The HoT defeated the most powerful Sith in history.
The Barsen'thor defeated an ancient Sith Lord who was leeching force power from hundreds of Jedi Masters. And she was greatly weakened at the time.
You should read my respect threads:
The HoT defeated the most powerful Sith in history.
The Barsen'thor defeated an ancient Sith Lord who was leeching force power from hundreds of Jedi Masters. And she was greatly weakened at the time.
You should read my respect threads:
No, I'd say you heavily underestimate the likes of Yoda and Mace. 🙄
Here's your 'not great':
Casually smashing through a building-sized, meter-thick blast door with one hand right at the start of the game.
4.30. Casually throwing a 250 ton chunk of metal away like a paper cup.
9.30 Tanking an explosion that destroyed a blast door.
27.25. Bashing through a Rakatan blast door said to be impenetrable.
6.58. Blocking a lightsaber with a Force Shield.
And thats just the Barsen'thor. The Hero of Tython is explicitly stated to be superior to her by multiple people.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I'd say you heavily underestimate the likes of Yoda and Mace. 🙄Here's your 'not great':
Didn't watch the videos, too long (alltogether they add up to 90 minutes, that's the length of RotJ which I have yet to see) plus spoilers.
It's your choice, either they're comparable to the likes of Yoda and Mace and thus easily comparable to the likes of Hoth etc., or they're much better than both. You don't get to make the argument that they're so much better than elite Jedi/Sith and on the level of the Sith they killed or the hundreds of Jedi that powered them, and yet still cling to the status quo and claim that the likes of Yoda and Mace are as good. You can't bake your cake and eat it too bro.
You don't have to watch the video's. I wrote down the times when the feats I'm referring to take place under each one. Just start the video then skip to the times. And then bow before the glory of the Barsen'thor.
I do get to make that argument because Yoda is far superior to a feat-starved loser like Hoth. And I also get to make the argument that they're on the level of Vitiate and Vivicar because they've actually defeated those two. So its actual fact that they are.
Hoth may be feat-starved, but I wasn't making a real case for him, just saying that I wouldn't be surprised, and his stature and what little we know about him would suggest that he would be comparable to Yoda. He was the most powerful being of a more powerful order, and has been shown to cut through swaths of Sith at once singlehandedly. So I take that back, he isn't feat-starved. Sure Palpatine may have destroyed the B Team with ease, and Yoda is his peer, but Hoth is described as cutting through around a dozen of them singlehandedly, and while they may not have been quite as powerful as the likes of Kit and Agen they were far superior in numbers. Only person we've seen do something comparable that I know of is Kol Skywalker.
Raskta and Sarro both receive great accolades that would put them comparable to Mace Windu imo.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You don't have to watch the video's. I wrote down the times when the feats I'm referring to take place under each one. Just start the video then skip to the times. And then bow before the glory of the Barsen'thor.I do get to make that argument because Yoda is far superior to a feat-starved loser like Hoth. And I also get to make the argument that they're on the level of Vitiate and Vivicar because they've actually defeated those two. So its actual fact that they are.
How is Yoda on the same level as someone that was being powered up by hundreds of Jedi Masters?
Or do you say he is simply to preserve the status quo that you cling to?
If Vitiate is only around Mace Windu's level, then clearly he isn't this dark side titan that people make him out to be, a la Nihilus.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
This is all speculation bro. You can't definitely prove anything. The best we can do is apply reason to find out what is more probable, and it is simply more likely that war that lasts hundreds of generations would have a greater impact than one that lasted a mere few decades.
Not really. I don't really know what to call it, but the difference is that my argument is based on facts that we know to be true. Facts that indicate a high level of martial ability. So its not so much speculation as it is extrapolation of the facts of the era. Your argument is based on only one thing, the length of the war. From this you argue that they would be stronger, but theres nothing actually supporting your theory in the slightest.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Such a thing as survival of the fittest and the will of the Force, bro. War serves its purpose in separating the weak from the strong, and the will of the Force itself seems to favour those with stronger connections to the Force with greater destinies.Regarding knowledge, Jedi combat favours the more basic techniques for the most part, which is why we rarely see much more than telekinesis being useful in combat, so lost knowledge probably wouldn't be that big of a deal, and the stuff that was truly beneficial to combat would likely be being taught to the entire order (or the more advanced staff just to the masters) rather than being kept hidden away in storage, so it's likely the most beneficial pieces of knowledge would have remained simply via widespread tutelage of the techniques.
