Revan/Bane v. Mace/Yoda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Millions of members, rediscovered knowledge of the first Jedi, highly militaristic and well trained, the greatest number of skilled combatants of any era known (I counted), Hero of Tython and Barsen'thor shit on any Bane-era Jedi, titled 'The Jedi Renaissance.'

I think the key difference is the length of both conflicts. The ToR Jedi had become accustomed to a period of relative peace, and taken completely by surprise by the Sith invasion, with about a few decades since to adjust to it. The NSW by comparison lasted for over a thousand years, and have seen approximately hundreds of generations of Jedi. The NSW would have presumably impacted the first generation of Jedi in a similar way that the war impacted the ToR Jedi. However, fast forward a few generations, and they would have began to made adjustments to Jedi training, their philosophy, expectations etc. Fast forward a few more generations and they would have begun to fine tune their practises as they continue to learn from war and mistakes they may have made. Fast forward a few more generations and they would have begun to perfect their practises in the face of war. Now fast forward hundreds of generations and you have the Army of Light, a time where peace has literally become a myth for the galaxy and the Jedi have lived for hundreds of years as a finely tuned machine of war. The ToR Jedi by comparison are still stuck in that first generation of Jedi that have just started learning how to wage war.

They're really not comparable.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
We don't know that is a reference to skill alone, or simply overall ability. Kas'im has direct accolades for his skills.

The source itself is emphasizing how all seven forms play out in combat and how to understand the "combat moves" of Yoda, then goes on to state that Yoda was perhaps the greatest lightsaber master of all time. Obviously it's a testament to Yoda's skill, which is a better accolade than Kas'im's.

As far as the force goes, Yoda was equal to Sidious with respect to force speed, who has far greater speed feats than Bane at the time of his fight with Kas'im (better than Bane anytime for that matter, as far as I know), which is how Bane was winning in the first place. I don't see how Kas'im stands a chance against one who not only rivals him in sheer technical skill, but also has greater use of force speed, if he couldn't even win against an opponent who only had greater speed (well up until he switched to a style Bane was unfamiliar with).

TK, Yoda has sent Sidious flying several feet--the sith lord who easily held both maul and Savage at bay. Savage himself has, in a state of rage, simutaneously overpowered both Dooku and Ventress (who in a similar state of rage overpowered Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time) with the force, and went on to do the same to Obi Wan and Anakin. He's also easily busted out of a jail cell with a mere force push. Maul has collapsed cave ceilings, destroyed a tunnel, force hurled a star ship, and consistently ragdolled Obi Wan with the force. And Yet Sidious can easily break through the defenses and directly overpower both Maul and Savage at the same time with TK, while OFF a dark side nexus.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
[B]No, provide some exact proof please. None of this "it's evident" shit on either side. Scans, sources, page numbers, etc. Anything else is just "IMO debating", and I'll call you both on it.

Haha. 😂

Listen, I get what you're trying to do and respect that. However you miss my point, I am not saying that an argument does not need to be made for Kas'im because everyone knows about him already, but simply pointing out that if Sidious 66 wants to try that approach with Yoda, the same line of logic mostly applies with Kas'im.

I think to a certain level, scans, page numbers etc aren't completely necessary, though they may become necessary depending on the parties involved.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Calm down.

I'm calm. Just saying.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is from an Insider article from 2002.

So we disregard it?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'm calm. Just saying.

So we disregard it?

No, we consider it in context. For someone who said twice I was putting words in their mouth, you find it okay to do the same to me, bro.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Haha. 😂

Listen, I get what you're trying to do and respect that. However you miss my point, I am not saying that an argument does not need to be made for Kas'im because everyone knows about him already, but simply pointing out that if Sidious 66 wants to try that approach with Yoda, the same line of logic mostly applies with Kas'im.

I think to a certain level, scans, page numbers etc aren't completely necessary, though they may become necessary depending on the parties involved.

I'm just being tough on both sides so I can't be arbitrarily accused of favoritism. This is my thread creation after all; trying to make sure it comes of some decent debating and not just "IMO I THINK ITS EVIDENT" stuff.

I know for my part, to be convinced that either is comparable, we need to you know... compare them. And that means using the evidence, not our gut feelings.

I didn't put words in your mouth, SM, I asked a question.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
I think the key difference is the length of both conflicts. The ToR Jedi had become accustomed to a period of relative peace, and taken completely by surprise by the Sith invasion, with about a few decades since to adjust to it. The NSW by comparison lasted for over a thousand years, and have seen approximately hundreds of generations of Jedi. The NSW would have presumably impacted the first generation of Jedi in a similar way that the war impacted the ToR Jedi. However, fast forward a few generations, and they would have began to made adjustments to Jedi training, their philosophy, expectations etc. Fast forward a few more generations and they would have begun to fine tune their practises as they continue to learn from war and mistakes they may have made. Fast forward a few more generations and they would have begun to perfect their practises in the face of war. Now fast forward hundreds of generations and you have the Army of Light, a time where peace has literally become a myth for the galaxy and the Jedi have lived for hundreds of years as a finely tuned machine of war. The ToR Jedi by comparison are still stuck in that first generation of Jedi that have just started learning how to wage war.

