Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Arguments submitted without proof can be dismissed without proof. I'm not omitting Astor from proving up either. Both of you if you intend to debate should muscle up some evidence. Nothing is simply 'evident' unless you're debating Superman versus Stephen Hawkings or the Hulk versus a gerbil in a speed bag.
I can't make an argument unless I have more to go on, and so far I don't.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I believe Yoda was referenced as one of the most skilled swordsman in jedi history,
What can you prove?
In any case, being one of the most skilled swordsmen in Jedi history doesn't preclude him from being challenged by others.
so I don't see how Kas'im as an edge on him in terms of skill.
Argument from (personal) incredulity (divine fallacy, appeal to common sense) – I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false.
Not to mention Yoda is a power house and can apply his skill with enough speed to match Sidious blade to blade.
Right, and so can Mace, etc. They are all top duelists.
But their place as top duelists in their era doesn't preclude comparable duelists from existing in other eras. In fact, the idea that they are exceptionally or even marginally better than all the millions/billions/trillions of duelists that came before them is the least defensible logical position here.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I can't make an argument unless I have more to go on, and so far I don't.
I've admonished you on this multiple times now; either you have a stance that you can provide instances of, or you don't have an argument. You can't just let everyone else educate you in your ignorance and then go "LOLNOPE". That's not fair debating.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What about the others you brought up?
Raskta Lsu had been the greatest swordsmen of the Army of Light and had more Sith kills to her name than anybody else at the time, and was receiving the benefits of Battle Meditation that was described as literally doubling her powers. In her battle with Bane her speed is so great that she's described as seemingly attacking him from in front of him, behind him, and from both sides, all at the same time. I'll try and get the quotes later.
Farfalla likewise was one of the more notable Jedi masters of the era and also having his powers being amped to incredible levels. He was by no means simply a swordsman, being the primary Force offensive of his team, and yet his lightsaber skills are described as being nearly perfect.
It's worth noting that the Jedi of the NSW were the most martial order of Jedi ever, and the Army of Light was that era of Jedi at their absolute pinnacle.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Raskta Lsu had been the greatest swordsmen of the Army of Light and had more Sith kills to her name than anybody else at the time, and was receiving the benefits of Battle Meditation that was described as literally doubling her powers. In her battle with Bane her speed is so great that she's described as seemingly attacking him from in front of him, behind him, and from both sides, all at the same time. I'll try and get the quotes later.Farfalla likewise was one of the more notable Jedi masters of the era and also having his powers being amped to incredible levels. He was by no means simply a swordsman, being the primary Force offensive of his team, and yet his lightsaber skills are described as being nearly perfect.
It's worth noting that the Jedi of the NSW were the most martial order of Jedi ever, and the Army of Light was that era of Jedi at their absolute pinnacle.
👆
Some direct proof would do you good. Otherwise, this amounts to little more than curiosity.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What can you prove?In any case, being one of the most skilled swordsmen in Jedi history doesn't preclude him from being challenged by others.
You're putting words in my mouth.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Argument from (personal) incredulity (divine fallacy, appeal to common sense) – I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false.
He made a claim without backing it up, which was that Kas'im has an edge in skill. Sorry for not taking his word for granted.
If you have more to provide on the subject, then do so.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Right, and so can Mace, etc. They are all top duelists.
Right. So if someone claims another person is comparable, then it's there burden to prove, especially if the characters are not as well known.
Mace and Yoda have far more exposure, so it would be easier if the person arguing for the characters with less exposure to start first.
In the meantime, stop putting words in my mouth.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I've admonished you on this multiple times now; either you have a stance that you can provide instances of, or you don't have an argument. You can't just let everyone else educate you in your ignorance and then go "LOLNOPE". That's not fair debating.
Who said I was trying to debate? I put "Lol." And that was more towards Kasim being comparable to Yoda (sorry for not clarifying). Not only does Yoda have comparable skill, but he has displayed more raw force power and mastery, which is how Kasim was losing to a less skilled individual.
