Itachi vs The Gokage

Started by wakkawakkawakka9 pages

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Excuse me? Itachi has been stated to be able to use Genjutsu on multiple people from continents away. I'm pretty sure a few Kage's at close range that would be stumped by Kurenai's Genjutsu would be fodder to his. 👆

If its not Tsukuyomi they shouldn't have a problem with it. All of the Kages know who Itachi is and what he's capable of based off of conversations involving him in canon. Also there's this neat panel of Onoki breaking A out of a regular Sharingan genjutsu: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/10

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

LOLOLOLOLOLOL, Naruto was IN KCM mode, and FIGHTING AT HIS BEST in KCM mode, yet your excuse is that he wasn't using KCM speed? LOL. That's got to be up there with the most fanboy-ish posts I've ever seen on here.

When has Gaara done that? I don't recall him ever going inside of Susano'o. Not that it would matter, considering you're still dodging what I've been trying to get across for several posts.


Show me a scan of Naruto moving at Yellow flash speeds while fighting Nagato and Itachi. If you can't then that mean Nagato is not faster than Naruto. Using your A/B/C logic would make Kabuto the second fastest character in the Narutoverse for tagging Itachi and that's just absurd.

As for Gaara I'm glad that you asked here's yet another set of scans:
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/12
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/13

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta

Again, for the last time, either explain what the Kage's could do against Itachi's Genjutsu before he would have the chance to kill them all, admit that you were wrong, or just tell me that you're too close-minded to change your opinion so I can stop wasting my time with you. I've posted scans and facts to prove my point, you're simply making outrageous claim after claim. It's ridiculous, and I don't want to keep this pointless argument up if you're not going to contribute anything other than your biased opinion. 👆

I've already done this but I don't have a problem refining my stance. A is fast enough to avoid direct eye contact(which once again is required for Tsukuyomi to work), Mei could also use her hidden mist tech to kill visibility, Tsundae could possibly repair mental trauma to someone who's been caught in genjutsu if she can't break them out of it similar to how she healed Kakashi and Sasuke. Then there's Gaara who could avoid looking at Itachi directly with his third eye tech and Onoki who could break people out of basic genjutsu.

Now answer my question which you still appear to be dodging. Exactly what is Itachi going to do against the Kage combo tech? Considering its Omni-directional, the Yata mirror is not going to cut it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree.

Nothing suggests that Itachi would have a chance against the Raikage in a 1 v 1. In the manga, Kishimoto made it pretty obvious that Raikage is pretty much the end all be all of 1 v 1 fights minus Minato*. Itachi literally does not have the speed or reflexes to keep up with the Raikage. Itachi will not get as far as Sasuke did against the Raikage because Itachi is not as fast as Sasuke AND Itachi does not have as much Amaterasu skill as Sasuke.

*Madara and Obito do not count.


Oh, you was just joking. lol

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I've already done this but I don't have a problem refining my stance. A is fast enough to avoid direct eye contact(which once again is required for Tsukuyomi to work), Mei could also use her hidden mist tech to kill visibility, Tsundae could possibly repair mental trauma to someone who's been caught in genjutsu if she can't break them out of it similar to how she healed Kakashi and Sasuke. Then there's Gaara who could avoid looking at Itachi directly with his third eye tech and Onoki who could break people out of basic genjutsu.

You win.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka By that logic why didn't he try casting it on both Bee and Naruto at the same time? Assuming its as unbreakable as its been hyped up to be and Bee's already negated a weaker version of it they would be completely vulnerable to it.

Because he didn't use the Mangekyo Sharingan while fighting them and wasn't able to freely control his bod, nor did he get to go all out. So your point here is moot.

B fell for one of Itachi's basic genjutsus during that fight though. And indeed, there would be no breaking out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi:

I think Naruto knows what he's talking about.

But that's just it, Itachi hasn't been shown using Tsukuyomi like that so we can't just assume he can till we have some solid feats.

We have Kakashi telling 2 other people to not look into Itachi's eyes while he activated Tsukuyomi and then we also have Shikaku saying that Itachi can put multiple people under his genjutsu. So why are we not allowed to put two and two together?

Gaara can fly

He's getting put under genjutsu from the get-go. There won't be no flying for him, at least in the real world.

