Itachi vs The Gokage

Originally posted by chasedown
Your agrument is based on speculation that someone may or may not be able to do something. Unless it is confirmed that itachi can cast more then one person under genjutsu the arguements strength is really weak. Itachi has had multiple chances throughout the series to cast genjutsu on more than one person at a time both in part 1 and part 2 yet weve never seen him do it. What hes shown us however is that he can cast it on one person and hes shown us that multiple times.

We dont even know if said jutsu requires hand seals or not or whether prep time is required if he uses sharingan to do it or not or any other factor that jutsus require. All of these things are something that cant be answered.

In the context its used "That many" can mean anywhere from zero and up. Lets say he can do it to more than one person whose to say that the number is only two at a time.

There is no concrete evidence that state ls itachi can cast genjutsu on more than one person. Arguments should never based on pure speculation.

Also its like waka said the 5 kage managed to avoid genjutsu from 25 madara im sure they could avoid madara

Wrong again. Your counter argument is based on speculation. You obviously don't understand how English works. Again, Itachi could fight while using genjutsu on someone else, it takes two people to break the genjutsu, Itachi can use it on three times the people because that clone was 30% of his abilities, and this is all from base finger genjutsu. Just like how Kakashi could use Kamui three times more because Kurama tripled his chakra.

Also it's like I said to Waka. Madara needed eye contact for genjutsu, as seen when he caught A in it. Itachi needs only to point in your general direction. You can control your eyes, to avoid eye contact, but you can't avoid him pointing at you, because you can't control his finger. You can only attack him before it activates, which is not possible to any of the kage, including A.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
How so? A can move faster than the Sharingan can track him, Mei's hidden mist can prevent Itachi from gaining a visual of the Kages, and Gaara has flight and a 3rd eye he can use to remove the risk of direct eye contact. He can also block Amateratsu.

Still don't understand what you're trying to say. Also according to that scan Sakura was the one to smack Naruto out of the genjutsu, in the previous chapter he was still under it.

Oh and even if that were the case, its not BTW, you do realize that by Naruto already being out the genjutsu implies that he got out of it on his own: which is low-balling Itachi's genjutsu even further.

You made a statement earlier that only an Uchiha could beat Itachi: which the series itself proves incorrect. My Kabuto example shows that Itachi can be bested by someone who isn't an Uchiha.

How so? Sasuke used his sharingan to counter A's speed many times in the fight, and Itachi casually blitzed a person that solo'ed two Raikage level speedsters. 👆 Mei can't use the hand signs before Itachi points at her. 👆 Gaara can't fly far enough to escape the totsuka blade before he gets skewered. 👆 He can't block Amaterasu while he's under genjutsu. 👆

The scan I showed with Sakura was after they already broke him out of it, genius. He was still shaken from the jutsu, and Sakura slapped him to get him to concentrate. Learn to read.

So what you're saying is that Itachi's genjutsu requires two people to remove it AND someone to slap the person being affected? Alright. How stupid can you be? Your blatant attempt at low-balling Itachi has again proven your lack of reasoning. Sakura and Chiyo broke Naruto out of it, proven by him muttering "I-I", and Sakura slapped him to make him regain focus, as he was clearly traumatized by the genjutsu. Proving, once again, that it takes at least two people to remove Itachi's genjutsu from one person. Do you even know how to read?

Obviously there are certain exceptions to that statement. Hashirama could beat Itachi, as well as Jiraiya and many other uber-powerful hax characters, like Jyuubi jinchuriki's, the Sage of six paths, current Naruto, etc. Normally though, only a Senju or Uchiha could have a chance of beating Itachi.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Wrong again. Your counter argument is based on speculation. You obviously don't understand how English works. Again, Itachi could fight while using genjutsu on someone else, it takes two people to break the genjutsu, Itachi can use it on three times the people because that clone was 30% of his abilities, and this is all from base finger genjutsu. Just like how Kakashi could use Kamui three times more because Kurama tripled his chakra.

Also it's like I said to Waka. Madara needed eye contact for genjutsu, as seen when he caught A in it. Itachi needs only to point in your general direction. You can control your eyes, to avoid eye contact, but you can't avoid him pointing at you, because you can't control his finger. You can only attack him before it activates, which is not possible to any of the kage, including A.

There is no exact number of how many people itachi can put under genjutsu.

Just because ge was using 30% percent of his power doenst mean he can put more people under genjutsu with one jutsu. Yes maybe he could do the finger jutsu more times one after the other tho.

You dont even know what the name of the jutsu itachi can "supposedly" use that traps everybody at once. Nor do you know how the jutsu is performed. Nor do you know whether it requires sharingan or regular hand seal. Nor the amount of chakra it takes to perform such a jutsu. There is zero concrete information that can lead to the definite comformation that he can do it other than a guy saying "that many" which can range anywhere from 0 and up.

The fact of the matter is weve only seen itachi cast genjutsu on one person at a time. If he could cast it on a group of people why didnt he do it the countless chances hes had to do it throughout the series spanning from part 1 all the way to part 2.

Originally posted by chasedown
There is no exact number of how many people itachi can put under genjutsu.

Just because ge was using 30% percent of his power doenst mean he can put more people under genjutsu with one jutsu. Yes maybe he could do the finger jutsu more times one after the other tho.

You dont even know what the name of the jutsu itachi can "supposedly" use that traps everybody at once. Nor do you know how the jutsu is performed. Nor do you know whether it requires sharingan or regular hand seal. Nor the amount of chakra it takes to perform such a jutsu. There is zero concrete information that can lead to the definite comformation that he can do it other than a guy saying "that many" which can range anywhere from 0 and up.

The fact of the matter is weve only seen itachi cast genjutsu on one person at a time. If he could cast it on a group of people why didnt he do it the countless chances hes had to do it throughout the series spanning from part 1 all the way to part 2.

What don't you get about "three times one"?