They're really not comparable.

That's all entirely speculative. There's absolutely no proof that this is the case. Whereas there is a ton of actual facts supporting the Swtor eras quality.

Its just as likely that generations of warfare caused a great amount of harm to the capabilities of the Jedi. Great Masters cut down before being able to pass on their knowledge, holocrons and lore lost in Sith attacks, inability to replace the losses with fresh and able Jedi, an order whittled and ground down to its meanest form. We've seen this occur in all other wars in Star Wars. The huge losses of knowledge from the destruction of Ossus, the Sack of Coruscant, the Jedi Purges etc. The way the Kotor and PT era Jedi became disillusioned and fractured and their had their will weaken through their wars. We can see this in the Brotherhood as well, they had lost their way and ignored the knowledge of the past. And it also just makes sense that an extremely long, costly war would diminish your armed forces, not sharpen them. That's how it works in the real world at least.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Everyone knows about Kas'im as well.

Not really. Kas'im is a fairly minor character. Yoda is one of the major characters both in the mythos and on this forum. There have been hundreds of debates featuring him.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I disagree. The idea that Yoda is better until proven false is a fallacy (argument from ignorance).

Yoda is a known quantity. When you bet on a race, you bet on the horse you know is fast.

BTW, SM, I'm not responding to your posts until you change your avatar. I don't like the way it's looking at me.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The source itself is emphasizing how all seven forms play out in combat and how to understand the "combat moves" of Yoda, then goes on to state that Yoda was perhaps the greatest lightsaber master of all time. Obviously it's a testament to Yoda's skill, which is a better accolade than Kas'im's.

Yoda's overall ability is reliant on both his Force prowess and lightsaber skill, and thus it makes sense that lightsaber technique would give good insight into his ability. It makes perfect sense for it to be a reference to his overall ability, and for it to say that the seven forms of combat would give you a clue of how to understand what makes him great.

And for the record, Kas'im basically gets the same accolade in PoD when he is referred to as the best living swordsman, and possibly the best ever. The difference is, Kas'im isn't simply reliant on potential hyperbole but his skill has also been substantiated with hard facts and figures.

As far as the force goes, Yoda was equal to Sidious with respect to force speed, who has far greater speed feats than Bane at the time of his fight with Kas'im (better than Bane anytime for that matter, as far as I know), which is how Bane was winning in the first place. I don't see how Kas'im stands a chance against one who not only rivals him in sheer technical skill, but also has greater use of force speed, if he couldn't even win against an opponent who only had greater speed (well up until he switched to a style Bane was unfamiliar with).

Not true. Bane actually blitzed Sirak while he was prepared in the heat of battle, and Sirak was someone who's connection to the Force was arguably the greatest in the entire BoD with the exception of Bane, given that he was mistakenly believed by some to be the Sith'ari. The Jedi that Sidious blitzed were not known for being remarkably powerful, and had not yet sunk into a battle like state of mind as Sirak had in his fight with Bane.

Bane also was an absolute lightsaber prodigy, and had learnt how to counter every single one of Kas'im's moves from their many hours of sparring together.

TK, Yoda has sent Sidious flying several feet--the sith lord who easily held both maul and Savage at bay. Savage himself has, in a state of rage, simutaneously overpowered both Dooku and Ventress (who in a similar state of rage overpowered Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time) with the force, and went on to do the same to Obi Wan and Anakin. He's also easily busted out of a jail cell with a mere force push. Maul has collapsed cave ceilings, destroyed a tunnel, force hurled a star ship, and consistently ragdolled Obi Wan with the force. And Yet Sidious can easily break through the defenses and directly overpower both Maul and Savage at the same time with TK, while OFF a dark side nexus.

Yawn. None of that compares to Bane's attack on Kas'im and the majority of those TK attacks that you reference are often the product of a surprise manoeuvre so we can't say that they were being properly defended in each of the instances. Plus a lot of that is from that stupid cartoon with its unrealistic portrayals of the characters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]That's all entirely speculative. There's absolutely no proof that this is the case. Whereas there is a ton of actual facts supporting the Swtor eras quality.

This is all speculation bro. You can't definitely prove anything. The best we can do is apply reason to find out what is more probable, and it is simply more likely that war that lasts hundreds of generations would have a greater impact than one that lasted a mere few decades.