A can avoid direct eye contact(which is required for Tsykuyomi to work

They've never fought Itachi and don't even know a thing about Tsukuyomi, so how would they know to avoid making eye-contact with him? And again, Itachi can use his regular high-level genjutsu without his eyes. See what happened to Orochimaru and Naruto.

and if his gaze is focused on one Kage four other can make up for it. Onoki along with the rest of the Kage have shown at least some prior ability to negated genjutsu so yeah the basic stuff would be a waste of time.

You have to keep in mind that Itachi's basic genjutsus are in different league than other people's genjutsus. Or are you going to tell me that Deidara and Orochimaru are going to get wrecked by just any genjutsu? lol

Nagato hasn't shown speedster qualities though neither with his full body or paths. And considering how little Naruto was using the speed his KCM gave him I have reason to doubt that Nagato actually caught him in a blitz.

His Deva Path was going toe-to-toe with KN6 Naruto who is roughly around RM Naruto. Nagato >> Deva Path, stated on-panel by someone who had fought both. CIS is not a good argument when there's only one author and one storyline. That shit only runs with comic books or when there are multiple adaptations of a manga series.

He's not getting all five at once. Now even Madara with 25 clones could get all five Kages under genjutsu at once. Mei's the most likely to get caught out of the five and even that might be a stretch.

Madara didn't try to genjutsu the five Kage as far as I recall. Feel free to prove me wrong with scans.

Edit: Hold up...I just now realized that they're up against Edo Itachi. Which means he could possibly use his MS techs as much as he wanted on top of Izanami(though it would hinder more than help IMO). I still think the Kages win but it'll be much tougher.

Edo Tensei Itachi is a nerfed Itachi....

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Edo Tensei Itachi is a nerfed Itachi....

According to Madara, that's true (it was so true that the physical bodied Madara owned the shit out of some ET heavy hitters once he got his real body...the results are: faster reflexes and speedier attacks (a real body appears to be more responsive). The only difference between ET Itachi and regular Itachi is regular Itachi just has low stamina.

Originally posted by dadudemon
According to Madara, that's true (it was so true that the physical bodied Madara owned the shit out of some ET heavy hitters once he got his real body...the results are: faster reflexes and speedier attacks (a real body appears to be more responsive). The only difference between ET Itachi and regular Itachi is regular Itachi just has low stamina.

Clearly, Hashirama was nerfed as well in Edo Tensei form. so why would it not be true for everyone?

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
If its not Tsukuyomi they shouldn't have a problem with it. All of the Kages know who Itachi is and what he's capable of based off of conversations involving him in canon. Also there's this neat panel of Onoki breaking A out of a regular Sharingan genjutsu: http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/588/10

Show me a scan of Naruto moving at Yellow flash speeds while fighting Nagato and Itachi. If you can't then that mean Nagato is not faster than Naruto. Using your A/B/C logic would make Kabuto the second fastest character in the Narutoverse for tagging Itachi and that's just absurd.

As for Gaara I'm glad that you asked here's yet another set of scans:
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/12
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/13

I've already done this but I don't have a problem refining my stance. A is fast enough to avoid direct eye contact(which once again is required for Tsukuyomi to work), Mei could also use her hidden mist tech to kill visibility, Tsundae could possibly repair mental trauma to someone who's been caught in genjutsu if she can't break them out of it similar to how she healed Kakashi and Sasuke. Then there's Gaara who could avoid looking at Itachi directly with his third eye tech and Onoki who could break people out of basic genjutsu.

Now answer my question which you still appear to be dodging. Exactly what is Itachi going to do against the Kage combo tech? Considering its Omni-directional, the Yata mirror is not going to cut it.

You're still dodging my question. Shikaku stated that Itachi could use Genjutsu on mutliple people from continents away at the same time. What are the Kage going to do when they're all caught in Genjutsu right off the bat and then vaporized with Amaterasu that they don't have the means to dodge?

