Originally posted by Q99Yet when someone else references a Force Storm in regard to Palpatine, I must assume they are referring exclusively to DE Palpatine, as that was the incarnation who actually used Force Storms on-panel.
But when discussing Palps in general, I generally assume original-recipe rather than the clone (and Clone is, I shall note, still *very* defeatable in personal combat, as Luke showed! A Force storm is a big production that takes time to build and he can *barely* control, besides from that he's much as RotJ Palps), and second, they're different areas of the force.
Very defeatable? Did it not require significant amounts of PIS for Luke to defeat DE Palps?
As for the Storms themselves...
a.) They really didn't take long at all for Palpatine to conjure. He manifested one in the space of a single page, in fact:
http://imgur.com/ZyATMmn
b.) Despite a few statements to the contrary, Palps certainly did appear to have a very fine-tuned degree of control over the Storms--as evident by him using a Storm to transport Luke from Coruscant to a holding cell near Byss:
http://imgur.com/lfjN7F0
http://imgur.com/es5NW0J
http://imgur.com/BBAmx1b
http://imgur.com/5US7KHt
http://imgur.com/D7EAllL
http://imgur.com/m8vQEKz
This map of the SW galaxy shows the [considerable] distance between the two worlds(outlined in red):
http://i.imgur.com/5R8KhVr.jpg
So yeah, can't agree with you there.
Originally posted by Galan007
Very defeatable? Did it not require significant amounts of PIS for Luke to defeat DE Palps?
Not really!
I mean, Luke cut his hand off in simple sabers. Then Palps started calling on a force storm, and he and Leia teams up to force-blast him, which killed him.
Personal combat, he was still high-tier-but-mortal, Luke progressed enough during DE to match him (in part from his teachings), it was only in force powers that Palpatine remained solidly above.
As for the Storms themselves...
a.) They really didn't take long at all for Palpatine to conjure. He manifested one in the space of a single page, in fact:
Lemme note how he is holding his own severed hand ^^
It was relatively quick, but it was something that still happened over the course of a conversation and opening some distance from him, I honestly do not know why Luke didn't cut him down (well, rather, I *do* know- the author was all about solving things with big force powers rather than sabers. He was the inventor of the super-nova sith power too. And I guess making Palpatine lose control took out the Eclipse too!).
b.) Despite a few statements to the contrary, Palps certainly did appear to have a very fine-tuned degree of control over the Storms--as evident by him using a Storm to transport Luke from Coruscant to a holding cell near Byss:
I should say, his control was relatively fine, but could be disrupted. Hitting him with light gave a narrative box on how it lost control and then it killed him.
PsmithHow is Krayt better at Dark Transfer than Cade?
Cade doesn't know self-resurrection.
Arguably Cade may be better at healing *others* once he learns light side transfer, but he doesn't have that.
SIDIOUS 66
I know he wanted to kill her and he played a major role in killing her by draining her and weakening her. Why did he need to get up close to her in order to do that if he could have drained her at a distance?
Because that wouldn't have prevented her from attacking back- when Luke alone was holding her, Abeloth was still attacking and blinded Luke in one eye.
If he didn't go for the stomach-stab, then his partner would've fallen and he'd be facing Abeloth solo. Both of them were needed to hold her down.
So I'll ask one last time, how will Krayt's fight with Abeloth as a spirit form help him here?
Why, exactly, do you think a general showing of high ability, in a location where everyone used known force powers and we don't have a reason to think powers work differently there, isn't relevant?
That seems to be one of the things- If Krayt does something, excuses are found to not count it. If certain other characters are, it's accepted without question.
What level is Krayt on? He certainly hasn't did anything in the comics to suggest that he is anywhere near the level of Sidious. Sorry, but being powerful in the force doesn't mean you can contend with Sidious in a saber duel. Sidious wrecked two powerful force users in sabers, both at the same time and individually (Maul, Savage), while he was toying around and not even trying to kill one of them.
Cade Skywalker wrecked two powerful force users in saber, Nihl and Talon, right before being beaten down by Darth Krayt who was holding back due to wanting him alive.
Darth Krayt also took down 4 masters at once in about a second.
And both of that before he got upgraded.
See, you don't seem to be willing to accept any feats in other eras as enough to prove oneself near Palpatine.
A'Sharad was a saber prodigy who, when young, beat Aurra Sing, who has in turn beaten Qui-Gon Jinn. He was that good when he was a Jedi, and he's more experienced in combat (massively so, by several times over), physically enhanced, and massively more powerful in the force (which does have an effect in sabers, as Anakin Skywalker will tell you!) since then.
And, as noted, it's not like Sidious was alone in his tier. Windu, Yoda, Plagueis, possibly Anakin and Dooku... simple training and experience gets quite a few people able to compete with Sidious.
If being "a solid B-tier Clone Wars Jedi when still a rookie, who then improves massively *and* has very high tier feats at his max," isn't enough to convince you, then I submit to you that your mind is simply made up as to the outcome and you won't accept any feats as a sign of being in the same tier.
Yeah, we do. If we compare their feats, Palpatine beats him by miles. If we go on accolades, Palpatine has him beat there pretty solidly too.
