DoS Rematch

Originally posted by Delta1938
No, you don't know comic Superman. It's been pointed-out that his mind effects his powers. That's why Mongul II was training Superman, to overcome the mental blocks. You can see examples from the first Imperiex Probe fight before OWAW and through-out, including the fight where Superman faces tons of Probes and the narration states he's unleashed. UP, UP, AND AWAY also showed Superman's powers boosting due to his mind. You're making arguments to try and divert from the actual point.

Originally posted by -Pr-
At least we now get to the root of the issue.

Originally posted by JBL
I used Hulk because its a known fact that he has dynamic strength and even though it was in a crossover, the two have faced each other and only one was noted as having dynamic strength.

Which has absolutely no bearing on this discussion, so why bring it up?

I get it, it's fine. I'm not going to try to force anyone to like, or root for Superman. That would be silly.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Which has absolutely no bearing on this discussion, so why bring it up?

I get it, it's fine. I'm not going to try to force anyone to like, or root for Superman. That would be silly.

He's special and different to them.

Originally posted by JBL
OK, answer this... How many others are their that came from the same place that superman came from and gets their powers from the yellow sun? Do they have dynamic strength or is superman special and different than them?

You're seriously asking me if Superman is different from other Kryptonians?

The same Superman that has been a genetic freak (heh) and descended from a Kryptonian deity, and you're asking me if he's at all different from other Kryptonians? Really? The same Superman that is regularly shown to pretty-much embarrass other Kryptonians? Really?

Even if you don't subscribe to /didn't know all that, Supes has been on earth under a yellow sun the longest....

Heh, its been stated clearly that superman is the peak kryptonian, he's the captain america of that species.

But that's not a proof too I guess.

Not really much different from say Thor hitting something saying he is going all out, but still being able to strike with more force despite previously claiming he is giving it everything. Doesn't mean he has dynamic strength, neither does Superman, the instances of them showing true dynamic strength are few and far between.

Basically they hold back a lot is really what it boils down to.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Not really much different from say Thor hitting something saying he is going all out, but still being able to strike with more force despite previously claiming he is giving it everything. Doesn't mean he has dynamic strength, neither does Superman, the instances of them showing true dynamic strength are few and far between.

Basically they hold back a lot is really what it boils down to.

Now on the other hand you have power draining characters that can and have increased their stats such as Creel.

On another, you have RARE increases such as struck by some sort of power increasing attack or Nature itself. Ironman.

Further than that you have an induced trait ( warrior madness ). Thor. Again rare but it has been CLEARLY stated and seen.

Also, you have the unseen yet stated such as the more a character believes in himself, the stronger and more powerful he gets. Gladiator.

Then you have Hulk. Nothing needs to be addressed on him i hope.

ALL of the above have CLEARLY been stated or seen, you read it once and that's it.

OH wait, i forgot one, you also have rise to meet the challenge ( plot based ) feats which EVERY hero has. That is not Dynamic strength, that is the plot of the story, you see this in EVERY comic, by EVERY hero.

The only CLEAR thing about superman is a sundip. Does that make the above better than superman? NO, it does not, but if you can debate something this long, then somethings wrong with claims on superman right? Case in point, Hulk has dynamic strength, that would not make it past 1 post if someone denies that he does.

Originally posted by -Pr-
You're seriously asking me if Superman is different from other Kryptonians?

The same Superman that has been a genetic freak (heh) and descended from a Kryptonian deity, and you're asking me if he's at all different from other Kryptonians? Really? The same Superman that is regularly shown to pretty-much embarrass other Kryptonians? Really?

Originally posted by JBL
What equal from Krypton has he embarrassed with stats and not experience and plot?

So you're not going to answer my statement?

So it's only experience and plot when he does it... Right.

Abhi already posted one scan that illustrates why Superman is different.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
Not really much different from say Thor hitting something saying he is going all out, but still being able to strike with more force despite previously claiming he is giving it everything. Doesn't mean he has dynamic strength, neither does Superman, the instances of them showing true dynamic strength are few and far between.

Basically they hold back a lot is really what it boils down to.

It actually is different, though.

Originally posted by JBL
BINGO. You hit the nail on the head, just because superman can stop holding back, he does not go from being peers with the likes of CM to being above him. Plenty characters would all of a sudden be credited with having dynamic strength if they stopped holding back. When superman or any other ( SET ) character goes all out, they use their full abilities along with their full ( SET IN STONE ) strength, but they DO NOT change classes, they just use their full strength.

Now on the other hand you have power draining characters that can and have increased their stats such as Creel.

On another, you have RARE increases such as struck by some sort of power increasing attack or Nature itself. Ironman.