If it's not Tsukiyomi, they still all get wrecked by it. Itachi's Genjutsu is incomparable to others. Unless you're saying that Kurenai would also one panel Orochimaru, and Deidara, that is the most retarded argument I've ever heard. Obito said Sasuke's Genjutsu was even better than his, and Danzo said that Itachi's was as above Sasuke's as heaven is from Earth. Itachi has literally the best Genjutsu in the series. Genjutsu that allowed him to one panel Orochimaru without Mangekyo sharingan, an even stronger Orochimaru in his prime than the one that was able to best Jiraiya and Tsunade even with his arms dead. Jiraiya alone was said at that point to be more powerful than Madara(without rinnegan), by Itachi when he told Kisame that Jiraiya would defeat even the Akatsuki's leader. Itachi knew since he killed his clan that Madara was the true leader of Akatsuki, not Obito and not Pain.

Orochimaru has some splendid feats that put him around Madara's level. These feats include beating Jiraiya in his prime, who would be around the level of Hashirama considering he could defeat all the Pains at once when he was over 50 years old, killing the third Hokage without suffering any injury other than the loss of his arms for a short period, and besting Jiraiya and Tsunade at the same time without his arms. Itachi one paneling someone who did all that easily proves he would shit on the Kage with his Genjutsu.

Orochimaru would be able to defeat any two kage at the same time, and Itachi one paneled him with Genjutsu the Kage would stand no chance against it.

What? Naruto didn't use Yellow flash against them. I'm not arguing Itachi is faster than the Yellow flash jutsu, I'm saying he's faster than ANY Naruto. While Naruto could use Yellow flash to avoid him, he'd still get blitzed by Itachi just using his normal speed, as demonstrated by him dominating someone who soloed him AND Killer Bee at the same time. Naruto without Yellow flash isn't that fast at all. He got dominated by the third Raikage's speed, and A was the fastest Raikage, and Sasuke with a newly awakened, premature Mangekyo kept up with his speed while they fought. Raikage would get dominated by Itachi's or Nagato's speed.

Oh, so Gaara's SAND can get in Susano'o, and not him. Yeah, I already knew that. Again though, what will that do when all the Kage are trapped in Genjutsu at once. I know individually that the Kage could save each other from basic Genjutsu, but what will they do when they're ALL caught in it at once? Nothing.

The Kage combo tech? Which one? It doesn't matter anyway, because they're still not getting through his Susano'o, Yata mirror, and his Genjutsu that he can use on a fly on even the fastest speedsters. No matter what, Gaara's sand isn't enough to do anything to Itachi, when Itachi could just use his Susano'o to easily stab through his defenses, or use Genjutsu on him to create an opening for Amaterasu.

One last time. How will the Kage get past the first five seconds of the fight, when Itachi would instantly capture them all in Genjutsu that they have been proven to be unable to escape, before instantly vaporizing them all with a single Amaterasu shotgun? The only people who can legitimately beat Itachi if he was actually trying to kill them are MS/EMS Sasuke, Obito/Jyuubito, Madara and possibly Hashirama. Any other characters have no defense against instant Genjutsu/Amaterasu combo. No one, not Naruto, not Minato, not the Gokage team, not anyone other than the ones I listed and possibly a few others that I can't think of right now. Not even other Genjutsu experts like Kurenai, because again, Itachi is the best Genjutsu user in the series.

It's not a matter of "can he survive the Kage combo", it's a matter of can they survive Amaterasu when they can't dodge it? Which is an obvious no. 👆

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Clearly, Hashirama was nerfed as well in Edo Tensei form. so why would it not be true for everyone?

That was kind of obvious even before Madara confirmed it. Take Kakuzu and Sasori for instance: they were definitely more powerful alive than dead. However Itachi is like Hiruzen in that he can use his most powerful tech more frequently due to Edo regen and unlimited chakra. Mortal Itachi, though more powerful, wouldn't have that luxury.

I'd hate to double post but it wouldn't be fair if I didn't address the meat of the counter-argument.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Because he didn't use the Mangekyo Sharingan while fighting them and wasn't able to freely control his bod, nor did he get to go all out. So your point here is moot.

B fell for one of Itachi's basic genjutsus during that fight though. And indeed, there would be no breaking out of Itachi's Tsukuyomi:

I think Naruto knows what he's talking about.


