Quinlan got dominated by pretty much every top tier guy he faced, and the Quinlan that Agen was beating up was conflicted as hell, for what it's worth. How Darach came across in the cinematic was far more impressive imo, he was for a good while dominating two far more game opponents simultaneously and showing some very high level combat skills. Darach solidly.
Originally posted by appletoniaGoing by this logic Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are trash fighters because of how they "came across" in the films. Vos doesn't look any less badass in the way he fights, and that has never been an important aspect of feats. Choreography =/= results.
How Darach came across in the cinematic was far more impressive imo, he was for a good while dominating two far more game opponents simultaneously and showing some very high level combat skills. Darach solidly.
Vos, whilst severely injured, and using a lightsaber form ill-suited to fighting multiple opponents, achieved the same result as Darach against two Morgukai warriors. Difference being, they both have dueling feats, unlike Vindican and that early version of Malgus. That feat alone is beyond Darach's, and Vos improved afterwards.
Originally posted by ILS
Going by this logic Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are trash fighters because of how they "came across" in the films. Vos doesn't look any less badass in the way he fights, and that has never been an important aspect of feats. Choreography =/= results.
Way to completely misunderstand what I meant by "came across", guy. I wasn't talking specifically about the content of the fight choreography, but rather the circumstance of how dominant he was against two high level opponents, and certain feats of skill such as dual wielding a double-bladed lightsaber with a single lightsaber, using a saber throw to parry an attack or redirecting one opponent's lightning offensively against his other opponent. The whole cinematic paints a picture of a very high level swordsman and combatant and Agen Kolar by contrast has little in the way of combat feats that compare.
Vos was practically a newly trained Jedi (he had suffered from amnesia and was being retrained) that was consistently portrayed as being very unrefined and rough around the edges, so it's to be fully expected that a master level Jedi would have no issue with him in a contest of technical swordplay (not to mention it was not Vos's ultimate intention to kill Agen but simply get away; while at the same time Agen didn't wish to kill Quinlan but capture him, clearly such an engagement would favour the more technical swordsman over the more wild one).
Vos, whilst severely injured, and using a lightsaber form ill-suited to fighting multiple opponents, achieved the same result as Darach against two Morgukai warriors. Difference being, they both have dueling feats, unlike Vindican and that early version of Malgus. That feat alone is beyond Darach's, and Vos improved afterwards.
😂
Originally posted by ILS
You could argue Vos was fairly conflicted at the time, but it's still a fairly legitimate feat for Kolar.
Quinlan Vos was a relatively undertrained Jedi that was portrayed as being a mostly wild swordsman, in a scenario where his main objective was to flee from Agen and where deep down he had no real intention to cause Agen any harm. Agen on the other hand was clearly the more technical swordsman, and who's objective was to capture Quinlan. Clearly, in the brief moments they did engage, the advantage in such a scenario would be with Agen Kolar, seeing as his skills would be more tailored to things such as disarming an opponent, and Quinlan typically did best when he was free to just unleash his fury and batter down his opponents.
Factor in the advantageous situation for Agen and Quinlan's relative lack of training and proven ability, I fail to see how it's a good feat.
Originally posted by appletonia
Way to completely misunderstand what I meant by "came across", guy. I wasn't talking specifically about the content of the fight choreography, but rather the circumstance of how dominant he was against two high level opponents, and certain feats of skill such as dual wielding a double-bladed lightsaber with a single lightsaber, using a saber throw to parry an attack or redirecting one opponent's lightning offensively against his other opponent. The whole cinematic paints a picture of a very high level swordsman and combatant and Agen Kolar by contrast has little in the way of combat feats that compare.
Vos was practically a newly trained Jedi (he had suffered from amnesia and was being retrained) that was consistently portrayed as being very unrefined and rough around the edges, so it's to be fully expected that a master level Jedi would have no issue with him in a contest of technical swordplayVos wasn't a newly trained Jedi when he fought Kolar, lol. His amnesia arc took place several years before TPM - he fought Kolar well into the clone wars. There is nothing to suggest he is unrefined or rough around the edges, as you put it. He's a confirmed master of Ataru, to boot. Kolar curbstomped him because he's just that good. Also, on the point of him needing to be fully re-trained - this isn't true. If you had read the comic, you'd remember that when Vos first picks up a lightsaber again that he is able to fight based off of his muscle memory alone - so his fighting skill was still very much there.
