Originally posted by Lord Stark
The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force says it would be nigh impossible for a Niman user to defeat a Makashi practitioner. And its not like Exar Kun outclasses Dooku in raw bladework.
Does it differentiate between scholarly watered down Niman and mastered Niman? The form was considered a master's form in the Old Republic era. Fast forward to the PT era, and it's changed to be a quick study so that bookworms can avoid spending too much time training.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Does it differentiate between scholarly watered down Niman and mastered Niman? The form was considered a master's form in the Old Republic era. Fast forward to the PT era, and it's changed to be a quick study so that bookworms can avoid spending too much time training.
No it doesn't. But Cin Draalig does state that mastery of this form can only be attained after 10 years. Niman is just naturally weak against Makashi because it doesn't incorporate it into its form at all.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Tell that to Vodo.
Who lost primarily due to his arrogance in thinking a cane could withstand Kun's lightsaber. Both times he lost he lost because of the dumb cane being cut in half. Would have been way cooler if Vodo came out like
"Its been awhile since an opponent made me use this"-Whips out lightsaber.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not true. If you give someone with Sidious' power and speed but no saber training he's going to get curb stomped in a raw saber match with someone like Dooku. Sidious is amazing because his mastery of the saber is unreal.
I didn't say 'no saber training' I said any of the saber forms. But I do think its true that speed, strength, superior power and force senses trump skill any day. Skill is only useful if you actually have the opportunity to outduel your opponent. With Sidious' speed, Dooku will constantly be pushed to the edge just to block his attacks. With Sidious' strength, Dooku will be straining and pushed back further even if he blocks the attack. With Sidious' senses, he'll know every move Dooku is about to make and be able to cloud Dooku of similar knowledge. Superior power generally is better than superior skill in a lightsaber duel.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Who lost primarily due to his arrogance in thinking a cane could withstand Kun's lightsaber. Both times he lost he lost because of the dumb cane being cut in half. Would have been way cooler if Vodo came out like
"Its been awhile since an opponent made me use this"-Whips out lightsaber.
Those weren't the only times Kun beat him, but certainly both times Kun overpowered Vodo. Given that Savage can rawr and knock the Count back, I'd wager Niman is not a handicap in Kun's case. Regarding Revan, he liberally uses the Force, so that off-sets his refinement weakness.
But they may be the only exceptions.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say 'no saber training' I said any of the saber forms. But I do think its true that speed, strength, superior power and force senses trump skill any day. Skill is only useful if you actually have the opportunity to outduel your opponent. With Sidious' speed, Dooku will constantly be pushed to the edge just to block his attacks. With Sidious' strength, Dooku will be straining and pushed back further even if he blocks the attack. With Sidious' senses, he'll know every move Dooku is about to make and be able to cloud Dooku of similar knowledge. Superior power generally is better than superior skill in a lightsaber duel.
You act as though Dooku doesn't have monstrous strength. He broke Kenobi's ribs by just throwing him, he blocked Skywalker and Kenobi's sabers with one hand, he was able to saber lock with Yoda himself. I am pretty sure its outright stated in one source material that a superior swordsman will defeat a superior force user.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
You act as though Dooku doesn't have monstrous strength. He broke Kenobi's ribs by just throwing him, he blocked Skywalker and Kenobi's sabers with one hand, he was able to saber lock with Yoda himself. I am pretty sure its outright stated in one source material that a superior swordsman will defeat a superior force user.
No, I just remember Dooku getting tossed across a room by a single strike from the man who Sidious blocked with one hand. If Sidious wants to be, he can be stronger than Dooku pretty easily.
Kas'im says that a superior swordsman can beat a stronger force user. But he also says that the Force is the real key to victory in any engagement. Which as Intrepid pointed out, Bane proved when he was kicking his ass through raw power.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Those weren't the only times Kun beat him, but certainly both times Kun overpowered Vodo. Given that Savage can rawr and knock the Count back, I'd wager Niman is not a handicap in Kun's case. Regarding Revan, he liberally uses the Force, so that off-sets his refinement weakness.But they may be the only exceptions.
When did Kun beat him when he had a lightsaber? I would disagree with that considering Dooku didn't anticipate Savage's strength. He's fine with raw power otherwise Anakin would have dominated him everytime they fought.
1. Can we put an end to the argument that Sion getting repeatedly struck down by Meetra is a poor reflection of his skill?
He doesn't have the same need to defend himself as others do simply because he's not as vulnerable as they are. Not defending himself adequately would only be a poor reflection of his skills if he had the same defensive priorities as other Jedi/Sith, but he doesn't.
Plus, KotOR 2 Meetra is an entirely different animal to the delevelled one we see in Revan. Clearly Drew didn't have the respect for the KotOR 2 source material that he should have. But as per KotOR 2, Meetra has a far more impressive resume than Windu or Dooku.
And also, canonically Sion was in love with The Exile, so there's that as well.
2. Shatterpoint wouldn't have any physical advantage over Sion at all. Mace simply cannot do anything above and beyond "killing" Sion, and that is exactly what Sion cheats: death. Shatterppint would only work via a situation, which is simply unlikely to happen.
3. Mace and Dooku are really not that impressive in the grand scheme of things. Sion has achieved far greater heights than almost anyone, let alone these two, and Meetra's exploits in KotOR 2 was the stuff of legends. Team 1 is extremely outmatched here. It's only movie bias which would lead people to think otherwise.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
1. Can we put an end to the argument that Sion getting repeatedly struck down by Meetra is a poor reflection of his skill?
Not really considering his only other feat is ambushing Lonna Vash.
He doesn't have the same need to defend himself as others do simply because he's not as vulnerable as they are. Not defending himself adequately would only be a poor reflection of his skills if he had the same defensive priorities as other Jedi/Sith, but he doesn't.
A ridiculous notion considering it takes power for him to regen.
Plus, KotOR 2 Meetra is an entirely different animal to the delevelled one we see in Revan. Clearly Drew didn't have the respect for the KotOR 2 source material that he should have. But as per KotOR 2, Meetra has a far more impressive resume than Windu or Dooku.
Not really because she defeated Nihilus while he was at his weakness, talked Sion into accepting death, and...Kriea doesn't really have the chops to suggest she's all that amazing.
And also, canonically Sion was in love with The Exile, so there's that as well.
I have brought this up before. I was countered; he stated multiple times he was willing to kill her because he loves her.
2. Shatterpoint wouldn't have any physical advantage over Sion at all. Mace simply cannot do anything above and beyond "killing" Sion, and that is exactly what Sion cheats: death. Shatterppint would only work via a situation, which is simply unlikely to happen.
Yeah Sion hasn't survived getting his head chopped off so that doesn't really matter to me.
3. Mace and Dooku are really not that impressive in the grand scheme of things. Sion has achieved far greater heights than almost anyone, let alone these two, and Meetra's exploits in KotOR 2 was the stuff of legends. Team 1 is extremely outmatched here. It's only movie bias which would lead people to think otherwise.
Wow. I won't even justify that with a response.