Okay I can buy Itachi being held back by the Edo. But Bee still shouldn't be that concerned with Tsukuyomi being a perfect host and all which would make him all the more vulnerable. Just seems weird not to take that opportunity. Bee also broke out of the basic stuff IIRC.

Originally posted by TheTyrant

We have Kakashi telling 2 other people to not look into Itachi's eyes while he activated Tsukuyomi and then we also have Shikaku saying that Itachi can put multiple people under his genjutsu. So why are we not allowed to put two and two together?

He's getting put under genjutsu from the get-go. There won't be no flying for him, at least in the real world.


Better to be cautionsI supposed and considering Kurenai had already fallen for Itachi's counter genjutsu it was a good idea. Mutliple genjutsu doesn't necessarily mean Tsukuyomi nor does it mean he could do it to multiple people simultaneously.

As for Gaara, it'd be unlikely he'd get caught due to him having a 3rd eye tech that would prevent direct eye contact. Even if the worse happens Tsunade could repair the damage. Also if Itachi focuses on one Kage exclusively, the remaining four could easily jump him.

Originally posted by TheTyrant

They've never fought Itachi and don't even know a thing about Tsukuyomi, so how would they know to avoid making eye-contact with him? And again, Itachi can use his regular high-level genjutsu without his eyes. See what happened to Orochimaru and Naruto.

You have to keep in mind that Itachi's basic genjutsus are in different league than other people's genjutsus. Or are you going to tell me that Deidara and Orochimaru are going to get wrecked by just any genjutsu? lol


The Kage Summit confirms that all Kages have at least some knowledge of all the Akatsuki members. Heck C even makes a comparison to Itachi based on Sasuke's showings. Orochimaru was at his most vulnerable and Naruto hadn't shown aptitude with genjutsu at all when that happened: he did get a kickass crow for his trouble.

Genjutsu is awesome in 1 on 1 battles especially to the degree Itachi has mastered them. However almost all of them bar Tsukuyomi loose their potency when there' someone to break of victim out of it.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
His Deva Path was going toe-to-toe with KN6 Naruto who is roughly around RM Naruto. Nagato >> Deva Path, stated on-panel by someone who had fought both. CIS is not a good argument when there's only one author and one storyline. That shit only runs with comic books or when there are multiple adaptations of a manga series.

Madara didn't try to genjutsu the five Kage as far as I recall. Feel free to prove me wrong with scans.


KN6 wasn't using Yellow Flash levels of speed but that is impressive for Deva Path. Also Nagato still wasn't that mobile even when he was restored but he did show us that Path Powers work just find on KCM Naruto. The CIS argument in the case of Edo Nagato still stands considering we don't Naruto using his uber speed much at all, well at least not until the 3rd Raikage fight.

Madara caught the fastest Kage there and put him under genjutsu and had little difficulty dealing with Mei and Gaara so it stand to reason that he had the capacity to put all five under genjutsu. By extension if Onoki and Tsunade can each avoid getting caught with 5 pairs of Sharingan looking at them, I don't see why Itachi would be that difficult to maneuver around.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You know what? Thank you. Thank you for actually approaching this without hostility. I won't say who, but another mod pissed me off when he did what you just did. He did it rudely though, and basically forced me to reply with even more hostility. (IMO)

Since you seem like a nice guy though, just trying to comply with the report Bentley sent, I'll actually try to be less rude on here. You have my word. In fact, before sending my previous post, I actually toned it down severely to assure you wouldn't be displeased.

durpalm

petpet

Originally posted by Badabing
durpalm

petpet

boxing

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
boxing
ohno

durbeware

Originally posted by Badabing
ohno

durbeware

ranting

rifle

itachi cant beat all of them at once becasue if madara wasnt an edo he would have lost against the kage

Originally posted by chasedown
itachi cant beat all of them at once becasue if madara wasnt an edo he would have lost against the kage

...

Are you high?

The Kage nearly shat their pants from just witnessing Perfect Susano'o.

Not to mention that, again, ITACHI CAN USE GENJUTSU ON MULTIPLE PEOPLE AT ONCE.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
...

Are you high?

The Kage nearly shat their pants from just witnessing Perfect Susano'o.

Not to mention that, again, ITACHI CAN USE GENJUTSU ON MULTIPLE PEOPLE AT ONCE.