No, that's exactly what it means. If he would need to point at them all individually, so be it. He still just needs to wave his finger at all of them, and he's achieved the same results.

Wrong AGAIN. He said "that many", not "he can only use it on one person at a time", meaning that he can AT THE LEAST, use it on two people at once. Again though, that would be retarded to assume, as he said "that many", and not "only a few". Again, it's quite safe to assume he can at least use it one half of them, or around a thousand. Five kage from short range is pretty simple for someone that can do that. There was no mention of any jutsu, meaning that we can't conjure up some new jutsu for him that takes time to use, so we again have to assume that it's a jutsu he already has demonstrated, or at least mentioned. Can he see people from countries away? No, but he can point in their direction, meaning he presumably can use his base, finger genjutsu to trap around a thousand people from a country away, probably even more. You can't disprove this without assuming he has another jutsu that has never even been mentioned, so don't even try. You're embarrassing yourself.

So Goku can't planet+ bust because he never has? Good ta' know. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What don't you get about "three times one"?

No, that's exactly what it means. If he would need to point at them all individually, so be it. He still just needs to wave his finger at all of them, and he's achieved the same results.

Wrong [B]AGAIN. He said "that many", not "he can only use it on one person at a time", meaning that he can AT THE LEAST, use it on two people at once. Again though, that would be retarded to assume, as he said "that many", and not "only a few". Again, it's quite safe to assume he can at least use it one half of them, or around a thousand. Five kage from short range is pretty simple for someone that can do that. There was no mention of any jutsu, meaning that we can't conjure up some new jutsu for him that takes time to use, so we again have to assume that it's a jutsu he already has demonstrated, or at least mentioned. Can he see people from countries away? No, but he can point in their direction, meaning he presumably can use his base, finger genjutsu to trap around a thousand people from a country away, probably even more. You can't disprove this without assuming he has another jutsu that has never even been mentioned, so don't even try. You're embarrassing yourself.

So Goku can't planet+ bust because he never has? Good ta' know. 👆 [/B]

Wrong goku can planet bust because people weaker than him have done so.

The point is that statement is vague and can mean an assortment of numbers.

So you think that itachi with one finger can cast genjutsu on over 100 people? With a jutsu as powerful as that how come he never used? Do you realize how increadibly useful that would be. With something like that itachi would have never had to kill his clan. Which is something that plauge him on the inside for years.

Weve never seen him use such a jutsu therefore he cant do it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
How so? Sasuke used his sharingan to counter A's speed many times in the fight, and Itachi casually blitzed a person that solo'ed two Raikage level speedsters. 👆 Mei can't use the hand signs before Itachi points at her. 👆 Gaara can't fly far enough to escape the totsuka blade before he gets skewered. 👆 He can't block Amaterasu while he's under genjutsu. 👆

The scan I showed with Sakura was after they already broke him out of it, genius. He was still shaken from the jutsu, and Sakura slapped him to get him to concentrate. Learn to read.

So what you're saying is that Itachi's genjutsu requires two people to remove it AND someone to slap the person being affected? Alright. How stupid can you be? Your blatant attempt at low-balling Itachi has again proven your lack of reasoning. Sakura and Chiyo broke Naruto out of it, proven by him muttering "I-I", and Sakura slapped him to make him regain focus, as he was clearly traumatized by the genjutsu. Proving, once again, that it takes at least two people to remove Itachi's genjutsu from one person. Do you even know how to read?

Obviously there are certain exceptions to that statement. Hashirama could beat Itachi, as well as Jiraiya and many other uber-powerful hax characters, like Jyuubi jinchuriki's, the Sage of six paths, current Naruto, etc. Normally though, only a Senju or Uchiha could have a chance of beating Itachi.

Counter? Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't keep up with A using v2 of his Raiton armor. if it could he would've been able to hit him with Amateratsu. Hidden Mist doesn't require that many hand signs and if the worst happens there's another Kage to break her out of it. He can't cast genjustu and use Susanoo simultaneously. Plus Gaara could pull Itachi out of his Susanoo.
Also if he's focused on one Kage there are four others there to attack him. Remember this isn't a gauntlet.

BTW the finger genjustsu still requires you look at it in order which is how Naruto got caught in the first place:

Sakura broke him out of it with the smack. Chiyo had nothing to do with it. Furthermore Naruto was the only one caught in the genjustu out of the people Itachi could've cast it on. Also Onoki breaking A out of genjustu or even a lighter example of Hachibi breaking B out of one of Itachi's genjutsu proves that it only takes one outside force to do it. Also why are you using Naruto as the basis for you're argument when its covered in the manga that genjustu was not his strong suit.

Kabuto is neither of those things(Senju/Uchiha) and the series itself gave doubt as to the whole Jiraiya thing.

Originally posted by chasedown
Wrong goku can planet bust because people weaker than him have done so.

The point is that statement is vague and can mean an assortment of numbers.

So you think that itachi with one finger can cast genjutsu on over 100 people? With a jutsu as powerful as that how come he never used? Do you realize how increadibly useful that would be. With something like that itachi would have never had to kill his clan. Which is something that plauge him on the inside for years.

Weve never seen him use such a jutsu therefore he cant do it.

Think about what you're saying then. You're saying his jutsu can't be used to that extent, because we've never seen him do it, even though it's been stated that he could.

Same with Goku.

How would using genjutsu on a hundred people be enough to end a war between all the nations? He had to kill his clan because it would have made a domino effect and destroyed the entire ninja world potentially. He figured it was better to bear the burden himself than to force others to suffer, predominately Sasuke.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Think about what you're saying then. You're saying his jutsu can't be used to that extent, because we've never seen him do it, even though it's been stated that he could.

Same with Goku.

