Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir

Indeed. In the TPM novelization Sidious is seething with rage when he learns of Maul's fate, and thinks that those responsible "will be held accountable". And he thinks to himself that another apprentice will be hard to find.

There is no mention of of "oh well who cares now I have Anakin".

I don't know who introduced this "Maul was just a disposable assassin" idea in the EU, but everyone was way off base when they ran with it. Maul was always meant to surpass Sidious in the RoT tradition. And if not for Obi-Wan he probably would have succeeded too.

Speaking of Sidious and the RoT, that's another one the EU ****ed up. The EU made it seem as if Sidious didn't care about the RoT and wanted to feed on the galaxy and rule forever as some sort of Dark Side god. Again, that idea came out of nowhere. In the films Sidious is completely devoted to the RoT.

"Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!".

Originally posted by Unbowed
Maul was always meant to surpass Sidious in the RoT tradition. And if not for Obi-Wan he probably would have succeeded too.

Not sure where you got this from...

Which part?

Both.

Originally posted by Emperor NewGuy
?

Maul had the potential to overcome Palpatine and probably would have done so if it wasn't for Kenob.

And where is this stated?

Commentary from and around TCW does indeed support the notion that Maul was a legitimate apprenticed trained by Palpatine to eventually replace him.

?v=-7hBZNsPnyg

Poor guy has a long road ahead of him, though. 😂

I still don't know why ant keeps using Maul vs Windu and secura as a feat, when him holding off Sidious is far more impressive.

IIRC, after Vader's injuries on Mustusfar, Lucas puts Vader in the same category as Maul and Dooku, seemingly suggesting that none of them had the potential to surpass him, and also stating that the Emperor was constantly looking for an apprentice more powerful than himself (potential-wise, of course). So I don't think it was in Lucas' vision for any of them to have the potential to surpass/replace him except for Anakin until his defeat at the hands of Kenobi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
IIRC, after Vader's injuries on Mustusfar, Lucas puts Vader in the same category as Maul and Dooku, seemingly suggesting that none of them had the potential to surpass him, and also stating that the Emperor was constantly looking for an apprentice more powerful than himself (potential-wise, of course). So I don't think it was in Lucas' vision for any of them to have the potential to surpass/replace him except for Anakin until his defeat at the hands of Kenobi.

I think that's more saying that at their peak, they were all quite a ways off sidious.

Not that they didn't have potential.

Sure maybe Dooku didn't, but maul was young and had a lot of time left.

Originally posted by Selenial
I think that's more saying that at their peak, they were all quite a ways off sidious.

Not that they didn't have potential.

Sure maybe Dooku didn't, but maul was young and had a lot of time left.

No. He was talking about potential when he mentioned this.

Edit:

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

So unless you think Anakin=Sidious (lol) then Lucas is clearly talking about potential.

Originally posted by Selenial
I think that's more saying that at their peak, they were all quite a ways off sidious.

Not that they didn't have potential.

Sure maybe Dooku didn't, but maul was young and had a lot of time left.

Like Ares mention, he had to have been talking about potential when using the term "more powerful" and not realized power, considering that Sidious was perhaps the most powerful force user of his era.

But I could be remembering the quote wrong.

Originally posted by ares834
"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

So unless you think Anakin=Sidious (lol) then Lucas is clearly talking about potential.

👆

"He wasn't what he was supposed to become"

I think this means that Maul suffered the same fate, and thus never became more powerful than Sidious, and Dooku never embraced the Dark Side fully and never unlocked his true potential.

lol

No. Vader was like Maul and Dooku in the fact that he wasn't as "strong" (potential strength here) as Palpatine.

My impression is that Maul was a legitimate successor, but only in the respect that he'd carry on the RoT if Sidious died. Maul never possessed the potential to surpass Sidious and Sidious never expected him to. He was a place-holder, like Dooku. Sidious was constantly looking for someone stronger but if he couldn't find anyone, eh, they'd do.

I'm not sure that interpretation is correct.

Anakin was different in the sense that his potential was far, far greater than any other being's. Maul and Dooku were, much like Yoda, Mace, Kenobi and Sidious himself, just "regular" force users, potential-wise. While there are some that are stronger than others, everyone is in the same ballpark(again, potential-wise). Anakin was "superhuman", he was the Chosen One.

But after Mustafar, with more than half of his potential lost, he became just another Force user. Strong, yes, but the god-like power of the fully realized Chosen One that Sidious was licking his chops over was gone.

As for Sidious' apprentices surpassing him, I think the only one who didn't have it in him was Dooku. After 5-6 decades of being a Jedi and 13 more years of Sith apprenticeship, he still wasn't close to Sidious in power. I think he just wasn't capable of it.

Vader, even in his weakened state, was. The only thing that stopped him was that he was never able to kill the last sliver of goodness in himself. He was guilty, hated himself and never fully embraced the Dark side. His barriers were mental.

As for Maul, I think he is even more prodigious and talented than Anakin himself, though he lacks his god-like potential.
In his early 20s Maul was already more powerful than all but the strongest of Jedi - Yoda and Mace and probably Dooku. And even after losing half of his body/potential and being out of commission for 12+ years, he manages to become very powerful, extremely fast. Only days after being 'resurrected' he can already fight the likes of Obi-Wan and Ventress and gain the upper hand. A few months later he rivals Dooku in power, can fight Mace and Aalya Secura at the same time without being overwhelmed, and can even hang with Sidious for a short while.

If that's not impressive, I don't know what is. I have no doubt that if Maul didn't lose half of his body and was allowed to mature, he would surpass Sidious in power.

The interpretation is 100% correct. "[H]e was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" is a continuation of "he wasn't as strong as the Emperor". So Dooku and Maul were not as strong as Sidious. Sorry that Lucas contradicted your fan theory, but Maul does not have the potential to surpass Sidious.

Show me said comments then.

Originally posted by ares834
The interpretation is 100% correct. "[H]e was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" is a continuation of "he wasn't as strong as the Emperor". So Dooku and Maul were not as strong as Sidious. Sorry that Lucas contradicted your fan theory, but Maul does not have the potential to surpass Sidious.

....

You're missing the point.

"He was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" in that he wasn't as strong as the Emperor. But he was also "Like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" in that they didn't turn out like they were meant to.

What this statement is saying is that they never surpassed Sidious, but they were meant to.

Originally posted by Selenial
....

You're missing the point.

"" in that he wasn't as strong as the Emperor. But he was also "Like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" in that they didn't turn out like they were meant to.

What this statement is saying is that they never surpassed Sidious, but they were meant to.

Uh, no. "He was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" is a direct continuation of the line "he wasn't as strong as the Emperor"... I mean it's in the very same sentence. And since in this case Lucas's use of "strong" is synonymous with "potential" it means neither Maul nor Dooku had Sidious's potential.