Yea but a living itachi is leagues less formidable than his edo tensei form.
I dont remember him putting genjutsu on more than one person with one jutsu.
A strong genjutsu anyway.

Remember that with each use of mangekyou techniques itachi becomes greatly fatigued. Raikage , tsuchikage, tsunade , garra , and mei could prove to a problem for regular living itachi. Together they have smashed thru susanoo more than a few times.

Edo tensei itachi i think would beat them though because those mangekyou techs are just too hax and he could spam them in edo form.

Originally posted by chasedown
Yea but a living itachi is leagues less formidable than his edo tensei form.

Obviously.

Originally posted by chasedown
I dont remember him putting genjutsu on more than one person with one jutsu.
A strong genjutsu anyway.

Because it was a statement. Again though, you're failing to remember that even with weak Genjutsu, Itachi can easily catch people in it, rendering them useless without outside help. Asuma's statement proves that the Gokage have no defense against it, because he can get them all in it at once, and none of them can break out of it with their chakra because they are all demonstrably weaker than or at most equal to Biju/Jinchuriki level.

All it takes then is one amaterasu shotgun and everyone but possibly Gaara and Tsunade are dead.

Originally posted by chasedown
Remember that with each use of mangekyou techniques itachi becomes greatly fatigued.

Raikage , tsuchikage, tsunade , garra , and mei could prove to a problem for regular living itachi. Together they have smashed thru susanoo more than a few times.

Edo tensei itachi i think would beat them though because those mangekyou techs are just too hax and he could spam them in edo form.

1. Duh.

2. But not Yata mirror.

3. Duh.

👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Obviously.

Because it was a statement. Again though, you're failing to remember that even with weak Genjutsu, Itachi can easily catch people in it, rendering them useless without outside help. Asuma's statement proves that the Gokage have no defense against it, because he can get them all in it at once, and none of them can break out of it with their chakra because they are all demonstrably weaker than or at most equal to Biju/Jinchuriki level.

All it takes then is one amaterasu shotgun and everyone but possibly Gaara and Tsunade are dead.

1. Duh.

2. But not Yata mirror.

3. Duh.

👆

Really raikage dodged amaterasu.

Mei has hidden mist jutsu using that in combination with the kage they can beat him. They can avoid simple weak genjutsu.

Itachi alive cant beat all of them at once One on one yea but not all at the same time. You under estimate the kage. Look at exausted he was fighting sasuke. The 5 kage at once would be too much for him. Even for a great ninja like him. Now if it was edo itachi then itd be a different story itachi for the win.

Originally posted by chasedown
Really raikage dodged amaterasu.

Mei has hidden mist jutsu using that in combination with the kage they can beat him. They can avoid simple weak genjutsu.

Itachi alive cant beat all of them at once One on one yea but not all at the same time. You under estimate the kage. Look at exausted he was fighting sasuke. The 5 kage at once would be too much for him. Even for a great ninja like him. Now if it was edo itachi then itd be a different story itachi for the win.

1. How does that matter if he's caught in genjutsu while Amaterasu is being shot at him?

2. Why does Mei's hidden mist matter if Itachi can instantly vaporize it with fire style or amaterasu shotgun?

3. How can they avoid "simple weak" genjutsu, when Itachi activates it simply by pointing, and can use it on them all at once?

4. No.

5. Itachi solo's.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. How does that matter if he's caught in genjutsu while Amaterasu is being shot at him?

2. Why does Mei's hidden mist matter if Itachi can instantly vaporize it with fire style or amaterasu shotgun?

3. How can they avoid "simple weak" genjutsu, when Itachi activates it simply by pointing, and can use it on them all at once?

4. No.

5. Itachi solo's.

The amount of exhaustion a living itachi experienced against sasuke who was much weaker than the kage at that point says otherwise.

Whose to say raikage cant blitz him while using amaterasu or tsuchikage atomically dismantling the fire. Especially if itachi cant see because the hidden mist.

Lol these are the kage were talking about not some simple chunnin. An onslaught of continous attacks could prove to be more than enough for a living itachi. Yes itachi has alot of strong mangekyou attacks but each of those attacks greatly exaust him as well as may leave him blind. He cant contiously spam them like he could in edo form