Agree with everything in the above post.
I'd like to point out that the quote you used regarding Vader's power in comparison to Palpatine's was in fact a forgery that's been passed around for some time. Regardless, the real quote says basically the same thing, that Vader was 20% less than the Emperor, so I suppose it's not too important.
You don't need to be twice as fast as your opponent to fight a dude using 2 lighstabers with 1, you don't need to be 4 times as fast as Grievous to fight his 4 lightsabers either. Having more lightsabers doesn't make you faster or increase your striking speed, it just means you can attack from more angles at once or rapidly in succession. Furthermore if you watch RotS Grievous really does not attack from multiple angles at once tbh.
Also in RoT Bane was actually described as attacking from all angles when he was going berserk on Zannah and that dozen-sabers quote happened. 😉
The difference is that unlike normal duel wielders, Grievous can attack from all sides *at the same time*. Most that use dual blades attack with one blade after the other in rapid succession, he doesn't. The mechanics of his arms allow him to do things normal people can't.
Also, say what you want, but his speed was described as 20 strikes per second, you got the 5 per hand from that, not the other way around. Don't even try.
Yes, because Orbalisk Bane is extremely fast--Faster than Grievous, perhaps. His pure striking speed is probably lower though, since he's only attacking with one blade. And DoE Bane isn't as fast as he is.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah my mistake, didn't cross my mind. However I have read all three books, though I certainly don't remember everything in them, certainly not those lightning feats.I'd say your lack of knowledge on Dooku makes us even.
When you've exhaustively debated Bane as much as I have they stick in your mind.
I know lots about Dooku. I've heard this all before bro.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
1. Utterly unequaled? As I said, Dooku has plenty of speed feats.As Obi-Wan gave ground, Dooku quickened the pace. His every move was economical and elegant; [B]his lightsaber seemed to be everywhere.
Obi-Wan remembered Jocasta Nu telling him, With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. Now he could see what she meant. Unfortunately.Source: Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization
I won't push semantics and say everywhere > dozen places.[/b]
That's an obvious and classic hyperbolic exaggeration. That phrase is used to describe human-speed characters in books, it's not a legit speed feat. Plus look at the context, it's describing Dooku's skill, not his speed.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Concerning Grievous, I don't follow. Correct me if I'm wrong here but if four blades are coming at you at once, you are going to need to move much faster than if it were one. Because you need to deflect all four blades individually.Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense.
--Revenge of the Sith
Velocity = Speed.
So Obi-Wan's 1 lightsaber is literally 4 times as fast as any one of Grievous'? Don't be ridiculous. Obi-Wan deals with Grievous through skill, not sheer speed. In the same book Obi-Wan explicitly claims Grievous is faster than he is.
Yes, Grievous is increasing his speed there. But he's still only as fast as he would be if he only had one lightsaber. Which is 5 strikes her second only.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also, concerning dual-blade fencing, that is exactly what it does:Dual-blade fighters, whether classical Niman duelists or individuals applying the Jar'Kai tactic, were able to maintain a strong offense, as the speed of attack that two blades allowed would overwhelm most opponents.
--Wookieepedia
Wookieepedia isn't a source.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
All it took was a DS nexus for Dooku to fight as Yoda's near equal.
And Yoda being wounded at the start of the fight.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
2. Fair enough, however I don't recall that drexl feat, as I said before I feel as if Dooku refrains from putting too much power into his attacks because it would be wasteful, economy is the defining aspect of his style and he doesn't need to char corpses to kill them. So while Bane may be outwardly superior in this respect, I don't think its a deal closer by any respect.Techno beasts are obviously, extremely vulnerable to lightning. That doesn't sound like Bane's most impressive feat to me. And was that not when he was wearing his amplifying orbalisk armor. I assume the other feats brought up were not?
"Bane didn't take the time to revel in the fear of his fallen enemies. Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky." -RoT
"He didn't stay down, however. He sprang back to his feet, simultaneously drawing his lightsaber with his right hand as he sent a blast of lightning out from the fingertips of his left. The violet bolts should have incinerated all four of his targets on the balcony, yet again the strange power interfering with his ability to draw upon the Force hindered his efforts." - DoE
"The Iktotchi landed just as Bane unleashed a wave of crackling electricity that burned away the webbing of the tangle guns." - DoE
"He met their assault with an explosion of crackling energy that rippled out in a violet wave from his body at the center.
