Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I just imagine Makashi being the competitive duelist' form of choice. It certainly was for Dooku, and probably was integral in the techniques used by older characters such as Tulak Hord. In fact, the sheer amount of confirmed canon characters who don't use Makashi outside of the PT era is surprising, given its description as the pinnacle of lightsaber to lightsaber combat and an archaic tradition in Dooku's own time.I seem to remember the very first Fightsaber article to be released (before the modified version which was later hosted on SW.com) indicated rather out of the blue that Exar Kun was a Makashi user. This was funny for two reasons: Kun predated the forms by many years, and Kun pretty much cleaved and smashed everything with his rage-induced strength, making him a better candidate for say, Form V.
Kun doesn't pre-date Form II...it's origins are at least as old as the Great Hyperspace War.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Oh, but people's forms are often established after their original source material don't they?
No, the point is that when Kun was conceived and shown in media, lightsaber forms simply did not exist. In fact, in the films they don't exist either; they are extrapolated from what little dueling we see in AotC by outside experts and then later adopted by EU as a whole.
From an objective standpoint, there's no reason to assume Kun knows Makashi despite their claims, which have since been omitted in all reproductions of the material. I think a lot of the forms have become foolishly misunderstood since then, such as the Niman/Jar'Kai confusion, the original confusion with Shen/Djem So (they're essentially two different forms now), Stover's handling of Vaapad being completely different from Juyo, which it is based on, Makashi can't do shit to blaster bolts (thanks KotOR II) and sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY (thanks again Stover), and then you have The Cestus Deception telling us Form 1 is this primal animalistic form and Kit Fisto is a badass for using it, when it was conceived of as a beginner's form and predates lightsaber usage in the mythos.
This all gives me a headache.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
You said that Exar Kun was not the weakest link on his side, which implies that he is greater than one of his teammates.And yes, I would agree to the notion that Exar Kun is most definitely a better duelist than Vitiate, who doesn't even know how to properly hold a weapon.
Now that, I dont agree with, Vitiate is the emperor of the 'true(I use that word loosely) sith empire, and well I don't believe the other sith lords just 'gave' him the throne to the sith empire, and while he may not be a accomplished and prodigious duelist like Exar Kun, and well, I'm sure a being in his position of power would not be foolish enough to neglect his lightsaber training IMO.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose👆
Yes, fancy twirls imply mastery.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasypersonaly I can't picture him having spent much time if any training in sabers. he was mind dominating sith lords before he had pubes, with that kind of power at such a young age it doesn't seem like he would have had much use for it or felt like he needed it, especially with his focus being on more esoteric aspects of the force.
Now that, I dont agree with, Vitiate is the emperor of the 'true(I use that word loosely) sith empire, and well I don't believe the other sith lords just 'gave' him the throne to the sith empire, and while he may not be a accomplished and prodigious duelist like Exar Kun, and well, I'm sure a being in his position of power would not be foolish enough to neglect his lightsaber training IMO.
Originally posted by Raptor22
personaly I can't picture him having spent much time if any training in sabers. he was mind dominating sith lords before he had pubes, with that kind of power at such a young age it doesn't seem like he would have had much use for it or felt like he needed it, especially with his focus being on more esoteric aspects of the force.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No, the point is that when Kun was conceived and shown in media, lightsaber forms simply did not exist. In fact, in the films they don't exist either; they are extrapolated from what little dueling we see in AotC by outside experts and then later adopted by EU as a whole.From an objective standpoint, there's no reason to assume Kun knows Makashi despite their claims, which have since been omitted in all reproductions of the material. I think a lot of the forms have become foolishly misunderstood since then, such as the Niman/Jar'Kai confusion, the original confusion with Shen/Djem So (they're essentially two different forms now), Stover's handling of Vaapad being completely different from Juyo, which it is based on, Makashi can't do shit to blaster bolts (thanks KotOR II) and sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY (thanks again Stover), and then you have The Cestus Deception telling us Form 1 is this primal animalistic form and Kit Fisto is a badass for using it, when it was conceived of as a beginner's form and predates lightsaber usage in the mythos.
This all gives me a headache.
I agree there has been a lot of confusion and misunderstanding when it comes to the various forms and it is very annoying.
This bit here though:
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Makashi can't do shit to blaster bolts (thanks KotOR II) and sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY (thanks again Stover)
I don't see any problem with those. Makashi was designed specifically for lightsabre dueling and only dueling. It makes sense that it wouldn't be so good against blaster fire as it's not designed for that.