(not to mention it was not Vos's ultimate intention to kill Agen but simply get away; while at the same time Agen didn't wish to kill Quinlan but capture him, clearly such an engagement would favour the more technical swordsman over the more wild one).Vos flat out states that it is too late for him and Kolar to be anything other than enemies, and then he attacks him. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Vos was running away from Agen, lol.
😂Splendid, a concession.
Quinlan Vos was a relatively undertrained Jedi that was portrayed as being a mostly wild swordsmanProof?
in a scenario where his main objective was to flee from Agen and where deep down he had no real intention to cause Agen any harmHe attacked Agen after declaring him an enemy, lol.
Agen on the other hand was clearly the more technical swordsman, and who's objective was to capture Quinlan.Indeed.
Clearly, in the brief moments they did engage, the advantage in such a scenario would be with Agen Kolar, seeing as his skills would be more tailored to things such as disarming an opponent, and Quinlan typically did best when he was free to just unleash his fury and batter down his opponents.Neither had an advantage or disadvantage, lol.
Factor in the advantageous situation for Agen and Quinlan's relative lack of training and proven ability, I fail to see how it's a good feat.Well when you conjure such factors out of thin air I could see why you wouldn't think much of the feat.
Well my mistake, I thought it was only a couple of years before the Clone Wars but I can now see that you're right and it was over ten years before.
Clearly my memory of that comic series is a little foggy, but was Quinlan not trying to convince both sides that he had turned to the darkside at that point? If so, it would be silly to take him fully at his word that he viewed Agen as an enemy, and yes, obviously the situation neccessitated that Quinlan briefly attack Agen head on simply because their paths were directly colliding, but when the opportunity presented itself did he not attempt to flee?
IIRC one of the main mysteries of that series was whether Quinlan had actually fallen, and if so how far, only for us to ultimately find out that he never completely fell and deep down had always been an agent of the light side. It would be silly to assume that even if in the moment he wasn't - on the surface - holding back against Agen, that he wouldn't have been extremely conflicted. As for how he fought in general, and again I am going off of memory here, the comic consistently shows him attacking in big open swings and usually with emotion (typically he would be wearing an expression of pure rage or anguish) which doesn't paint the picture of a particularly technical swordsman. A wild swordsman that fights with emotion does not excel in a situation where he's trying not to lethally harm his opponent, especially when his mind is divided between the fight and looking for an opportunity to escape at any given moment.
Agen on the other hand was a Jedi Master with a clear goal to capture Quinlan in mind and gives us no reason to doubt either his commintment to capturing him or the calmness of his mind. When you consider all the circumstances, the situation was clearly advantageous for Agen.
I think we should also remind ourselves that Quinlan Vos did very little in general to really solidify him as one of the best swordsmen of his era; again, he gets outclassed against all the top tier opponents he ever goes up against (Sora Bulq, Volfe Karkko and Agen Kolar), and is only able to ultimately defeat the former two after special circumstances lead to him achieving a deep clarity of mind and inner peace, which is not something he possessed against Agen; prior to achieving that state he was getting dominated by either. You take away those two victories, he demonstrates nothing to suggest he was a top tier Jedi. Your comparison of Quinlan's performance against two Morgukai warriors to Darach's performance against the two Sith Lords is quite frankly bizarre.
Anyone have a link to the comics? It would make this a lot easier, but until I am presented with one this is what I will say:
Assuming that it is indeed the case that Quinlan Vos was conflicted, fighting against Agen with wild swings and with emotion, was making active attempts to flee, and ultimately did not want to hurt Agen, then the advantage in that situation absolutely goes to Agen, assuming that he was entirely calm and fully commited to his mission of capturing Quinlan.
I will also point out that there seems to be a world of difference in how Quinlan Vos performs against top tier opponents depending on his mental state, which is the difference between getting completely dominated when conflicted, to being able to defeat them once achieving peace of mind. Assuming the Quinlan that Agen faced was conflicted, as I did in the above, then that Quinlan was very much a second rate opponent. Outside of those showings (defeating Sora and Volfe once achieving peace of mind), he does not ever demonstrate himself to be an elite swordsman or Jedi.
At this point ILS, I think it would be in your interests to start substantiating some of Quinlan Vos's feats (rather than making vague references to Morgukai soldiers) and establish that the Quinlan Agen faced wasn't at a situational and mental disadvantage. Until then, it can't be considered a great feat.