The incoming bolts were absorbed harmlessly into the ionic storm, the blasters themselves melted in the hands of their owners. The stench of burned flesh mingled with their screams of agony and the relentless, hammering song of the alarms, further feeding Bane's power." - DoE
"Turning her head to follow the course of the misguided bolt, Zannah saw where the first had hit the wall. The stone had been disintegrated in a fist-sized hole, revealing something that looked like bright red plastic beneath it." - DoE
It may not be a deal closer, but it's an important factor that Bane is clearly superior in. Dooku's never shown the ability to deflect lightning that powerful, so I can easily suggest Bane's lightning would eff him up. Plus didn't you suggest just yesterday that lightning is an indication of overall power?
Bane didn't disintegrate the technobeasts with lightning, he did it with TK:
"Bane thrust out with the Force, and a dozen of the oncoming creatures exploded into dust and tiny flecks of small, twisted metal........ That enemy vanquished, he used the Force to disintegrate two more advancing technobeasts" -RoT
Originally posted by Beniboybling
3. I find your lack of faith disturbing...
I find Quinlan Vos' lameness more disturbing.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
4. I don't doubt his capabilities, but as I said we lack comparable feats.
So Bane wins by default. excellent
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not that I said that, but metal is generally denser than steel and he collapsed but an archway not the whole building.And yes, yes he can. I don't know if you watch TCW but in that show Ventress attacks Dooku and after a brief duel Dooku just ragdolls her and takes her lightsabers. Obviously do do what he did there requires a bit of concentration though.
I think you mean stone, not steel and as I posted above, Bane is capable of disintegrating metal which is a great deal more powerful than merely breaking a part of a metal structure.
What? Bane did collapse the whole building. The archway falls and then the rest of the roof follows it. You say Dooku's feat is better but it blatantly isn't. The amount of force needed to utterly obliterate stone is more than is needed to simply break a metal object that's already supporting its own weight plus the amount he destroyed it vaaaaaaaastly more than Dooku did. All Dooku did was pull down a scaffold, Bane destroyed a massive building.
My point was that he clearly can't effortlessly dominate her like he did on Vjun.
Originally posted by NephthysA dozen blades at once suggests a dozen strikes at once. Grievous max is 20 strikes.
He was fast enough to appear to wield a dozen blades at once, which is undoubtedly > that shitty figure.
Do the math?
Considering Grievous' body allows him to forgo the limitations of the human anatomy, I'd say Grievous is probably capable of some of if not the most strikes per second in mythos.
Originally posted by NephthysMaybe you missed my post on pg36 but I already responded to this:
Which doesn't increase his striking speed, just how many attacks he can perform.
Concerning Grievous, I don't follow. Correct me if I'm wrong here but if four blades are coming at you at once, you are going to need to move much faster than if it were one. Because you need to deflect all four blades individually.
Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense.
--Revenge of the Sith
Velocity = Speed.
Also, concerning dual-blade fencing, that is exactly what it does:
Dual-blade fighters, whether classical Niman duelists or individuals applying the Jar'Kai tactic, were able to maintain a strong offense, as the speed of attack that two blades allowed would overwhelm most opponents.
--Wookieepedia
Originally posted by NewGuy01Its fake?!
Agree with everything in the above post.I'd like to point out that the quote you used regarding Vader's power in comparison to Palpatine's was in fact a forgery that's been passed around for some time. Regardless, the real quote says basically the same thing, that Vader was 20% less than the Emperor, so I suppose it's not too important.
Do you have proof of this? Not exactly saying that I doubt you but considering that quote is up on Wookieepedia is quite a big thing.
Do you perhaps have the original at hand?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Its fake?!Do you have proof of this? Not exactly saying that I doubt you but considering that quote is up on Wookieepedia is quite a big thing.
Do you perhaps have the original at hand?
I had a link to the quote's article, but it was on a website that recently became a pay-to-read type thing, so I can no longer access it. It was originally found by a member who posted it in the Battle Bar a while back, so it's possible one of the members saved the quote itself?
Either way, the two quotes basically mean the same thing, so it's largely irrelevant. The one that you posted earlier is definitely a fake, though.
I had a link to the quote's article, but it was on a website that recently became a pay-to-read type thing, so I can no longer access it. It was originally found by a member who posted it in the Battle Bar a while back, so it's possible one of the members saved the quote itself?
Either way, the two quotes basically mean the same thing, so it's largely irrelevant. The one that you posted earlier is definitely a fake, though.
I'm actively attempting to find it. I think the article was called "The Final Battle" or something along those lines, and I believe it was in Vanity Fair magazine, though I could be incorrect. The quote was actually addressing Luke and why Palpatine was so eager to apprentice him, rather than Vader specifically.
I found it! Took like an hour of searching, but it was worth it. 😛
“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”
-George Lucas, "The Last Battle" Vanity Fair Magazine