Galan
t's also a vastly more advanced technique than those you mentioned--of course it's going to take a bit longer to conjure. Having said that, Palpatine was able to manifest a massive star fleet-encompassing Storm in the time it took him to utter a few sentences:
http://imgur.com/CuQD9g2
Given the technique, that is not slow in any sense.
A few sentences is time you don't normally get in a duel, is my point. It's a strategic technique, so to speak.
Originally posted by Q99Oh, ok. With that much I can agree.
A few sentences is time you don't normally get in a duel, is my point. It's a strategic technique, so to speak.
That being said, I do see Force Storms as a viable in-battle tactic, given: a.) the speed at which he can conjure them, b.) the speed at which they move, and c.) the extremely fine-tuned/precise degree of control he has over them. Don't get me wrong, it would certainly be a secondary or even tertiary tactic, as the more basic force techniques(such as TK and lightning) are usually his initial 'go-to' abilities.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66I made a thread a LONG time ago that was Krayt vs Luke, and everyone said that Luke would end up beating him through Sheer force ability, I even tried to argue for Krayt, but my arguments aren't exactly top notch when I DO try to prove a point.
How can we place Krayt on the level of Sidious/Luke based on his teamwork with Luke against Abeloth? Krayt played a major role in that fight because he possessed a rare ability in some force imbued spirit realm (an ability that not even Luke possessed, being a lightsider and all) that he's never shown to possess outside that realm, which was sticking his hands through Abeloth and draining her while Luke was wrestling with her. That won't help him here. He's not a spirit here, and neither is Maul.
Yea, I gotta go with Luke too in that one. Even with people who're arguably Luke's peers, he's the highest in the tier.
Now, if Krayt took over Cade's body as he was planning at one point, and thus gained Skywalker force potential in addition to all of his ability, I'd love to see that Krayt vs Luke!
I don't find Krayt's team work with Luke against Abeloth relevant to a thread like this because it wouldn't be a wrestling match, where one opponent holds down a beast while the other delivers blows that drains the beast of it's powers. Another reason is, that fight didn't portray Abeloth as powerful as she was said to be, otherwise she should have easily demolished both Krayt and Luke, being 12 times more powerful than Luke and all. Unless Krayt equal's 11 Lukes, which is outright laughable.
All I can say about that fight is, they both fought a creature that was stronger than them individually, and they overcame her together. One was wrestling her down, allowing the other to take shots at her which drained her of her powers. Krayt played a major role in that fight because he used a technique against her, one which drained her of her powers, thus weakening her, making it easier to defeat her. That does not mean he is a peer of Luke's or Palpatine's in combat. Hell, if fighting Abeloth alongside Krayt was Luke's only feat to go by, I wouldn't even consider him to be a peer of Sidious in combat, because as I said, that fight didn't portray Abeloth to be as powerful as she was stated to be.
But, assuming Abeloth was factually as powerful as once stated, then it's obviously not sheer power that allowed them to overcome her, but it's the way they went about fighting her, which included Krayt's technique of force-stab draining her (weakening her powers) while Luke wrestled with her. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that it didn't require two extremely powerful force users to overcome Abeloth, I'm just saying that their performance couldn't have been based on power alone, otherwise, as I said, it shouldn't have been a fight, Abeloth should have snuffed them out with incredible ease.
Krayt's blitzing of the IK was impressive, but Krayt was extremely exhausted right after, while Palpatine has done the same to three jedi high council members and still had enough energy to force Windu back and continue fighting. Yes, I know Krayt would not have been exhausted had it not been for those vong growths, but seriously, how are those knights in any way comparable to the jedi masters Palpatine blitzed? If they were then Krayt's fight with Celeste Morne should have gone much differently, considering he initially had help, and considering that Vader beat her pretty solidly while he was very early in his apprenticeship under Sidious.
As far as combat related powers (TK, lightning, etc), Palpatine has proven that he can easily subdue the likes of Maul and Savage (both of whom have comparable TK to Krayt) with TK alone despite their efforts to break free. His lightning was intense enough to scorch a giant sith worm to ash, powerful enough to knock Yoda unconscious with a single short blast, and strong enough to Blast Yoda's lightsaber right out of his hands despite Yoda's force enhanced strength. And None of those feats even include his feats after ROTS. What has Krayt done combat-wise to compare?
All I keep hearing is stuff like, "well Krayt was unmatched during his era." Sorry, but that doesn't suggest he is Palpatine's peer, that's just crazy assumption. Or, "well Krayt knew dark transfer, which requires lots of power and mastery." Well going by sheer raw power and mastery, the ability to create and control force storms beats dark transfer by miles as the DE endnotes basically implied that Palpatine's conjuring of force storms was a demonstration of raw power, stating that Palpatine was a nexus of dark energies that can swell and burst open the fabric of space, as Palpatine also called it his full potency, which seems to imply power. Bane and the brotherhood of darkness had to combine their powers in order to create a force storm of dark energy, and even it wasn't powerful enough to tear apart the fabric of space as Palpatine's did. It would also take an awful amount of force mastery to control such destructive power after it's created, which Palpatine had incredible control over them. And as far as Palpatine requiring the span of a short conversation to create one, that's not true. By the time the storm was shown on panel it had already nearly consumed multiple ships, which means it was created before it was shown to us. During the brief conversation, Palpatine also mentions to Luke "look what is happening to your pitiful moon," meaning the storm was already in process during said conversation. Not to mention that in the Book of Anger, Palpatine says he can summon them with a mere thought (Jedi vs Sith).