How would using genjutsu on a hundred people be enough to end a war between all the nations? He had to kill his clan because it would have made a domino effect and destroyed the entire ninja world potentially. He figured it was better to bear the burden himself than to force others to suffer, predominately Sasuke.

haha the thing is it hasnt been stated he could. "that many" is a very indefinite and imprecise statement.....just putting my two cents in.

all though i do disagree with chasedown and think that itachi can cast genjutsu on multiple people something of that magnitude has to be done with the sharingan not just one finger because we have seen instances of the sharingan doing that.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Counter? Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't keep up with A using v2 of his Raiton armor. if it could he would've been able to hit him with Amateratsu. Hidden Mist doesn't require that many hand signs and if the worst happens there's another Kage to break her out of it. He can't cast genjustu and use Susanoo simultaneously. Plus Gaara could pull Itachi out of his Susanoo.
Also if he's focused on one Kage there are four others there to attack him. Remember this isn't a gauntlet.

BTW the finger genjustsu still requires you look at it in order which is how Naruto got caught in the first place:

Sakura broke him out of it with the smack. Chiyo had nothing to do with it. Furthermore Naruto was the only one caught in the genjustu out of the people Itachi could've cast it on. Also Onoki breaking A out of genjustu or even a lighter example of Hachibi breaking B out of one of Itachi's genjutsu proves that it only takes one outside force to do it. Also why are you using Naruto as the basis for you're argument when its covered in the manga that genjustu was not his strong suit.

Kabuto is neither of those things(Senju/Uchiha) and the series itself gave doubt as to the whole Jiraiya thing.

Sasuke had enough insight with his sharingan to counter Raikage's movements many times. Plus, this is about Itachi, not Sasuke. Itachi, who blitzed Nagato, who solo'ed two Raikage level speedsters. Again, it takes two to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. Prove that he can't. He used Amaterasu while using Susano'o in the Kabuto fight, plus the whole Totsuka blade genjutsu thing. 👆

Yet he still pre-occupies two kage to release the one in genjutsu, while he fights two by himself, which would be casually dealt with by a simple Amaterasu shotgun, or totsuka stab, leaving one defenseless and under genjutsu, while two try to fight him off, before he kills the one under genjutsu, and then puts the remaining two in genjutsu, and slits their throats. That simple.

Btw, it never once said anything about looking at his finger, so stop baselessly assuming things.

You clearly haven't read the manga before, or paid attention to the scans I posted.

Sakura and Chiyo clearly break him out of it, and Kakashi jumps back away from Itachi.

Kakashi lands in a skid from his jump, and Naruto is still traumatized and unfocused by Itachi's genjutsu.

Sakura slaps him to make him concentrate.

Stop making shit up.

Furthermore, it was a 30% clone, and Itachi wanted nothing more than to slow them down a bit. 👆

Madara's 4% clone is better at genjutsu than Itachi? No, so that "feat" means nothing, as even full power Madara is still not as good at Genjutsu as Itachi, going by statements alone. When did Bee fight Itachi? He didn't, so stop comparing him to the weaker, inexperienced, newly awakened Mangekyo Sasuke. 👆

Naruto was still a jinchuriki, with hilariously more chakra than A. Even A was incapacitated by a much weaker(at genjutsu) Madara's genjutsu.

Which is exactly why Kabuto lost, and Itachi was scared of Jiraiya(or why Pain, the strongest Akatsuki besides Tobi needed to sneak up on Jiraiya to beat him). 👆

Originally posted by yungz22
haha the thing is it hasnt been stated he could. "that many" is a very indefinite and imprecise statement.....just putting my two cents in.

all though i do disagree with chasedown and think that itachi can cast genjutsu on multiple people something of that magnitude has to be done with the sharingan not just one finger because we have seen instances of the sharingan doing that.

But it still scales linearly to the statement itself. If he meant that Itachi could only use it on a few people, Ao would have completely disregarded Shikaku and said Itachi could use it on only a few or one people/person. However, he said "not that many people", insinuating that he could come close to that, or that he could control nearly the entire block of 2,500 fighters with genjutsu. It is very vague, but low-balling it to one person makes you look stupid, don't you agree? It's just simple English, lol.

Well from that far away though, he can't see anyone, but he can point in their direction. We can't just give him a new genjutsu, but we can elaborate from the statement on the one closest to the description of one he has already.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
But it still scales linearly to the statement itself. If he meant that Itachi could only use it on a few people, Ao would have completely disregarded Shikaku and said Itachi could use it on only a few or one people/person. However, he said "not that many people", insinuating that he could come close to that, or that he could control nearly the entire block of 2,500 fighters with genjutsu. It is very vague, but low-balling it to one person makes you look stupid, don't you agree? It's just simple English, lol.

Well from that far away though, he can't see anyone, but he can point in their direction. We can't just give him a new genjutsu, but we can elaborate from the statement on the one closest to the description of one he has already.

yea i know what your saying i totally get you but no one conclusion can be made from that number. Its possible it could be one and its possible the number could be in the hundreds. the fact of the matter is we dont know. " that many" is non conclusive.

i dont think distance really even matters if you look into the eyes of a sharingan user its pretty much over you can be cast under it.

weve seen sharingan put more than one person under genjutsu at once therefore we have to assume that is the means of Itachi casting genjutsu when it comes casting it on more than one person. his finger jutsu has never done that so we cant just give his finger genjustu new abilities.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Sasuke had enough insight with his sharingan to counter Raikage's movements many times. Plus, this is about Itachi, not Sasuke. Itachi, who blitzed Nagato, who solo'ed two Raikage level speedsters. Again, it takes two to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. Prove that he can't. He used Amaterasu while using Susano'o in the Kabuto fight, plus the whole Totsuka blade genjutsu thing. 👆

Yet he still pre-occupies two kage to release the one in genjutsu, while he fights two by himself, which would be casually dealt with by a simple Amaterasu shotgun, or totsuka stab, leaving one defenseless and under genjutsu, while two try to fight him off, before he kills the one under genjutsu, and then puts the remaining two in genjutsu, and slits their throats. That simple.

Btw, it never once said anything about looking at his finger, so stop baselessly assuming things.

You clearly haven't read the manga before, or paid attention to the scans I posted.

