Originally posted by psycho gundam
^ retcon. he got legitimately taken to his limit back then by a peer. his durability doesn't fall under the "holding back" umbrella anyway.
Why is a retcon not valid?
His durability does increase under stress though, due to increased solar absorption.
I get that writer intent comes in to it, but if we're not ignoring the retcon, then, as hard as it would be, I still think Superman would win.
Originally posted by -Pr-If by "only lasted as long," you mean "beat the sh1t out of Superman" before they ended up killing each other, ok, sure, Doomsday "only lasted that long."
DC flat out stated years later that DD only lasted as long as he did because Superman held back.
Originally posted by -Pr-They'd probably kill each other again.
DD didn't.Superman would win.
Originally posted by ODG
If by "only lasted as long," you mean "beat the sh1t out of Superman" before they ended up killing each other, ok, sure, Doomsday "only lasted that long." They'd probably kill each other again.
If you took my statement as me saying that Superman looked superior during the fight, that wasn't my intention.
Originally posted by BrockalizerEven when he went all-out against WW and BA, all his stats remained the same. Superman has face countless foes on his level that he was forced to give it his all, his strength, durability, heat vision and freeze breath does not increase because he stops holding back. Look at it like this... take a corvette on the highway driving with regular cars, the vette rides along with the other cars until the driver stops holding back the vettes power and streaks far ahead of the regular cars even if the other cars try and keep up.... Now further up that highway, the vette runs into vipers, ss camaros and turbocharged mustangs, the driver of the vette can stop holding back all he wants and find out that those supercars can match him and some can leave him in the dust. In other words, the vette APPEARS to be even with the regular cars it hangs around with until the driver hits the gas, BUT that illusion fades when put up against equal cars or faster more powerful cars. In order for that vette to treat the supercars like it treated the regular cars, the owner has to add more power ( sundip ) to his corvette. He can wish all he wants, but until he adds a supercharger or some outside form of boost ( sundip ) his cars power is set in stone. DD wins in a tuff fight.
Yet when "shit got real" during the DoS arc it remained unchanged.
Originally posted by JBL
Even when he went all-out against WW and BA, all his stats remained the same. Superman has face countless foes on his level that he was forced to give it his all, his strength, durability, heat vision and freeze breath does not increase because he stops holding back. Look at it like this... take a corvette on the highway driving with regular cars, the vette rides along with the other cars until the driver stops holding back the vettes power and streaks far ahead of the regular cars even if the other cars try and keep up.... Now further up that highway, the vette runs into vipers, ss camaros and turbocharged mustangs, the driver of the vette can stop holding back all he wants and find out that those supercars can match him and some can leave him in the dust. In other words, the vette APPEARS to be even with the regular cars it hangs around with until the driver hits the gas, BUT that illusion fades when put up against equal cars or faster more powerful cars. In order for that vette to treat the supercars like it treated the regular cars, the owner has to add more power ( sundip ) to his corvette. He can wish all he wants, but until he adds a supercharger or some outside form of boost ( sundip ) his cars power is set in stone. DD wins in a tuff fight.
I like this analogy
Originally posted by -Pr-Solar absorption, yes, that's his power source, and outside amp. Superman cannot one day stop holding back and increase his stats without a sun amp. He cannot stop holding back and rise above the likes of DD, CM, BA, or any of his equals without a sun amp. He absorbs more sunlight to replenish his stats under stress because under stress his body use up his reserves faster than he could normally replenish, thus his body has to absorb more to keep up. That in no way relates to dynamic strength. Superman himself states that he holds back around normal people and weaker foes because of his fear of killing one or more of them.... Now when he has faced a foe of equal stats or greater stats, he gives it his all and has been shown to be even or the underdog in battle. Dynamic strength is not in supermans powerset, what writers did was water him down from the days of pre-crisis superman who they had a hard time finding a foe that superman that he would not one-shot. If he had dynamic strength, then it would defeat the purpose of them presenting foes and friends of equal or greater stats. And as it stands, those foes or friends on that level have stats set in stone and are still to this day considered peers or greater than superman, and no writer has ever stated they are until superman stops holding back. Scans can be twisted and shaped to the posters desire, but 50+ years of combat and potrayal cannot. It would be a good fight, but DD wins IMO.
he has dynamic strength based on solar absorption.also, bad analogy.