Further than that you have an induced trait ( warrior madness ). Thor. Again rare but it has been CLEARLY stated and seen.

Also, you have the unseen yet stated such as the more a character believes in himself, the stronger and more powerful he gets. Gladiator.

Then you have Hulk. Nothing needs to be addressed on him i hope.

ALL of the above have CLEARLY been stated or seen, you read it once and that's it.

OH wait, i forgot one, you also have rise to meet the challenge ( plot based ) feats which EVERY hero has. That is not Dynamic strength, that is the plot of the story, you see this in EVERY comic, by EVERY hero.

The only CLEAR thing about superman is a sundip. Does that make the above better than superman? NO, it does not, but if you can debate something this long, then somethings wrong with claims on superman right? Case in point, Hulk has dynamic strength, that would not make it past 1 post if someone denies that he does.

Do you honestly believe that, or are you just trolling?

Either way, I can't see this continuing.

Originally posted by JBL
Superman cannot regulate his powers by his state of mind as shown by the many times hes been mind controlled.

That's just dumb. Using that as proof contradicts numerous established examples of Superman's mind straight-up effecting his powers, including under the first two major Post-CRISIS Superman writers, John Byrne(this version's creator, who even stated he sees Superman's limits are whatever he believes they are; not that I'm arguing he's limitless if he thinks, but that proves a dynamic power when Byrne created him) and Marv Wolfman.

As here under both, Superman loses his powers simply due to amnesia, gradually regains them under Granny Goodness training him, but then regains his powers because Darkseid convinced him he draws power from Darkseid. Abhi already posted the same under his account, but I guess they need to be shown again.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Misc/Dynamic%20Nature%20Examples/Loses%20Powers%20Due%20To%20Amnesia

Originally posted by JBL
He can keep himself from killing or hurting weaker characters, but as shown in comics, he has went all out against many and even failed why doing so.

Batman straight-up stated Superman subconsciously regulates his powers.

A "tad" different than holding back.

Originally posted by JBL
The end of a comic and plot will fool many, you know those probes were not going to win, but to build up the excitement for the reader, the probes HAD to appear unbeatable to the HERO and then in the end, the HERO comes through, fan happy, books sell.

You got it so wrong. Superman's efforts were more heroic in the first two, and as time went on he was handling them more easily. But I'm getting a little ahead of myself. First I'll show you the whole reason Mongul II came to Earth, to train Superman to overcome limitations.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Misc/Dynamic%20Nature%20Examples/Mongul%20Training

Mongul insulting Superman holding back, telling him to give in to his rage, Superman saying he, "felt my powers surging," talking about he wasn't mentally prepared, denying Superman saying he can't do something, that he CHOOSES not to. All the narration from Lois about the path he's on is dangerous and comparing it to starting a fire by playing with matches, that Mongul is going to "make him more super," talking about Clark's concern about his powers, that before it was his limitations, now his concern is the opposite. How does that not all drive home that Superman's mental state is limiting his powers? If he only gets more powerful from extra solar energy, why did Mongul bother to train him? Why didn't he just tell Superman to go in the Sun before they fought Imperiex(at the time they didn't know the true Imperiex)? Why have a freaking issue and a half dedicated to the training if they weren't establishing Superman is limiting his own power?

ANYWAYS, on the Imperiex Probes and your--

Originally posted by JBL
The end of a comic and plot will fool many, you know those probes were not going to win, but to build up the excitement for the reader, the probes HAD to appear unbeatable to the HERO and then in the end, the HERO comes through, fan happy, books sell.

Like I said, Superman's first two Imperiex Probe fights were a lot more about the hero being the underdog and coming through. And they got easier as time went on. Here he only beats the Probe by destroying the Hallower, stopping the Imperiex Probe from actually achieving its goal. He couldn't really hurt it despite help from Mongul II.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Miscellaneous/Imperiex%20Probes/1-Vs%20Imperiex%20Probe%20and%20destroys%20Hollower

Here in his second fight, he actually does straight-up beat one instead of defeating its plan. By himself. But not easily.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Miscellaneous/Imperiex%20Probes/2-Vs%20Imperiex%20Probe

Then he casually broke the Probe's arm off and cauterized it before it could explode, when Aquaman and Wonder Woman(with an Amazonian ax) striking the same area together couldn't scratch it.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Miscellaneous/Imperiex%20Probes/3-Breaks_Probe

And then when he's owning Imperiex Probes so long he's lost track of time to the point it could be hours, or days. And even survives a partial blast from Imperiex Prime(yeah I know Darkseid saved Supes teleporting him away, but we still see Superman get hit with the blast).