Sakura and Chiyo clearly break him out of it, and Kakashi jumps back away from Itachi.

Kakashi lands in a skid from his jump, and Naruto is still traumatized and unfocused by Itachi's genjutsu.

Sakura slaps him to make him concentrate.

Stop making shit up.

Furthermore, it was a 30% clone, and Itachi wanted nothing more than to slow them down a bit. 👆

Madara's 4% clone is better at genjutsu than Itachi? No, so that "feat" means nothing, as even full power Madara is still not as good at Genjutsu as Itachi, going by statements alone. When did Bee fight Itachi? He didn't, so stop comparing him to the weaker, inexperienced, newly awakened Mangekyo Sasuke. 👆

Naruto was still a jinchuriki, with hilariously more chakra than A. Even A was incapacitated by a much weaker(at genjutsu) Madara's genjutsu.

Which is exactly why Kabuto lost, and Itachi was scared of Jiraiya(or why Pain, the strongest Akatsuki besides Tobi needed to sneak up on Jiraiya to beat him). 👆

You're the one who brought Sasuke up, also Sasuke couldn't react to A once he used v2 of his Raiton armor. Nagato's not that fast or at least not as fast as A. It only took one other being to break out of a sharingan genjustu:

Itachi doesn't have Enton therefore can't do the Amateratsu shotgun. The Tosuka blade is the biggest threat to the Kage's however Tsunade is physically strong enough to break Susanoo along with Gaara being able to pull Itachi out of it.

That's how Itachi gets people under the genjustu. You don't go into one just by Itachi pointing at you otherwise all four people in the group would've been under the genjustu. Its almost no different with how the Sharingan works.

Naruto was already out of it. He might have still been shaken up but the genjustu itself was over. Also why are you insisting on using an example where the person in question isn't good at genjutsu.

Unfocused doesn't mean he's still under it. You can still be out of focus when the genjutsu ends which is evident in the series.

Speaking of making things up, where did that 4% number come from? Bee fought Itachi alongside Naruto when they duo encountered him along with an Edo Nagato. No sure what that has to do with this though.

Naruto at that point didn't have mastery over Kurama. Chakra quantity =/= chakra control.

Kabuto lost to an ass-pull not Itachi: plus Itachi had help so it isn't entirely his victory to begin with. Evidence in Part 2 suggest otherwise.

didn't really read past half the 1st page. itachi would have trouble with raikage if we take each kage's individual performance rather than just their collective performance cause i mean, ninja law and they went up against madara.

seriously, raikage would be a problem especially with oonoki on his back and gaara pulling itachi out of susano'o...hell, gaara can use that massive pyramid thing that trapped madara and itachi can't escape since he doesn't have a final susano'o

Originally posted by yungz22
yea i know what your saying i totally get you but no one conclusion can be made from that number. Its possible it could be one and its possible the number could be in the hundreds. the fact of the matter is we dont know. " that many" is non conclusive.

i dont think distance really even matters if you look into the eyes of a sharingan user its pretty much over you can be cast under it.

weve seen sharingan put more than one person under genjutsu at once therefore we have to assume that is the means of Itachi casting genjutsu when it comes casting it on more than one person. his finger jutsu has never done that so we cant just give his finger genjustu new abilities.

The reason it can't be just one person, or less than a few hundred, is because Ao implied that he could use it on almost 2,500 people. That alone is conclusive enough to make a low-ball 75% estimate, which says Itachi can control roughly 1,875 people with one genjutsu. And that's with severe low-balling.

It does, if you can't even see that far. No one can see past the curvature of the earth, meaning that Itachi could have ONLY used the finger genjutsu to control them from a continent away.

When? I don't ever recall a sharingan being demonstrated to control more than one person with genjutsu. It's only ever been implied that Itachi could do so with his finger genjutsu.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
You're the one who brought Sasuke up, also Sasuke couldn't react to A once he used v2 of his Raiton armor. Nagato's not that fast or at least not as fast as A. It only took one other being to break out of a sharingan genjustu:

Itachi doesn't have Enton therefore can't do the Amateratsu shotgun. The Tosuka blade is the biggest threat to the Kage's however Tsunade is physically strong enough to break Susanoo along with Gaara being able to pull Itachi out of it.

That's how Itachi gets people under the genjustu. You don't go into one just by Itachi pointing at you otherwise all four people in the group would've been under the genjustu. Its almost no different with how the Sharingan works.

Naruto was already out of it. He might have still been shaken up but the genjustu itself was over. Also why are you insisting on using an example where the person in question isn't good at genjutsu.

Unfocused doesn't mean he's still under it. You can still be out of focus when the genjutsu ends which is evident in the series.

Speaking of making things up, where did that 4% number come from? Bee fought Itachi alongside Naruto when they duo encountered him along with an Edo Nagato. No sure what that has to do with this though.

Naruto at that point didn't have mastery over Kurama. Chakra quantity =/= chakra control.

Kabuto lost to an ass-pull not Itachi: plus Itachi had help so it isn't entirely his victory to begin with. Evidence in Part 2 suggest otherwise.

1. I brought up Sasuke because he's incomparably weaker than Itachi. It was stated many times throughout the series that Itachi only lost because he didn't want to win.

So why did Nagato solo KCM Naruto and Killer Bee, both of whom are equal to or greater than Raikage in speed? Itachi casually batted Nagato aside with an attack he couldn't even REACT to. Naruto and Killer Bee are nothing compared to Itachi at that point.

2. You're forgetting that Itachi invented the Amaterasu shotgun.

It might be a little different from Sasuke's, but even Itachi on his deathbed can generate ridiculously more Amaterasu that a healthy Sasuke with EMS.

Tsunade's not strong enough to break the Yata mirror. Plus, none of them is fast enough to dodge it's stab. Gaara can only do that if his teammates can make an opening to prevent him from instantly killing Gaara, which they can't due to Itachi's superior speed, intelligence, sharingan and deadly hax.