Originally posted by JBL
Solar absorption, yes, that's his power source, and outside amp. Superman cannot one day stop holding back and increase his stats without a sun amp. He cannot stop holding back and rise above the likes of DD, CM, BA, or any of his equals without a sun amp. He absorbs more sunlight to replenish his stats under stress because under stress his body use up his reserves faster than he could normally replenish, thus his body has to absorb more to keep up. That in no way relates to dynamic strength. Superman himself states that he holds back around normal people and weaker foes because of his fear of killing one or more of them.... Now when he has faced a foe of equal stats or greater stats, he gives it his all and has been shown to be even or the underdog in battle. Dynamic strength is not in supermans powerset, what writers did was water him down from the days of pre-crisis superman who they had a hard time finding a foe that superman that he would not one-shot. If he had dynamic strength, then it would defeat the purpose of them presenting foes and friends of equal or greater stats. And as it stands, those foes or friends on that level have stats set in stone and are still to this day considered peers or greater than superman, and no writer has ever stated they are until superman stops holding back. Scans can be twisted and shaped to the posters desire, but 50+ years of combat and potrayal cannot. It would be a good fight, but DD wins IMO.
So you wrote a long winded version of saying you don't know Superman but want to ignore evidence.
Originally posted by JBL
Even when he went all-out against WW and BA, all his stats remained the same.
Mm, can't be sure about that. In the WW fight, he was definitely going at high speed even for him, certainly, and he managed to punch her from the earth to the sun in like 2 seconds, which is crazy!
And I think 'going all out' helps *most* people. If your adrenaline is pumping, if you're totally focused, you're going to cling to consciousness that much harder, punch that much harder, etc.. It's not necessarily just a superman thing.
I mean, how many times have we seen heralds in a team book get taken down by a foe, then turn it around for a second try and do much better even if it's still a contest of power?
Originally posted by Delta1938There is a KMC superman and the superman that appears in the comics. You are right, i dont know KMC superman. but i know the one in the comics from the time he could not fly to present day. Answer this question. When superman is deprived of sunlight, what happens?
So you wrote a long winded version of saying you don't know Superman but want to ignore evidence.
Originally posted by JBL
Solar absorption, yes, that's his power source, and outside amp. Superman cannot one day stop holding back and increase his stats without a sun amp. He cannot stop holding back and rise above the likes of DD, CM, BA, or any of his equals without a sun amp. He absorbs more sunlight to replenish his stats under stress because under stress his body use up his reserves faster than he could normally replenish, thus his body has to absorb more to keep up. That in no way relates to dynamic strength. Superman himself states that he holds back around normal people and weaker foes because of his fear of killing one or more of them.... Now when he has faced a foe of equal stats or greater stats, he gives it his all and has been shown to be even or the underdog in battle. Dynamic strength is not in supermans powerset, what writers did was water him down from the days of pre-crisis superman who they had a hard time finding a foe that superman that he would not one-shot. If he had dynamic strength, then it would defeat the purpose of them presenting foes and friends of equal or greater stats. And as it stands, those foes or friends on that level have stats set in stone and are still to this day considered peers or greater than superman, and no writer has ever stated they are until superman stops holding back. Scans can be twisted and shaped to the posters desire, but 50+ years of combat and potrayal cannot. It would be a good fight, but DD wins IMO.
Dynamic strength has been in his powerset for years. The comics blatantly show him having that extra gear even when up against his peers.
His stats haven't been "set in stone" at all in the last few decades, so I really don't know why you keep stating that they are.
The very nature of the character requires fluid power levels.
Originally posted by JBL
There is a KMC superman and the superman that appears in the comics. You are right, i dont know KMC superman. but i know the one in the comics from the time he could not fly to present day. Answer this question. When superman is deprived of sunlight, what happens?
No, you don't know comic Superman. It's been pointed-out that his mind effects his powers. That's why Mongul II was training Superman, to overcome the mental blocks. You can see examples from the first Imperiex Probe fight before OWAW and through-out, including the fight where Superman faces tons of Probes and the narration states he's unleashed. UP, UP, AND AWAY also showed Superman's powers boosting due to his mind. You're making arguments to try and divert from the actual point.
Originally posted by Q99You are correct. It applies to many characters, but people seem to get plot mixed up with dynamic strength. Did spiderman get dynamic strength when he beat firelord? firelord has given surfer and thor fits. But spiderman fans can twist that to support said claim of dynamic strength. Being peer to the likes of CM and others for so long tell the story. There is no until except for characters like the hulk.
Mm, can't be sure about that. In the WW fight, he was definitely going at high speed even for him, certainly, and he managed to punch her from the earth to the sun in like 2 seconds, which is crazy!And I think 'going all out' helps *most* people. If your adrenaline is pumping, if you're totally focused, you're going to cling to consciousness that much harder, punch that much harder, etc.. It's not necessarily just a superman thing.
I mean, how many times have we seen heralds in a team book get taken down by a foe, then turn it around for a second try and do much better even if it's still a contest of power?