Krayt does not come close to being a peer of Palpatine's let alone Luke's. I would even be hesitant to say that he is Vader's equal in combat.
Originally posted by Sidious66
I don't find Krayt's team work with Luke against Abeloth relevant to a thread like this because it wouldn't be a wrestling match,
And nor was the whole fight a wrestling match. Moreover, it was very much an indication of force power.
If you want skill feats, he's got those elsewhere, but the Abeloth fight is a nice indicator of his output and the level he plays on.
Yes, I know Krayt would not have been exhausted had it not been for those vong growths, but seriously, how are those knights in any way comparable to the jedi masters Palpatine blitzed?
One, they're four of them. Two, 'Imperial Knight' as a rank has only been seen given to people of master level that we've seen (it's not like with Jedi where there's Jedi Knight < Jedi Master. The head of the IKs is still just an Imperial Knight), and one of them was a Fel (read: descended from the Solo line). Three, they had him completely surrounded. Four, he finished them even quicker than Sids did.
So sure, they weren't council members, but they had other factors in their side, and you're not going to find just about anyone, even the likes of Dooku, with a similar feat.
If they were then Krayt's fight with Celeste Morne should have gone much differently, considering he initially had help, and considering that Vader beat her pretty solidly while he was very early in his apprenticeship under Sidious.
And Vader fought a Morne who had *not* learned to draw on the Muur talisman, got knocked on his butt once during the fight (which Krayt never did), and retreated once she started using the talisman, and Krayt unlike Vader wanted her alive... and no, Krayt didn't 'initially' have help, he briefly had an ally step in for a moment partway through the fight then leave again, because Morne also had allies around.
All I keep hearing is stuff like, "well Krayt was unmatched during his era."
No, you've also heard numerous feats by him, and him meeting people of different eras, including ones who are also Palpatine's peers like Luke, as well as individual feats of his.
Sorry, but that doesn't suggest he is Palpatine's peer, that's just crazy assumption.
It'd be assumption to assume a random best-of-era is (though not exactly too crazy of one, one does not become top for nothing). It's... far less so when it's someone who's got a skill edge in at least some areas of the force, has great saber feats, has some other very high-end feats, and has paled around with Luke, and when his era is full of people who, in turn, have tons of feats, many of them quite impressive. Cade especially, he fights in dozens of battles through the series, is a Skywalker, and is incredible powerful in both the force and in saber.
It's sorta like you're taking the arguments in isolation, to an extent. "Well, this individual thing on it's own isn't enough... nor is this individual thing... or this individual thing...." If you don't consider, 'hey, combined, that's a lot of things,' you're missing the whole picture.
And you're also discounting feats like the IK thing or the Abeloth thing out of hand, even when there's plenty of reason to take them seriously.
And remember, I'm not saying they're the exact same level or anything. I'm saying they're peers, in the same sense that Windu, Yoda, and Palpatine are all peers, even with their variances in power.
Krayt does not come close to being a peer of Palpatine's let alone Luke's.
Caedus and Luke disagree, which really says all that needs to be said.
[list]
[*]Krayt's defeat of the Knights isn't remotely comparable to Sidious's massacre of Windu's posse
[*]Vader sought to use Morne as a weapon against the Emperor, he did not want to kill her
[*]Krayt being unmatched during his era doesn't translate to peerage with Sidious or Luke
[*]Sidious still has Krayt trumped in terms of feats and accolades
[/list]
At the end of the day, Palpatine is the better duelist, the more powerful Force user, the more accomplished and important figure.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its a remotely comparable feat. 😐
Not at all. We actually know and see that Kit Fisto is a highly skilled duelist. By contrast, the Knights have done absolutely nothing nor do they have any impressive accolades.
Sidious blitzed three of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order produced. Pray tell, how is blitzing three Knights of unknown quality comparable?
Originally posted by Q99
And Vader fought a Morne who had *not* learned to draw on the Muur talisman, got knocked on his butt once during the fight (which Krayt never did), and retreated once she started using the talisman, and Krayt unlike Vader wanted her alive... and no, Krayt didn't 'initially' have help, he briefly had an ally step in for a moment partway through the fight then leave again, because Morne also had allies around.
Uh, Vader initially wanted her alive. In fact, the only reason "knocked on his butt" was because he was initially just defending against here attacks while claiming he did not want to harm her. However, once he actually began to go on the offensive he utterly dominated Morne in their duel.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The double standards are hilarious.
What double standards?
On one hand we know that the Jedi Sidious blitzed were of high quality. However, the Imperial Knights that Krayt blitzed are of unknown quality. Why are we to assume they are the equals of some of the greatest Jedi the Order ever produced with absolutely no evidence?
I'm seeing double standards on both sides, actually. The idea that Kit Fisto, who is explicitly just above AoTC Obi, and his pair of statue like featless morons are the best jedi evah and no one outside of their era can ever ever compare is incredibly numb. Also, newer characters can be evaluated against a blanket statement made long ago without adequate proof.
I'm not saying these knights are superior, but the idea that the fools Sidious stabbed who barely showed any martial ability should be immune from common sense scrutiny is huge bias. That's just maintaining the status quo instead of using reason.