3. You're, again, neglecting EVERYTHING I've said. ITACHI DIDN'T WANT TO KILL ANYONE, first off. HE WANTED TO SLOW THEM DOWN. HE WAS A 30% CLONE. God, you're dense.

4. Why are you repeating my point? Exactly like I said, it takes two people to break one person out of base finger genjutsu. 👆

Naruto isn't good at USING genjutsu, but he's just fine at releasing it. His chakra capacity alone makes him severely better at it than 99% of people in the series.

You're repeating me again. I'll just take that a sign of your concession.

5. Since you obviously don't know simple, basic mathematics, let me explain this to you. To use shadow clones, you split up your chakra between them. Madara made 25 clones, meaning his chakra was split up into 25 parts. How much is 100 divided by 25? 4, meaning each clone was 4% as powerful as Madara. Itachi is better at genjutsu than the real Madara going by statements alone, meaning he was OVER 25 times more powerful with genjutsu than that clone, meaning Raikage would have been eaten by his base finger genjutsu.

Bee held off an Itachi that was toying with him. Bee even had to use the Hachibi just to keep up, and Itachi hadn't even used any MS techniques. Why did you think that Itachi could shit on someone who solo'ed 2nd form hachibi release Bee and KCM Naruto, when he DID use his MS techniques?

6. Naruto at that point still had mastery over around three chakra tails. Don't forget that he has been able to pull kage level chakra from Kurama since he first started training with Jiraiya in part 1. 👆

7. Kabuto would have been beaten by plenty of characters other than Itachi. Would they have been able to stop edo tensei though? No, meaning that Itachi was the only person who was capable of actually beating him.

Kabuto lost to an ass-pul from Itachi. That means he still lost to Itachi, retard. Are you saying that the Kage didn't lose to Madara, because he pulled perfect Susano'o out of his pussy?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
didn't really read past half the 1st page. itachi would have trouble with raikage if we take each kage's individual performance rather than just their collective performance cause i mean, ninja law and they went up against madara.

seriously, raikage would be a problem especially with oonoki on his back and gaara pulling itachi out of susano'o...hell, gaara can use that massive pyramid thing that trapped madara and itachi can't escape since he doesn't have a final susano'o

Yes, theoretically, if Itachi didn't have genjutsu mastery or hax to the point he does, the Kage could beat him.

However, they can do nothing to his superior speed, sharingan, multi-person genjutsu cast from pointing, Amaterasu that can cover mountain sized areas in an instant, Susano'o with Yata mirror an Totsuka blade, and RIDICULOUS sharingan abilities like Izanagi and Izanami. The fight would begin, and three or more Kage would be under genjutsu, and the other two would fall to Amaterasu and Totsuka blade. Bam, the fights over, and they can do nothing to stop it.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
The reason it can't be just one person, or less than a few hundred, is because Ao implied that he could use it on almost 2,500 people. That alone is conclusive enough to make a low-ball 75% estimate, which says Itachi can control roughly 1,875 people with one genjutsu. And that's with severe low-balling.

It does, if you can't even see that far. No one can see past the curvature of the earth, meaning that Itachi could have ONLY used the finger genjutsu to control them from a continent away.

When? I don't ever recall a sharingan being demonstrated to control more than one person with genjutsu. It's only ever been implied that Itachi could do so with his finger genjutsu.

How is "that many" conclusive and automatically mean almost 2500 people? we still dont know the number of people he can do it to. And again hes had many chances to do what your saying and hasnt done so therefore its inconclusive. Itachi has only put genjutsu on one person at a time eberytime weve seen him against multiple opponents. One is the only number we know conclusively.

Thats just like someone concluding that lebron james has 40000 career points. After someone says he has 50,000 points and another person says theres no way he has "that many"........ The person who concludes 40,000 points from the saying "that many" is just plain wrong. The point is "that many" is so vague and doesnt give us an actual answer.

And another thing itachi has stated before that the use of two or more ms techniques in one day greatly fatigues him and he would be out of chakra.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. I brought up Sasuke because he's incomparably weaker than Itachi. It was stated many times throughout the series that Itachi only lost because he didn't want to win.

So why did Nagato solo KCM Naruto and Killer Bee, both of whom are equal to or greater than Raikage in speed? Itachi casually batted Nagato aside with an attack he couldn't even REACT to. Naruto and Killer Bee are nothing compared to Itachi at that point.

2. You're forgetting that Itachi invented the Amaterasu shotgun.

It might be a little different from Sasuke's, but even Itachi on his deathbed can generate ridiculously more Amaterasu that a healthy Sasuke with EMS.

Tsunade's not strong enough to break the Yata mirror. Plus, none of them is fast enough to dodge it's stab. Gaara can only do that if his teammates can make an opening to prevent him from instantly killing Gaara, which they can't due to Itachi's superior speed, intelligence, sharingan and deadly hax.

3. You're, again, neglecting EVERYTHING I've said. ITACHI DIDN'T WANT TO KILL ANYONE, first off. HE WANTED TO SLOW THEM DOWN. HE WAS A 30% CLONE. God, you're dense.

4. Why are you repeating my point? Exactly like I said, it takes two people to break one person out of base finger genjutsu. 👆

Naruto isn't good at USING genjutsu, but he's just fine at releasing it. His chakra capacity alone makes him severely better at it than 99% of people in the series.

You're repeating me again. I'll just take that a sign of your concession.

5. Since you obviously don't know simple, basic mathematics, let me explain this to you. To use shadow clones, you split up your chakra between them. Madara made 25 clones, meaning his chakra was split up into 25 parts. How much is 100 divided by 25? 4, meaning each clone was 4% as powerful as Madara. Itachi is better at genjutsu than the real Madara going by statements alone, meaning he was OVER 25 times more powerful with genjutsu than that clone, meaning Raikage would have been eaten by his base finger genjutsu.