It simply makes more sense that the NSW Jedi would have been molded into a collective force that was more suited for Jedi vs Sith warfare than the ToR Jedi, and that their superior training and way of thinking, when combined with their battle experience and survivale of the fittest/will of the Force, would have made them the most effective fighters the Jedi had ever known.
No it doesn't. War leads to tons of the strongest Jedi getting killed. In Swtor most of the strongest Jedi and Sith are dead by the end of it. In Kotor, the JCW had practically wiped out the Jedi, leaving only a hundred left alive. Exar Kuns war led to numerous Jedi turning to the Dark Side and some of the greatest and most learned Jedi being killed. Then the Clone Wars led to practically them all dying.
But a Jedi's connection to the Force is determined by their knowledge and study of it. "Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.” The loss of knowledge would surely harm the Jedi greatly.
The Sith of Vitiates Empire are stated to have greatly improved their skill and martial ability from the previous Empire, The Golden Age of the Sith. For OVER a thousand years they have done absolutely nothing else than prepare for the war seen in Swtor. They have access to ancient and powerful techniques and knowledge the NSW Sith do not, and are completely devoted to the Dark Side, unlike the former era. Their training is the definition of survival of the fittest and will of the Force. Their Order numbers in the millions, probably the tens of millions.
And the Jedi are beating them in Swtor.
The facts support them being the Jedi at their best. Your opinion is the only thing supporting the NSW era.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Anyone who matters.*Not to mention Yoda himself is well known but not all of the obscure feats or descriptions are, which is largely what Sidious 66 is referring to.
Meh.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Hoth may be feat-starved, but I wasn't making a real case for him, just saying that I wouldn't be surprised, and his stature and what little we know about him would suggest that he would be comparable to Yoda. He was the most powerful being of a more powerful order, and has been shown to cut through swaths of Sith at once singlehandedly. So I take that back, he isn't feat-starved. Sure Palpatine may have destroyed the B Team with ease, and Yoda is his peer, but Hoth is described as cutting through around a dozen of them singlehandedly, and while they may not have been quite as powerful as the likes of Kit and Agen they were far superior in numbers. Only person we've seen do something comparable that I know of is Kol Skywalker.Raskta and Sarro both receive great accolades that would put them comparable to Mace Windu imo.
The Exile cut through an entire temple of Sith single handedly, yet was stomped handily by Nyriss in a 2 on 1 battle even with Scourges help. Nyriss was then stomped by Revan in a single move. Revan was then defeated by Emperor Vitiate.
Vitiate was later defeated by the Hero of Tython. After the Hero had fought through an entire city of soldiers and a temple full of Sith and Imperial Guards (so skilled, the strongest Sith surrender to death rather than even attempt to fight them).
Cutting through a bunch of Jedi or Sith is ok, but its hardly great. Those people are fodder compared to the greats.
Raskta is indeed highly skilled on a level comparable to Windu, but I question if her connection to the Force is comparable to his. The only time we see her is when she's amped by BM anyway. As an overall combatant without that I wouldn't put her on par with him.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
How is Yoda on the same level as someone that was being powered up by hundreds of Jedi Masters?Or do you say he is simply to preserve the status quo that you cling to?
If Vitiate is only around Mace Windu's level, then clearly he isn't this dark side titan that people make him out to be, a la Nihilus.
Yoda fought evenly with Sidious, who is one of if not the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos. He's probably the most knowledgeable and skilled Jedi Master in history. Yoda is at a pretty ****ing high level.
The status quo is there for a reason. Because it has a lot of support and evidence behind it. I don't cling to it, I challenge it regularly. Its just that I challenge it with actual facts.