BTW, there was a time about a few months back when someone said Yoda was better than Kun, and your response was "lolno." You have a habit of accusing others of the same stuff you do. Why is that?
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
What can you prove?
Actually Yoda was said to be "perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi order has ever seen."
"To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen." -Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat
Again, why should I believe Kasim has an advantage in skill? Do I not have a right to question it?
I think the gap in Force ability between Yoda and Kas'im is closer than the gap in skill personally. Bane's attack on Kas'im is on par with anything we've seen from Yoda in proper canon imo, and Kas'im defended against it (and lightsaber combat being his clear specialty, his speed and reflexes etc in combat is likely where his Force ability is at its best). On the other hand, Kas'im is described as literally mastering every form (all 7, Jar'kai, doublebladed) in half the time it would take the average Jedi to master one, and then spent decades further developing his skills, and literally practiced on a day to day basis. Yoda by comparison is never confirmed to be a high level master of every form, and we know that he rarely kept up with his skills from numerous sources (Power of the Jedi for example states that nobody had even seen him use a lightsaber for years, circa TPM).
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually Yoda was said to be "perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi order has ever seen.""To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen." -Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat
Again, why should I believe Kasim has an advantage in skill? Do I not have a right to question it?
We don't know that is a reference to skill alone, or simply overall ability. Kas'im has direct accolades for his skills.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Don't really see it bud.
Millions of members, rediscovered knowledge of the first Jedi, highly militaristic and well trained, the greatest number of skilled combatants of any era known (I counted), Hero of Tython and Barsen'thor shit on any Bane-era Jedi, titled 'The Jedi Renaissance.'
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also to weigh in, I do think that you're being unfair Moose. Everyone here does know all about how skilled Yoda is. Sidious 66 shouldn't have to prove what we already know to be true. Asking him to is just being pedantic.
Everyone knows about Kas'im as well. It's a lot easier to make vague references to what people remember about Yoda/the current status quo than actually presenting the argument and applying it directly to this thread, and it is entirely fair for Moose to call him out on that $h1t. There's a lot of PT bias going on and we should attempt to root it out without compromise.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Everyone knows about Kas'im as well. It's a lot easier to make vague references to what people remember about Yoda/the current status quo than actually presenting the argument and applying it directly to this thread, and it is entirely fair for Moose to call him out on that $h1t. There's a lot of PT bias going on and we should attempt to root it out without compromise.
No, provide some exact proof please. None of this "it's evident" shit on either side. Scans, sources, page numbers, etc. Anything else is just "IMO debating", and I'll call you both on it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also to weigh in, I do think that you're being unfair Moose. Everyone here does know all about how skilled Yoda is. Sidious 66 shouldn't have to prove what we already know to be true. Asking him to is just being pedantic.
I disagree. The idea that Yoda is better until proven false is a fallacy (argument from ignorance).
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're putting words in my mouth.He made a claim without backing it up, which was that Kas'im has an edge in skill. Sorry for not taking his word for granted.
If you have more to provide on the subject, then do so.
Right. So if someone claims another person is comparable, then it's there burden to prove, especially if the characters are not as well known.
Mace and Yoda have far more exposure, so it would be easier if the person arguing for the characters with less exposure to start first.
In the meantime, stop putting words in my mouth.
Calm down.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually Yoda was said to be "perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi order has ever seen.""To the uninitiated, lightsaber combat can seem like a confusing blur of swipes and blade clashes, but on close examination, the secrets of the Jedi Knights become clear. To understand the combat of these warriors, we must delve into the sacred history of the fabled Seven Forms of Jedi lightsaber combat and look at how these have played out in the Star Wars saga. Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen." -Insider #62: Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat
Again, why should I believe Kasim has an advantage in skill? Do I not have a right to question it?
This is from an Insider article from 2002.