Bee held off an Itachi that was toying with him. Bee even had to use the Hachibi just to keep up, and Itachi hadn't even used any MS techniques. Why did you think that Itachi could shit on someone who solo'ed 2nd form hachibi release Bee and KCM Naruto, when he DID use his MS techniques?

6. Naruto at that point still had mastery over around three chakra tails. Don't forget that he has been able to pull kage level chakra from Kurama since he first started training with Jiraiya in part 1. 👆

7. Kabuto would have been beaten by plenty of characters other than Itachi. Would they have been able to stop edo tensei though? No, meaning that Itachi was the only person who was capable of actually beating him.

Kabuto lost to an ass-pul from Itachi. That means he still lost to Itachi, retard. Are you saying that the Kage didn't lose to Madara, because he pulled perfect Susano'o out of his pussy?

Umm...what? Itachi has been tagged by people slower than A. On top of that Itachi's Sharingan hasn't shown the means to keep up with someone as fast as A. And before you use Naruto as an example let me ask this: Did Naruto even once use his KCM speed?

Nagato has been shown to be more versatile than Naruto in the past on top of having a chakra boost from Bee. Sure Itachi carried the fight but he still required their help. Not sure why you mention this though. At that point Naruto was faster and had more destructive power while Bee was a confirmed mountain buster so no they weren't inferior to Itachi: again not sure what that has to do with this.

That wasn't the Amateratsu shotgun. This is:

Also its been confirmed that Itachi didn't have Enton which is the ability to manipulate the Amateratsu. All he could do with it other than shoot it is retract the flames. Also having the flames spread is different from generating a massive amount of them in one go which Sasuke is able to do. However The Kages have means to outright block it so none of this should be a problem.

What does that have to do with how Itachi's genjustu works? With that particular technique he simple couldn't affect multiple people on top of the genjutsu type itself being rather weak.

That's not how chakra works. You do realize that by implying that Naruto got out of it on his own would make Itachi's genjutsu look even weaker right? Additionally Onoki broke A out of Madara's genjustu: a guy who's more powerful than Itachi.

That number doesn't have any basis to it because we don't have any evidence that Madara's wood clones function like regular ones. The finger genjutsu still requires you to look at him which A could outright avoid with his speed.

Itachi wasn't toying with Bee. Toying would imply that he was willingly fighting Bee which he wasn't. He was on auto-pilot due to the Edo Tensei commands, he had no control over his actions prior to the koto amatsukami.

Again that doesn't make him good at genjustu. Only jinchuruki that have completely mastery over their Biju have genjutsu immunity: this has been covered in canon.

Care to provide an example of someone who's just as powerful as Itachi beating Kabuto? You can't deny that Kabuto was able to create counters to all 3 sharingan tech and juggle both Itachi and Sasuke. Even if Itachi was capable of stopping Kabuto that doesn't make him more powerful: especially if he had to resort to an attack that had no foreshadowing whatsoever.

That analogy is false consider the reader knew Madara wasn't using his full Susanoo and that there had to be something that put him on par with Hashirama. We did not know nor did we have any clue as to where Izanami came from nor did we know how Itachi was able to use it.

BTW trying to argue other topic to get out of debating the current one isn't very cool.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
Umm...what? Itachi has been tagged by people slower than A. On top of that Itachi's Sharingan hasn't shown the means to keep up with someone as fast as A. And before you use Naruto as an example let me ask this: Did Naruto even once use his KCM speed?

Nagato has been shown to be more versatile than Naruto in the past on top of having a chakra boost from Bee. Sure Itachi carried the fight but he still required their help. Not sure why you mention this though. At that point Naruto was faster and had more destructive power while Bee was a confirmed mountain buster so no they weren't inferior to Itachi: again not sure what that has to do with this.

That wasn't the Amateratsu shotgun. This is:

Also its been confirmed that Itachi didn't have Enton which is the ability to manipulate the Amateratsu. All he could do with it other than shoot it is retract the flames. Also having the flames spread is different from generating a massive amount of them in one go which Sasuke is able to do. However The Kages have means to outright block it so none of this should be a problem.

What does that have to do with how Itachi's genjustu works? With that particular technique he simple couldn't affect multiple people on top of the genjutsu type itself being rather weak.

That's not how chakra works. You do realize that by implying that Naruto got out of it on his own would make Itachi's genjutsu look even weaker right? Additionally Onoki broke A out of Madara's genjustu: a guy who's more powerful than Itachi.

That number doesn't have any basis to it because we don't have any evidence that Madara's wood clones function like regular ones. The finger genjutsu still requires you to look at him which A could outright avoid with his speed.

Itachi wasn't toying with Bee. Toying would imply that he was willingly fighting Bee which he wasn't. He was on auto-pilot due to the Edo Tensei commands, he had no control over his actions prior to the koto amatsukami.

Again that doesn't make him good at genjustu. Only jinchuruki that have completely mastery over their Biju have genjutsu immunity: this has been covered in canon.

Care to provide an example of someone who's just as powerful as Itachi beating Kabuto? You can't deny that Kabuto was able to create counters to all 3 sharingan tech and juggle both Itachi and Sasuke. Even if Itachi was capable of stopping Kabuto that doesn't make him more powerful: especially if he had to resort to an attack that had no foreshadowing whatsoever.

That analogy is false consider the reader knew Madara wasn't using his full Susanoo and that there had to be something that put him on par with Hashirama. We did not know nor did we have any clue as to where Izanami came from nor did we know how Itachi was able to use it.

BTW trying to argue other topic to get out of debating the current one isn't very cool.

1. Um... So? A was tagged dozens of times by Sasuke, someone who had his entire team shat on by Bee. Itachi, when actually trying, shat on Nagato, someone who solo'd Bee and Naruto casually, both using their biju forms. Before you bring that retarded shit up again, let me ask YOU this: Is him being in KCM and moving NOT KCM speed, idiot?