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Superman%20VS--/Miscellaneous/Imperiex%20Probes/4-Vs%20Countless%20Probes-Survives%20Imperiex%20Prime

And in fact, pay particular attention to the narration of this page--

"It has become PRIMAL. It has become second nature."

"As his 'partner' is truly destruction PERSONIFIED, so he HE become. And from that transformation...SUCCESS. Far and away from the humanity he holds in such high measure, where the Probes seemed far more DEADLY, he has CUT LOOSE. Subsequently, the Probes have offered little resistance."

"So he plows AHEAD, confident in his powers. Confident in his mindset."

Yeah, so narration points-out his mindset, about it being "PRIMAL." That Doomsday is "destruction PERSONIFIED" and Superman has become the same. And stating that "transformation"(of his mindset) is what gives him "SUCCESS." And stating that the Imperiex Probes were tougher on Earth, and now with his mindset, the Imperiex Probes are easy to beat now that he's "CUT LOOSE." And it states he "--plows AHEAD, confident in his powers. Confident in his mindset."

So, if he only gets more powerful due to external amps, if he only can hold back to not hurt those weaker than him and doesn't actually reduce his power, why the **** did Mongul emphasize so much about Superman's holding himself back, to not quell his rage, why train him if all they needed to do was give him a Sun-Dip, why does he get easier and easier beating the Imperiex Probes, and when he's owning them left and right, it keeps talking so much his mindset, that the Probes are now easy for him to beat, that he's had to become "destruction PERSONIFIED" like Doomsday, that these are the keys to his success, that he's confident in his powers and MINDSET, if he only gets more powerful from an external am?

Oh, I'll answer that question. You're wrong.

Originally posted by JBL
KMC does not sell comics, KMC does not script the outcome, people debate here, so spiderman aint beating firelord on KMC. Batman aint dodging bullets here and Captain America aint taking hits from hulk here. Thats why you have the speed kill thing here for flash, superman, gladiator and the like. Oh sure, all three will get hit in the comics, even get beaten when they should not, but it makes good reading and long comics, but im tired, i will post scans soon to support my stand. goodnight.

This is all irrelevant babble that has nothing to do with the topic.

By the way, here's where his powers are dynamic in UP, UP AND AWAY.

Here, Superman is powerless, it's determined his Kryptonian physiology hasn't changed, but for whatever reason he's not absorbing solar energy. When chased by a couple villains hired to kill him, he gradually regains his powers, but not to a noticeable degree(enough to run fast enough to really surprise the metahuman hitmen, but not fast enough to noticeably be superhuman in the situation, and takes an energy blast, but thinks he must be mistaken because he's fine), right until he's about to get hit by a train.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Misc/Dynamic%20Nature%20Examples/UP-UP-AND_AWAY/1-ACTION%20COMICS%20838

Then various other examples of his powers increasing as needed.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Misc/Dynamic%20Nature%20Examples/UP-UP-AND_AWAY/2-SUPERMAN%20652

Honestly Delta, I think you're wasting your time.

DC could flat out say Superman gets stronger as he gets angrier/more emotional (and they have before), and people would still make excuses all because they don't like that big red cape.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Honestly Delta, I think you're wasting your time.

DC could flat out say Superman gets stronger as he gets angrier/more emotional (and they have before), and people would still make excuses all because they don't like that big red cape.

It's not a waste if others(who aren't biased Superman haters) can see it and see he's wrong. Plus, it'll be entertaining to see the straws he grasps.

Originally posted by JBL
What equal from Krypton has he embarrassed with stats and not experience and plot?

If you embarrass someone with stats, they are not your equal.

Originally posted by Delta1938
It's not a waste if others(who aren't biased Superman haters) can see it and see he's wrong. Plus, it'll be entertaining to see the straws he grasps.

Superman is strong but he doesn't have dynamic strength. I have straight up seen him fail to move/lift objects.

Originally posted by JBL
Answer this. We all know that superman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam and a lot others are considered equals by the writers. BUT, if superman, CM and Black Adam ALL stop holding back or get angry, does your implied dynamic strength place superman above Marvel, Adam and the others? He becomes stronger than the others who the writers themselves placed in the same strength class? They are equals until superman stops holding back right? So it can be said that superman is as strong as CM and BA in a calm state even if BA and CM are enraged, but if superman gets enraged, he gets much stronger than them no matter what the writers say or think? Well, with this new found knowledge, i change my mind.. Superman stops holding back and stomps DD. Thanks for clearing things up for me. 😉

Sarcasm doesn't make your lack of an argument any stronger.