be....another Hulk. But with a faster dynamic strength level.
Darwin almost died from a single hit. Crazy thing about this is, Darwin body tried to find a defense against Hulk and the only thing it could come up with was a self bfr. Adaptation would have to be above Darwin's ability imo...especially going by their confrontation.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Hulk/hulkvsxmen9.jpg
Originally posted by Nibedicus
I feel like a proper Hulk antithesis wouldn't be strength based as matching Hulk strength to strength would fly in the face of "writer's intent". More like one who can exploit areas where Hulk is weak (lack if mobility, no ranged attack unless at HoTM levels) or better yet someone who can take away his primary advantage (strength) by draining away his anger or gamma radiation.I also feel like such a character would have no need for bulky muscle and be more lean than massive. Would be mellow, perhaps similar to a skateboarder high on weed or maybe even a surfer. And such a character wouldn't be colored a dull green color but instead would shine like gold or maybe even silver...
😖hifty:
Clearly, you are on to something.
Originally posted by Naija boyIf first death means a forum loss then that would probably mean a win for Hulk. But if this is a fight to the very end where one of them can no longer fight and will not be getting back up...
Hence on a conceptual level, it wouldn't matter how much better doomsday came back or adapted to be, hulk would just get as strong as he needs to be to beat him again. That's what infinite strength does, and that's why he is the strongest one there is.
If Doomsday keeps adapting and his adaptation is purely strength based, at some point he may be strong enough to actually beat the Hulk down and kill him before Hulk has the chance to ramp his strength - in which case Hulk's potential to get stronger won't come in to play and Doomsday wins. This has happened to Hulk before (the beaten before he ramps up part, not killed).
On the other hand as others have mentioned, the adaptation may not be strength based - what if Doomsday came back as a being of pure antimatter and annihilated every atom in the Hulk's body? Or some ultimate energy leech? Or something that could shut Hulk's mind down, or suck out his soul like the soul gem, or something that could replicate in Hulk's body the exact reaction that turns him back into Banner (like the weapon in Infinity)? Not to mention even more crazy adaptations like matter/reality manipulation along the lines of some of Marvel's most powerful mutants - say evolve into Franklin's genetic structure?
Originally posted by carver9Evolution doesn't result in the only solution or even necessarily the "best" one. If Darwin's reactive powers work on the same principle then BFR was just one possible solution, and it worked, so no other solutions eventuated once the danger was removed. That is not to say they didn't exist. Perhaps his body selected something that was 100% guaranteed to save him over something that had 99% chance of defeating Hulk but still 1% chance that Hulk would win.
Darwin almost died from a single hit. Crazy thing about this is, Darwin body tried to find a defense against Hulk and the only thing it could come up with was a self bfr. Adaptation would have to be above Darwin's ability imo...especially going by their confrontation.
Originally posted by basilisk
If first death means a forum loss then that would probably mean a win for Hulk. But if this is a fight to the very end where one of them can no longer fight and will not be getting back up...If Doomsday keeps adapting and his adaptation is purely strength based, at some point he may be strong enough to actually beat the Hulk down and kill him before Hulk has the chance to ramp his strength - in which case Hulk's potential to get stronger won't come in to play and Doomsday wins. This has happened to Hulk before (the beaten before he ramps up part, not killed).
On the other hand as others have mentioned, the adaptation may not be strength based - what if Doomsday came back as a being of pure antimatter and annihilated every atom in the Hulk's body? Or some ultimate energy leech? Or something that could shut Hulk's mind down, or suck out his soul like the soul gem, or something that could replicate in Hulk's body the exact reaction that turns him back into Banner (like the weapon in Infinity)? Not to mention even more crazy adaptations like matter/reality manipulation along the lines of some of Marvel's most powerful mutants - say evolve into Franklin's genetic structure?
Evolution doesn't result in the only solution or even necessarily the "best" one. If Darwin's reactive powers work on the same principle then BFR was just one possible solution, and it worked, so no other solutions eventuated once the danger was removed. That is not to say they didn't exist. Perhaps his body selected something that was 100% guaranteed to save him over something that had 99% chance of defeating Hulk but still 1% chance that Hulk would win.
He evolved and killed Radion, an energy being by negating his energy. He did the same thing to waverider when he dispersed his chronal energy form after adapting to his chronal energies. That's haxxed beyond belief.
Wait, wait, wait
On one hand We have a character that by writers intent gents stronger the madder he gets and potentially is the strongest one there is, he has hf, but he still has organs and fluids.
On the other hand We have this solid mass, with out organs and minimal fluids that is an engine of destruction, who also happens to have dynamic strength, but on top of that IIRC he poisons you every time he hitS you and adapts in some cases on the fly and as stated by the writers intent "if SOMEHOW He were to find someone stronger than him,and get killed, he will come back to life, even stronger"
Am I missing something?
So lets say Hulk fights Doomsday and Hulk wins by getting strong enough to destroy a city, then DD comes back at that power level. Hulk has to work his way up to the previous level of strength now, but since DD has evolved that level of strength will not be enough, so hulk will need to ramp it up, to country busting level, now DD comes back to life and Hulk who starts at base decides to engage DD again, since DD is already at country busting power level and hulk is not, DD rips Hulk's head off. Now after that Hulk comes back to life... oh wait Hulk does not comes back to life.
Like I said, is a fight that Hulk is bound to loose eventually.
And take into account that average portrays of the Hulk are not WBH, so Hulk is screwed really bad on most of his incarnations.