👆

2. When did Itachi require their help? He saved them completely while casually killing Nagato with a stab. If it wasn't for Itachi, Naruto and Killer Bee would both be dead right now. It doesn't matter if they have more physical power, they still can't stand up to Itachi's abilities that allowed him to casually dominate a character who was casually dominating them both. Nagato's chakra boost from Bee put him back to his normal peak levels. That's why it made his hair red again. If you're not sure why a feat of Itachi being >>> than a character who was >>> to the person you're saying is better than Itachi, has anything to do with this debate, then you're even dumber than I thought.

3. Uh, no dumb ass, that was clearly Enton: Yasaka Magatama, hints the sharingan tomoe shape of the fireballs. Itachi's still has a vastly larger AOE and faster activation. Sasuke's is more precise, but Itachi's doesn't need to be.

4. Uh, Itachi covered an entire forest in seconds with a single use of Ammy. Sasuke has nowhere near that capacity. ONE of the Kage's can block it. The others get vaporized, and that's if Gaara's not instantly caught in genjutsu.

5. What? Itachi can cast genjutsu at you simply by him pointing. Never did it say that you had to "look" at his finger, lol. How is it weak if it can affect multiple targets from a country away just by him pointing? 👆

6. "Why are you repeating my point? Exactly like I said, it takes two people to break one person out of base finger genjutsu.", when did I even SUGGEST Naruto broke it himself? You're completely twisting my words again. I'll state it outright ONE more time. It takes two people to break one person out of Itachi's finger genjutsu. 👆

Additionally, Madara's full power isn't as good at genjutsu as Itachi is, let alone that 4% full power clone that casually caught A in genjutsu. 👆

7. That number DOES have basis, because we don't have any evidence suggesting wood clones are any different from other clones, dumb ass. 👆

Show me where it ever suggested that you needed to look at Itachi's finger to be caught in his genjutsu. Because I can prove that he doesn't.

"If I have just one finger, it's enough.", nothing about looking at his finger, lol.

8. Itachi not using any of his mangekyo attacks, that make up his entire arsenal of attacks useful against Bee, proves that Kabuto was simply toying with him. As soon as he did start getting serious, Koto amatsukami broke him out of Edo tensei.

9. Again, I never said it did. However, it instantly makes him remarkable at breaking out of genjutsu. Remember that anyone can break genjutsu with enough energy output to overpower the genjutsu's restriction on their chakra flow. Naruto, a powerful jinchuriki with hilariously more chakra than Itachi, still couldn't break a base genjutsu from Itachi by exerting all of his chakra. That is a near biju level feat from Itachi's base finger-genjutsu.

10. No, because Itachi and Sasuke, the only people Kabuto has ever fought while using Oro's cells, killed him in their only fight. Their are plenty of characters capable of shitting on him casually though. Hell, even Killer Bee would have shat on Kabuto by himself. The only difference is that Kabuto SPECIFICALLY made his body capable of countering Itachi and Sasuke's jutsu's. He's still, for the most part, useless against anyone around as strong as Lee or Neji. Naruto could have eaten Kabuto, honestly, but he was solo'ed with Bee by someone Itachi crapped on casually. I will admit. Itachi is nothing without his hax.

It WAS foreshadowed. Every time they've introduced a sharingan tech, their has always been another one for the other eye. It was painfully obvious when Tsukiyomi was introduced that their would be a fire jutsu named Amaterasu, and some kind of jutsu named Susano'o. In case you haven't realized, Naruto uses a lot of japanese mythology like that.

11. So how would the reader know? We saw Madara's casual Susano'o beating five Kage. It was assumed that Hashirama was not that much stronger than them before all the statements from Madara. There was no indication of Hashirama and Madara being casual country busters that could shit on everything casually, biju included. Perfect Susano'o was JUST as much of an ass-pul as Izanami, if not more.

12. Uh, BTW, you're the one who brought Kabuto up in the first place, dip-shit. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Um... So? A was tagged dozens of times by Sasuke, someone who had his entire team shat on by Bee. Itachi, when actually trying, shat on Nagato, someone who solo'd Bee and Naruto casually, both using their biju forms. Before you bring that retarded shit up again, let me ask YOU this: Is him being in KCM and moving NOT KCM speed, idiot?

👆

2. When did Itachi require their help? He saved them completely while casually killing Nagato with a stab. If it wasn't for Itachi, Naruto and Killer Bee would both be dead right now. It doesn't matter if they have more physical power, they still can't stand up to Itachi's abilities that allowed him to casually dominate a character who was casually dominating them both. Nagato's chakra boost from Bee put him back to his normal peak levels. That's why it made his hair red again. If you're not sure why a feat of Itachi being >>> than a character who was >>> to the person you're saying is better than Itachi, has anything to do with this debate, then you're even dumber than I thought.

3. Uh, no dumb ass, that was clearly Enton: Yasaka Magatama, hints the sharingan tomoe shape of the fireballs. Itachi's still has a vastly larger AOE and faster activation. Sasuke's is more precise, but Itachi's doesn't need to be.

4. Uh, Itachi covered an entire forest in seconds with a single use of Ammy. Sasuke has nowhere near that capacity. ONE of the Kage's can block it. The others get vaporized, and that's if Gaara's not instantly caught in genjutsu.

5. What? Itachi can cast genjutsu at you simply by him pointing. Never did it say that you had to "look" at his finger, lol. How is it weak if it can affect multiple targets from a country away just by him pointing? 👆

6. "Why are you repeating my point? Exactly like I said, it takes two people to break one person out of base finger genjutsu.", when did I even SUGGEST Naruto broke it himself? You're completely twisting my words again. I'll state it outright ONE more time. It takes two people to break one person out of Itachi's finger genjutsu. 👆

Additionally, Madara's full power isn't as good at genjutsu as Itachi is, let alone that 4% full power clone that casually caught A in genjutsu. 👆

7. That number DOES have basis, because we don't have any evidence suggesting wood clones are any different from other clones, dumb ass. 👆

Show me where it ever suggested that you needed to look at Itachi's finger to be caught in his genjutsu. Because I can prove that he doesn't.