If we go by accolades, Caedus had a vision of Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and so on all dying by the Dark Man's hand. So, yea, he's pretty top-tier in that too.
If we compare their feats, Palpatine has superior saber feats... but not by much, and Krayt has better saber feats than people who've matched Palpatine or his peers.
And in force feats, Sidious has the advantage in some areas, Krayt in others.
Didn't say it didn't, but you guys keep harping on it's usefulness in healing (which has nothing to do with combat), and saying "well Sidious couldn't use this on his body, but Krayt could."
You're missing the point. It takes dark side power and skill.
It is a demonstration of skill, and it shows superior skill in that area to pull off.
Dark side skill is one of the things that makes a Sith powerful, so being able to do high-power high-difficulty things in the force that even Sidious or Plagueis could not do -consider how short a list of things Sidious could not do with the dark side is!- shows high-tier ability.
Krayt didn't kill Cade in the last issue. Cade was merely on the verge of death.
Krayt specifically killed Cade to make him experience death and rebirth as he himself had.
Krayt is not Mace, and it'd be kinda hard to use shatterpoint in the middle of combat when your opponent is overwhelming you.
But he has Mace's ability, and Shatterpoint is a constant-on ability that shows you the weaknesses of things.
As been mentioned, we have arguments against Sidious being so overwhelming to Krayt as well.
Let me point out that Krayt's saber feats outpace every saber fight Mace has been in other than beating Palpatine.
I know it doesn't. I just brought it up to kill all the noise about Krayt being able to heal himself. I find it more impressive that one can come back after having his body destroyed.
Essence transfer is easier, though. Darth Krayt knows it too, as does Andeddu, Exar Kun, and a bunch of others. Lemme note one of those, Andeddu, the original inventor of the ability, was killed by Darth Krayt's second in command, Darth Wyyrlok, in a duel of pure force ability, so one can know Essence transfer and lose completely to someone who in turn loses to Darth Krayt.
Essence transfer is a prerequisite of self-resurrection.
So while you find it impressive, keep in mind what it means that it is merely a step towards learning self-resurrection as Krayt has.
So my feeling was right about you, Q99. lol
Elaboration?
Cade doesn't know self-resurrection.
Arguably Cade may be better at healing *others* once he learns light side transfer, but he doesn't have that.
Originally posted by Q99As you noted, Luke's overall force prowess had increased immensely thanks to Palpatine's tutelage(ie. albeit briefly embracing the dark side)--and Leia's presence on the field gave him the will/clarity to break free of the darkness and combat Palps. The duo then utilized a haxxed/deus ex machina force ability to separate Palps from his power long enough for his Force Storm to engulf him. So yeah, plenty of PIS was involved.
Not really!I mean, Luke cut his hand off in simple sabers. Then Palps started calling on a force storm, and he and Leia teams up to force-blast him, which killed him.
Personal combat, he was still high-tier-but-mortal, Luke progressed enough during DE to match him (in part from his teachings), it was only in force powers that Palpatine remained solidly above.
The issue prior(before embracing the dark side), however, Luke was utterly thrashed by a freshly awakened Palpatine clone:
http://imgur.com/tzZbRqo
http://imgur.com/DfWPtgr
http://imgur.com/4lcX3rA
Goes to show you how much his power had increased by the final issue. Also, it's Luke ffs--at the end of the day he's going to win.
Originally posted by Q99So contrary to your previous statements, you concede that DE Palps could conjure Force Storms quickly(because he could), and that he did have excellent control over them(because he did)..?
Lemme note how he is holding his own severed hand ^^It was relatively quick, but it was something that still happened over the course of a conversation and opening some distance from him, I honestly do not know why Luke didn't cut him down (well, rather, I *do* know- the author was all about solving things with big force powers rather than sabers. He was the inventor of the super-nova sith power too. And I guess making Palpatine lose control took out the Eclipse too!).
I should say, his control was relatively fine, but could be disrupted. Hitting him with light gave a narrative box on how it lost control and then it killed him.
I'm fine with that. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007I could be misreading the scans but it looks to me like Luke just got transported to the ship and the ship brought them to byss. It even mentions it being a hyperspace ship that used to transport Jedi back in the day. Either way ur point of palps having pretty good control of the storms is still valid. But like I said I could be missing something, if so let me know. I'd rather figure out how something really went down than to prove my interpretation correct.
Yet when someone else references a Force Storm in regard to Palpatine, I must assume they are referring exclusively to DE Palpatine, as that was the incarnation who actually used Force Storms on-panel.Very defeatable? Did it not require significant amounts of PIS for Luke to defeat DE Palps?
As for the Storms themselves...
a.) They really didn't take long at all for Palpatine to conjure. He manifested one in the space of a single page, in fact:
http://imgur.com/ZyATMmnb.) Despite a few statements to the contrary, Palps certainly did appear to have a very fine-tuned degree of control over the Storms--as evident by him using a Storm to transport Luke from Coruscant to a holding cell near Byss:
http://imgur.com/lfjN7F0
http://imgur.com/es5NW0J
http://imgur.com/BBAmx1b
http://imgur.com/5US7KHt
http://imgur.com/D7EAllL
http://imgur.com/m8vQEKzThis map of the SW galaxy shows the [considerable] distance between the two worlds(outlined in red):
http://i.imgur.com/5R8KhVr.jpgSo yeah, can't agree with you there.