Its just as likely that generations of warfare caused a great amount of harm to the capabilities of the Jedi. Great Masters cut down before being able to pass on their knowledge, holocrons and lore lost in Sith attacks, inability to replace the losses with fresh and able Jedi, an order whittled and ground down to its meanest form. We've seen this occur in all other wars in Star Wars. The huge losses of knowledge from the destruction of Ossus, the Sack of Coruscant, the Jedi Purges etc. The way the Kotor and PT era Jedi became disillusioned and fractured and their had their will weaken through their wars. We can see this in the Brotherhood as well, they had lost their way and ignored the knowledge of the past. And it also just makes sense that an extremely long, costly war would diminish your armed forces, not sharpen them. That's how it works in the real world at least.

Such a thing as survival of the fittest and the will of the Force, bro. War serves its purpose in separating the weak from the strong, and the will of the Force itself seems to favour those with stronger connections to the Force with greater destinies.

Regarding knowledge, Jedi combat favours the more basic techniques for the most part, which is why we rarely see much more than telekinesis being useful in combat, so lost knowledge probably wouldn't be that big of a deal, and the stuff that was truly beneficial to combat would likely be being taught to the entire order (or the more advanced staff just to the masters) rather than being kept hidden away in storage, so it's likely the most beneficial pieces of knowledge would have remained simply via widespread tutelage of the techniques.

It simply makes more sense that the NSW Jedi would have been molded into a collective force that was more suited for Jedi vs Sith warfare than the ToR Jedi, and that their superior training and way of thinking, when combined with their battle experience and survivale of the fittest/will of the Force, would have made them the most effective fighters the Jedi had ever known.

Not really. Kas'im is a fairly minor character. Yoda is one of the major characters both in the mythos and on this forum. There have been hundreds of debates featuring him.

Anyone who matters.*

Not to mention Yoda himself is well known but not all of the obscure feats or descriptions are, which is largely what Sidious 66 is referring to.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, SM, I'm not responding to your posts until you change your avatar. I don't like the way it's looking at me.

The avatar is from a terrible video game series by name of Resident Evils.

I have it, in terms of saber ability:

BM Raskta Lsu
Kas'im
Bane
Yoda
BM Sarro Ja
Mace Windu

Force ability:

Zannah
Bane
Yoda

Overall ability:

Bane
Zannah
Yoda
Kas'im
Mace Windu

Haven't read Revan, or played the KotOR games in a long time, so I'm not really sure how powerful Revan is or how he stacks up next to Bane or Yoda but I would imagine Mace is the weak link in this thread.

Well heres a bit about Revans abilities. Watch the vid at the specified time for a good feat:

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, pretty much. Not all at the same time, but if you watch the video at around 5.50:

YouTube video

Its obvious he's pulling multiple ones at a time. Plus I don't believe it matters. Pulling them in succession is still an amazing feat.

"Veela and the other two survivors scrambled back into the passage near the chamber entrance, ducking out of sight around the corner to regroup. A second later a trio of grenades skittered across the floor, bouncing and rolling to a stop near the base of the sarcophagus.

The instant before they detonated, Revan reached out with the Force and hurled the heavy stone lid of the sarcophagus toward the grenades. It acted as a shield, absorbing the worst of the blast before exploding into pebbles and dust."

He threw it in an instant.

Revan easily absorbs and returns a charged burst of Force Lightning. Note that the lightning is powerful to instantly incinerate Nyriss even after tearing through her Force Shield:

"A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.
Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.
“I am Revan reborn,” he said to Nyriss. “And before me you are nothing.”
Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash."

Revan unleashes the Light and Dark Sides in perfect balance:

"The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready.
Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward."

Originally posted by Nephthys

Yoda is a known quantity. When you bet on a race, you bet on the horse you know is fast.

Instead of you know, educating yourself on both horses and confirming which is truly faster?

You lose a lot of money at the track, bro?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I didn't put words in your mouth, SM, I asked a question.

You're so hostile.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
BTW, SM, I'm not responding to your posts until you change your avatar. I don't like the way it's looking at me.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
The avatar is from a terrible video game series by name of Resident Evils.

It's official; you suck.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hero of Tython and Barsen'thor shit on any Bane-era Jedi

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hoth, Raskta Lsu and Sarro Ja were comparable to the Knight and Consular. And that's only the Jedi that we know of.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's official; you suck.

😂

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Plus a lot of that is from that stupid cartoon with its unrealistic portrayals of the characters.

The "stupid cartoon" is Official Star Wars canon, on par with the movies themselves. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hoth, Raskta Lsu and Sarro Ja were comparable to the Knight and Consular. And that's only the Jedi that we know of.

It would surprise me.

Greatly. 😐

Maybe I underestimate the ToR guys but I'm guessing you're also underestimating the NSW guys. I mean, we have few hard facts on Hoth for instance but he seemed to be something like a force of nature, defeating swarms of Sith Lords at once singlehandedly. Raskta and Sarro also clearly had skills, and the master in Darkness Shared was also pretty amazing. Haven't read Knight Errant but there might be someone there. But clearly we don't have much to go on with the Jedi of that era in general, as there isn't that much material on it and the Sith have been the clear focal point.