"If I have just one finger, it's enough.", nothing about looking at his finger, lol.

8. Itachi not using any of his mangekyo attacks, that make up his entire arsenal of attacks useful against Bee, proves that Kabuto was simply toying with him. As soon as he did start getting serious, Koto amatsukami broke him out of Edo tensei.

9. Again, I never said it did. However, it instantly makes him remarkable at breaking out of genjutsu. Remember that anyone can break genjutsu with enough energy output to overpower the genjutsu's restriction on their chakra flow. Naruto, a powerful jinchuriki with hilariously more chakra than Itachi, still couldn't break a base genjutsu from Itachi by exerting all of his chakra. That is a near biju level feat from Itachi's base finger-genjutsu.

10. No, because Itachi and Sasuke, the only people Kabuto has ever fought while using Oro's cells, killed him in their only fight. Their are plenty of characters capable of shitting on him casually though. Hell, even Killer Bee would have shat on Kabuto by himself. The only difference is that Kabuto SPECIFICALLY made his body capable of countering Itachi and Sasuke's jutsu's. He's still, for the most part, useless against anyone around as strong as Lee or Neji. Naruto could have eaten Kabuto, honestly, but he was solo'ed with Bee by someone Itachi crapped on casually. I will admit. Itachi is nothing without his hax.

It WAS foreshadowed. Every time they've introduced a sharingan tech, their has always been another one for the other eye. It was painfully obvious when Tsukiyomi was introduced that their would be a fire jutsu named Amaterasu, and some kind of jutsu named Susano'o. In case you haven't realized, Naruto uses a lot of japanese mythology like that.

11. So how would the reader know? We saw Madara's casual Susano'o beating five Kage. It was assumed that Hashirama was not that much stronger than them before all the statements from Madara. There was no indication of Hashirama and Madara being casual country busters that could shit on everything casually, biju included. Perfect Susano'o was JUST as much of an ass-pul as Izanami, if not more.

12. Uh, BTW, you're the one who brought Kabuto up in the first place, dip-shit. 👆

Define dozens of times. Sasuke tagged A once in that fight and that was due to him using a head on charge and he wasn't using his level 2 Raiton armor: only two people have been able to dodge A when he's using his fully speed.

Itachi couldn't have destroyed Chibaku Tensei on his own by his own admission nor could he have broken out of the Edo Tensei w/o Naruot being there to begin with. This is due to Itachi lacking the destructive power to deal with Chibaku Tensei on his own. Sure, he saved Naruto and Bee from Nagato but he couldn't have beat Nagato w/o their help.

Where is it stated Itachi had Enton or shown using it. If your talking about the fireballs he aimed at Sasuke, that's how Amateratsu initially works. Enton is the ability to manipulate the flames into spikes, or shuriken or even a swords: an ability only Sasuke has.

Seconds? where did that timeframe come from? Also Amateratsu is know to spread so having it cover the surrounding area of the hideout so it isn't hard to believe that Itachi could blanket the entire area with only a few shots of it.

You misinterpreted that panel. Looking at Itachi's finger is how Naruto got caught in the first place. If all Itachi had to do was point at people then all four of them would've been under it. Also it only took a smack to the face to break him out of it.

It only takes one person as illustrated in the Killer Bee example and the Onoki and A example. Naruto was still stunned but the genjustu ended when Sakura smacked him. It even said in the panel that Sakura smacked Naruto that he woke up from it. You stated that Naruto's high chakra would give him leverage to break out of it: which if that were the case would make Itachi look weak.

Except for the fact that Madara goes out of his was to tell the Kages how they are different. There so similar to the original that only Madara was able to tell Hashirama from the clones whenever they used him. Again simple math doesn't cut it when we don't have anything to base the number off of...

As for Itachi thing...I already posted it but I can do it again:

In the above is when Naruto realizes how he fell under the genjustu.

Then that would me Kabuto was toying with Bee not Itachi. I person can't toy with someone if they don't have the free will to enact it themselves.

No they cannot. To break out of a genjutsu requires knowledge of the fact that your in one and a release formation that breaks you out of it. More chakra doesn't mean better genjutsu control. And regardless of how potent a genjutsu is unless it Tsukuyom(which has a clear restriction) or Koto Amatsukami(which is virtually a geass) an individual can be broken out of genjustu if the have a partner. Also why do you keep using Naruto as the basis for your genjustu argument? The Kages particularly Tsunade and Onoki are suited for dealing with Genjutsu recovery and damage. Furthermore you've yet to prove a reason why I should believe all five Kages would fall for a genjutsu simultaneously. Again if they could avoid 25 Madara's then they can avoid one Iatchi.

Beating someone doesn't necessarily mean your more powerful than them as proven in the Kisame vs Bee, Sakura/Chiyo vs Sasori, Shikamaru vs Hidan, Naruto vs Pein, or even Sasuke vs Itachi fights. Also the way Kabuto was beaten doesn't suggest that either of them were more powerful than him. With the upgrades Kabuto countered everything they had prior to Izanami.

What you described is not foreshadowing but rather guessing. Izanagi was foreshadowed, Susanoo (albeit poorly) was foreshadowed, Heck even Koto Amatsukami had hints leading up to it since Itachi encountered Naruto at the beginning of Part 2. Izanami literally came out of nowhere and not only that, was able to provide the exact means to beat Kabuto. None of the character prior to the Kabuto fight even hint that the Sharingan had such a power.

The readers would know since we knew Madara was dicking around with the SA and the Kages, we knew that the Susanoo Madara used while summoning meteors wasn't its full form due to its size and visible skeletal structure, and we knew that Madara was the only person in Hashirama's time that could compete with him. Therefore Madara's full Susanoo was foreshadowed even if we didn't know exactly what it was capable of.

The Kabuto example was made in order to rebut your claim that only and Uchiha could beat Itachi. Which again is false.