The "sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY" bit also makes sense. Makashi focuses heavily on precision moves. Precision moves by their very nature are meant to be small and small moves can't build up a lot of momentum.
As I've said before this doesn't mean a Makashi user is helpless against "KINECTIK ENERGY." Say you're a Makashi user and I'm a Djem So user, it's not that you can't beat me, you certainly can. It just means you can't let the duel become a head-to-head slugfest. There are other ways you can win, all it really means is I have one more option available than you.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Now that, I dont agree with, Vitiate is the emperor of the 'true(I use that word loosely) sith empire, and well I don't believe the other sith lords just 'gave' him the throne to the sith empire, and while he may not be a accomplished and prodigious duelist like Exar Kun, and well, I'm sure a being in his position of power would not be foolish enough to neglect his lightsaber training IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QitMTZrZ0g
I think this video gives a good analysis of his lightsabre skills (7:47 for the relevant point).
The fact that both are brain bugs entitely absent from the creation of the form is the big issue. Also, blasters predate Form II. If Form dictated one's deflection capabilities, Kit Fisto would have died at Geonosis.
Regarding kinetic energy, Dooku routinely one hand blocks powerful attacks from major fighters in the series and is rarely pushed back. It's a generalisation of the form that is also stupid because brute strength swinging is more common and older than refined technique.
Originally posted by chilled monkeyThe "sucks against KINECTIK ENERGY" bit also makes sense. Makashi focuses heavily on precision moves. Precision moves by their very nature are meant to be small and small moves can't build up a lot of momentum.
As I've said before this doesn't mean a Makashi user is helpless against "KINECTIK ENERGY." Say you're a Makashi user and I'm a Djem So user, it's not that you can't beat me, you certainly can. It just means you can't let the duel become a head-to-head slugfest. There are other ways you can win, all it really means is I have one more option available than you..
Finally someone gets it.
I'm getting really fed up of the "LULZ Dooku loses because Juyo has even more Kinetic energy than Djem So!!" type argument consistently used against Count Dooku.
It all began from 1 stupid line in the ROTS novel which people have completely blown out of proportion and context.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Finally someone gets it.I'm getting really fed up of the "LULZ Dooku loses because Juyo has even more Kinetic energy than Djem So!!" type argument consistently used against Count Dooku.
It all began from 1 stupid line in the ROTS novel which people have completely blown out of proportion and context.
Thanks.
I agree it's very annoying how misinterpreted and exaggerated that line has become.
Lightsaber forms have always been incredibly dumb. Frankly, I've always thought each Jedi should craft their own style to suit their needs like Vader did.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That fancy twirl implies sophistication, Vitiate seems to have good grasp of lightsaber dueling arts by this time.
😂
Originally posted by ares834
Lightsaber forms have always been incredibly dumb.
Beg your pardon but how so?
Originally posted by ares834
Frankly, I've always thought each Jedi should craft their own style to suit their needs like Vader did.
And how did Vader do that? He took the style he'd mastered as Anakin (Djem So) and modified it by adding techniques from other forms as well as "tweaking" said techniques.
I mean, how are they supposed to "craft their own style to suit their needs" without a platform to build on? They need something to start with.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How come Vitiate was able to duel HoT with a lightsaber while possessing Kira and himself?
Because he was at least competent with a lightsabre. No one's claiming he didn't know one end from the other or anything. He just wasn't a particularly brilliant duelist.
Even in his final battle with the Hero of Tython he relied mostly on his Force powers.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon but how so?
Because they are so damn limited. Take a real martial art like say Song Moo Kwan, it's not limited to basically one aspect. Each of its practitioners can create their own variant of it. They can use more finesse and go for pressure points, they can simply prefer to use strong attacks, they can use flurries of fast attacks, etc...
It's not limited to one aspect such as speed, strength, defense, etc like the lightsaber forms are. Yes, there are many different styles of marital arts but they can't be categorized by something as simple or rudimentary as this one is strong but slow or this one is defensive their difference rather lie in the stances and techniques used.
Originally posted by ares834
Because they are so damn limited. Take a real martial art like say Song Moo Kwan, it's not limited to basically one aspect. Each of its practitioners can create their own variant of it. They can use more finesse and go for pressure points, they can simply prefer to use strong attacks, they can use flurries of fast attacks, etc...It's not limited to one aspect such as speed, strength, defense, etc like the lightsaber forms are. Yes, there are many different styles of marital arts but they can't be categorized by something as simple or rudimentary as this one is strong but slow or this one is defensive their difference rather lie in the stances and techniques used.
I see, that makes sense.
Thanks.