Vitiate is way higher than Windu's level. And he is above Nihilus too:
"The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed." (SWTORE, Page 89)
"The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld." (SWTORE, Page 148)
"The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen." (SWTOR: Codex Entry)
(Thank you Legend for the easy quotes)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. I don't really know what to call it, but the difference is that my argument is based on facts that we know to be true. Facts that indicate a high level of martial ability. So its not so much speculation as it is extrapolation of the facts of the era. Your argument is based on only one thing, the length of the war. From this you argue that they would be stronger, but theres nothing actually supporting your theory in the slightest.
We are both extrapolating from basic facts.
Me: Length of the war leads me to believe this about the era...
You: Specific individuals lead me to believe this about the era...
We are both doing the same thing, we simply have slightly different methods.
No it doesn't. War leads to tons of the strongest Jedi getting killed. In Swtor most of the strongest Jedi and Sith are dead by the end of it. In Kotor, the JCW had practically wiped out the Jedi, leaving only a hundred left alive. Exar Kuns war led to numerous Jedi turning to the Dark Side and some of the greatest and most learned Jedi being killed. Then the Clone Wars led to practically them all dying.
All Jedi and Sith eventually die bro. It's all cyclical. The point is that the stronger Jedi usually survive longer and achieve more while they're alive, and when they eventually die, are replaced by the stronger individuals of the next generation. Repeat and rinse. You get exceptions but for the most part this is how it works. You end up with a higher average level of Jedi, and the more powerful ones typically are among the last to fall. And it's very clear that those very special few that have been gifted by the Force with great "destinies", those with the most powerful connections to the Force, usually perservere no matter what. Hence people like Orgus Din dying, but the Knight and the Consular surviving all the way to the latest ToR novel, or people like Yoda, surviving the destruction of the entire order.
And of course, when the war eventually ends, and one side loses, then obviously that order is basically destroyed and no longer as strong as it once was during the war.
But while the war is still being waged, the cyclical nature of it simply means that when strong Jedi die, they are simply replaced by other strong Jedi of the next generation as I was saying.
But a Jedi's connection to the Force is determined by their knowledge and study of it. "Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.” The loss of knowledge would surely harm the Jedi greatly.
Jedi Hogwash. Size matters not. At the end of a day a Jedi's power is based on knowing simple techniques and become finely attuned to the Force that surrounds them. TK, precognition, extrasensory perceptions, enhancing one's attributes, learning to listen to the will of the Force etc. these are all simple techniques, that live on through widespread use of it throughout the order and don't simply die because a holocron gets destroyed, as does the means by which to become more finely attuned to the Force.
One of the things about war shaping a Jedi's training as that there would be widespread use of the techniques and teachings that make Jedi equipped to wage war, rather than such stuff being locked away in holocrons never to be used.
The Sith of Vitiates Empire are stated to have greatly improved their skill and martial ability from the previous Empire, [b]The Golden Age of the Sith.
Bro the Sith of old didn't even use lightsabers and didn't know what it meant to fight a lightside using Jedi Knight, but focused more on stuff like alchemy and weird arcane darkside rituals and spells. It makes perfect sense that they would be more skilled combatants then that era.
For OVER a thousand years they have done absolutely nothing else than prepare for the war seen in Swtor. They have access to ancient and powerful techniques and knowledge the NSW Sith do not, and are completely devoted to the Dark Side, unlike the former era. Their training is the definition of survival of the fittest and will of the Force. Their Order numbers in the millions, probably the tens of millions.
Preparing for a war is nothing compared to actually fighting it. And regardless of those cool techniques that they have access to, JvS combat for the most part is always demonstrated to be fought using the basic techniques. The more arcane staff is more of a rarity, and the rituals are usually used strategically on a large scale.
And the Jedi are beating them in Swtor.
Cool story?
Also, PoD makes a point of how the lightside of the Force grows stronger when the Jedi unite en mass, whereas the darkside grows weaker.
Plus the war isn't fought entirely by Force Users. Naval battles and ground warfare involving non Force Users, espionage and assassination etc make up a large part of the warfare.
The facts support them being the Jedi at their best. Your opinion is the only thing supporting the NSW era.
We are both using facts, the difference is simply how we're applying them.