Originally posted by basilisk
If first death means a forum loss then that would probably mean a win for Hulk. But if this is a fight to the very end where one of them can no longer fight and will not be getting back up...If Doomsday keeps adapting and his adaptation is purely strength based, at some point he may be strong enough to actually beat the Hulk down and kill him before Hulk has the chance to ramp his strength - in which case Hulk's potential to get stronger won't come in to play and Doomsday wins. This has happened to Hulk before (the beaten before he ramps up part, not killed).
On the other hand as others have mentioned, the adaptation may not be strength based - what if Doomsday came back as a being of pure antimatter and annihilated every atom in the Hulk's body? Or some ultimate energy leech? Or something that could shut Hulk's mind down, or suck out his soul like the soul gem, or something that could replicate in Hulk's body the exact reaction that turns him back into Banner (like the weapon in Infinity)? Not to mention even more crazy adaptations like matter/reality manipulation along the lines of some of Marvel's most powerful mutants - say evolve into Franklin's genetic structure?
I don't think Doomsdays adaptation works in the manner you are suggesting or is the end all be all power that you seem to be putting forward. The scope of Doomsdays adaptation has not been shown to be as extensive as what you are suggesting I.e adapting reality manip or anti matter and what not. Not even close really. Moreover conceptually if taking hulks strength for what it is intended to be, it wouldn't matter what the adaptation is.....as hulks strength would just overcome it. It wouldn't have to make sense how....hulk just would.
Moreover as per Pak the character who took the hulk to his most powerful ever form, the hulk true nature is that he can be as strong is he needs/ wants to be. Hence forth if we are talking on a strictly conceptual level it is impossible to adapt to be stronger than the strongest one there.....it's the whole point of being the strongest one there is. The unique nature of hulks strength also gives him the ability to resist virtually everything thrown at him....which is why it is more than just strength. He has actually resisted time manips, antimatter , phasing attacks, matter manip, grabbed energy, hit intangible beings, etc on the basis of strength alone. Hence his strength serves as a plot device through which writers can have him overcome any obstacle they wish.....regardless of whether strength should be relevant to it or not. Thinking its just about being strong and not directly in relation to combat is shortsighted and misses the point of the character IMHO. Hulk epitomizes the general comic truism that strength> than everything else as his strength is dynamic force of infinite power that can overcome any challenge. Hence he doesn't need anything powers barring his strength and other strength related powers ( HF, durability etc)
Originally posted by Naija boy
I don't think Doomsdays adaptation works in the manner you are suggesting or is the end all be all power that you seem to be putting forward. The scope of Doomsdays adaptation has not been shown to be as extensive as what you are suggesting I.e adapting reality manip or anti matter and what not. Not even close really. Moreover conceptually if taking hulks strength for what it is intended to be, it wouldn't matter what the adaptation is.....as hulks strength would just overcome it. It wouldn't have to make sense how....hulk just would.Moreover as per Pak the character who took the hulk to his most powerful ever form, the hulk true nature is that he can be as strong is he needs/ wants to be. Hence forth if we are talking on a strictly conceptual level it is impossible to adapt to be stronger than the strongest one there.....it's the whole point of being the strongest one there is. The unique nature of hulks strength also gives him the ability to resist virtually everything thrown at him....which is why it is more than just strength. He has actually resisted time manips, antimatter , phasing attacks, matter manip, grabbed energy, hit intangible beings, etc on the basis of strength alone. Hence his strength serves as a plot device through which writers can have him overcome any obstacle they wish.....regardless of whether strength should be relevant to it or not. Thinking its just about being strong and not directly in relation to combat is shortsighted and misses the point of the character IMHO. Hulk epitomizes the general comic truism that strength> than everything else as his strength is dynamic force of infinite power that can overcome any challenge. Hence he doesn't need anything powers barring his strength and other strength related powers ( HF, durability etc)
I'm not sure what the limitations of Doomsday's powers are. But in Marvel all it takes is a few genes like Franklin's got, and you can become a god. Maybe Doomsday is capable of eventually creating that DNA, maybe not. But if he is, then I don't think any of Hulk's strength tricks can possibly help him.
Doomsday's limitations seem to be Entropy, the one thing he could not adapt to defeat based off of Imperiex and Hunter Prey.
I voted for DD, since this is writer's intent. And if the writer intends for DD to kill the Ultimate Hero, then in Marvel, he would be presented as something beyond any individual hero. The boogeyman to all superheroes including the strongest one there is.
I think if it was just a one shot story, then the Hulk would defeat the Ultimate, at the cost of his own life just like Superman. If DD is a returning character then each additional encounter the Hulk would need the Avengers just as Superman needed help to combat DD.
Otherwise what would be the point of introducing a character like DD into the Hulk's ongoing thematic narrative?
Originally posted by basilisk
I'm not sure what the limitations of Doomsday's powers are. But in Marvel all it takes is a few genes like Franklin's got, and you can become a god. Maybe Doomsday is capable of eventually creating that DNA, maybe not. But if he is, then I don't think any of Hulk's strength tricks can possibly help him.
When has Doomsday powers EVER worked like that? The only time it has was during the Clone saga and that doesn't count for Doomsday (and trust me, you don't want it to count for him either).
Originally posted by basilisk
I'm not sure what the limitations of Doomsday's powers are. But in Marvel all it takes is a few genes like Franklin's got, and you can become a god. Maybe Doomsday is capable of eventually creating that DNA, maybe not. But if he is, then I don't think any of Hulk's strength tricks can possibly help him.