Originally posted by Raptor22No, you're right. I, myself, had forgotten that until I reread through the bio(which explains the event in better detail):
I could be misreading the scans but it looks to me like Luke just got transported to the ship and the ship brought them to byss. It even mentions it being a hyperspace ship that used to transport Jedi back in the day. Either way ur point of palps having pretty good control of the storms is still valid. But like I said I could be missing something, if so let me know. I'd rather figure out how something really went down than to prove my interpretation correct.
Aside from that, it's also worth mentioning that Palpatine had mastered Force Storms to such a degree that the Storm itself almost came off as sentient in the way is scoured the planet specifically for Luke:
http://i.imgur.com/5SKt1wz.jpg
Palpatine's control over Force Storms was, contrary to popular belief, very impressive.
Originally posted by Galan007
As you noted, Luke's overall force prowess had increased immensely thanks to Palpatine's tutelage(ie. albeit briefly embracing the dark side)--and Leia's presence on the field gave him the will/clarity to break free of the darkness and combat Palps. The duo then utilized a haxxed/deus ex machina force ability to separate Palps from his power long enough for his Force Storm to engulf him. So yeah, plenty of PIS was involved.
None of which changes that when they were clashing blades, it was simply Luke's skill that allowed him to dishand Palps.
And there still didn't seem to be anything stopping them from stabbing him rather than going for the summoning-light approach.
So contrary to your previous statements, you concede that DE Palps could conjure Force Storms quickly(because he could), and that he did have excellent control over them(because he did)..?
Yes and no.
Fast in an absolute scale? Sure. Slow compared to most other force techniques you'd use in battle though. Much slower than lightning or TK or so on, and even slower still than saber. I don't think it's very useful in battle because it still takes time when he's just standing there concentrating on it, and then he needs to bring it to his opponents.
And he has fine, but disruptible control. He can point it where he wants, but he is, as they say, riding the dragon. He's not playing with a lot of margin for error.
Originally posted by Q99Losing to Luke+Leia in a very special/PIS-ridden circumstance does not equate to any sort of low(and/or easily replicable) showing.
None of which changes that when they were clashing blades, it was simply Luke's skill that allowed him to dishand Palps.And there still didn't seem to be anything stopping them from stabbing him rather than going for the summoning-light approach.
Originally posted by Q99It's also a vastly more advanced technique than those you mentioned--of course it's going to take a bit longer to conjure. Having said that, Palpatine was able to manifest a massive star fleet-encompassing Storm in the time it took him to utter a few sentences:
Slow compared to most other force techniques you'd use in battle though. Much slower than lightning or TK or so on, and even slower still than saber.
Originally posted by Q99The Storms move very fast. The first Storm Palps conjured, for example, moved from the space outside Coruscant, to its surface, in the span of a single page:
I don't think it's very useful in battle because it still takes time when he's just standing there concentrating on it, and then he needs to bring it to his opponents.
Originally posted by Q99Disruptible control in the sense that 2 of the most powerful force-users in the mythos can hit him with a wave of pure light energy capable of momentarily separating him from his power? Sure. Aside from that, his control was as solid as it gets.
And he has fine, but disruptible control. He can point it where he wants, but he is, as they say, riding the dragon. He's not playing with a lot of margin for error.
Riding the dragon? Can't agree. As I mentioned above, his mastery over the Storm was incredible. He was in complete control of it at all times(to the point that it appeared sentient.) Please read:
...He didn't just blindly point it in a direction and hope the job got done.
And of course, this is secondary to the fact that he was able to control the Storm precisely enough to specifically pluck Luke off the planet and teleport him to a holding vessel.
I may as well reiterate the following, since we're on the subject... Luke flat-out tells us that he alone could not have overcome Palpatine:
Luke: "One Jedi cannot conqueror the dark side alone... I guess we've proved that. Together we were a Jedi fire that outshone his evil."
Leia: "Two are more powerful than one... Three are more powerful than two. I felt another join us, Luke... My third child [Anakin]. He's going to be a very great Jedi.":
http://imgur.com/Wxhzrga
ie. it took the cumulative force energy of three [very powerful] Jedi to separate Palpatine from his power, and subsequently remove his control over the Force Storm. This is certainly not a feat that any single Jedi would be capable of duplicating(as Luke explicitly stated.)
So yeah, that really cannot be misconstrued into a poor showing of any sort. If anything, it is a further testament to DE Palpatine's power.
I suppose you could interpret it that way... IF you completely ignore Leia's subsequent statement, as well as the event that specifically precedes said statements. 👆
If Luke alone could have done it... Luke alone would have done it. It is overtly clear that he couldn't have, however*enter Leia+her unborn child*. If you'd like to me believe that Luke could have done so all by his lonesome, then please do prove it. 🙂
