....Except lightning storms that cover literally the entire arena,
bursts of power that one-shot strike teams
Mind powers that lock people inside their own heads
beings able to tank hundreds of lightsaber strikes and force powers
randomly getting pissed off and becoming 10x as potent
Obviously there are some parts that are clearly non-canon, but others are fair representations of someones power. Then again, your own actions and such are non-canon obviously. It's quite annoying actually, I wish someone clarified after all these years.
Yeah but what you're implying is that those random game mechanic bosses are, like, above the likes of Dooku and Revan :/
and being able to tank hundreds of lightsaber strikes is just as game mechanic-y as the other things you've referenced.
Enrage timer. If a boss fight goes on for too long, the boss enrages and becomes 10x as powerful.
I imply many things, that doesn't mean it's what I said, or what I believe, merely something I implanted into your mind to make you question yourself.
But to be fair, I consider and acknowledge Force abilities in games, such as lightning storms or telekinetic pushes.
Wookieepedia has a nasty canon policy, and it fits the bill, so I don't see why I shouldn't consider it canonical.
Then again, no one should ever make it the basis of my argument, but no one should also dismiss it completely.
Originally posted by PTforthewin
That's why I hate RPG games, I wish there would be a new jedi knight game just imagine it.
"Ultimately, the fight will be decided by Revan's telekinesis and lightning vs Darth Zannah's telekinesis and lightning. To be knowledge, Zannah has never even demonstrated the use of knowledge, so all she has in her arsenal is telekinesis. Her sorcery requires time where, like Vitiate, Revan will savior and be able to effectively TK/Force_in_Balance her.
With such being said, you are being quite bias to claim Zannah can not only overcome Revan's force attacks, but then be able to beat her with her own!"
And thats just the first 2 paragraphs.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It isn't pure speculation that Zannah is just as powerful or more powerful than Bane. Which 100% makes her one of the most powerful Sith ever and waaaaay more powerful than a joke like Malak.
^ This. The whole point of Bane's Rule of Two is that the apprentice surpasses the master.
And this goes on and on and on for a thousand years, where student > master.
Bane trained Zannah with the purpose of her surpassing and killing him. If she wasn't as strong/stronger than him, she didn't deserve to rule after he was gone.
Originally posted by PTforthewin
Lol the events of outcast and academy and dark forces take place over 3 thousands years after KOTOR, plus the jedi where just recovering from the purge at the time, how would they know?
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
🙄 Ultimately, the fight will be decided by Revan's telekinesis and lightning vs Darth Zannah's telekinesis and lightning. To MY knowledge, Zannah has never even demonstrated the use of LIGHTNING, so all she has in her arsenal is telekinesis. Her sorcery requires time where, like Vitiate, Revan will I DON'T ****ING KNOW WHAT YOU MEANT TO SAY HERE and be able to effectively TK/Force_in_Balance her.With such being said, you are being quite biasED to claim Zannah can not only overcome Revan's force attacks, but then be able to beat HIM with her own! We know Zannah is not capable of this.
Its true that Zannah has never demonstrated lightning. Because Drew is an idiot he thinks that you can either do sorcery or you can do lightning, despite everyone doing both all the time. But regardless, his TK won't affect her and she can Force Bubble against his lightning. Eventually one of her sorceries will bring him down.
Also sorcery really doesn't take that much time to do. It depends on the spell. Zannah was able to pull it off against Bane twice in one duel.
I highly doubt Revan's Force in Balance will actually do much to her. He knocked over a Vitiate who wasn't prepared for the attack and had most of his strength occupied. Zannah will just through up a Force Shield and tank it. Then, when it knocks Revan over (which it did), she'll sorcery him.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Enough with Zannah Tk'ed a unprepared BANE. For all we know, Zannah could have sat in a corner and charged up for 5 minutes.
"He began to gather the dark side, the power slowly building. But before he could unleash it he was hit by a wall of thunderous force rolling out from a corridor to his left. Instinctively he threw up a defensive shield, absorbing the blow. Despite this, he was slammed against the opposite wall, knocking the breath from his lungs."And yet you dismiss Revan hitting Vitiate since he wasn't prepared, lmfao, Bane didn't even know Zannah was there! Furthermore, to my knowledge that is her best telekinetic feat. Please inform me otherwise if this is not true, but until then, Revan laughs at her.
Speculation. Also Bane would have noticed her presence if she did that, he was able to sense her in the prison.
It's irrelevant that Bane didn't know that she was there, since he was still able to throw up a force shield. Which wasn't said to be hasty or weakened by his surprise. And as I've pointed out, Bane was gathering his power before she attacked. Its a great Force feat since it broke through the Force defenses of a Force user of Bane's caliber and tossed him. Zannah herself states that she's equal to Bane and her feats prove it.
Revan meanwhile knocked over a Vitiate who was stated to be unprepared for the attack, meaning no force shield, and even if he managed one, he had most of his strength occupied. Zannah's feat is superior.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Consider it a special kind of TK.
Regardless of what it is, and quite frankly I don't give a damn, he can use it against Zannah if she tries to summon any illusions. However, I doubt he would need to anyway, considering he fought off Vitiate's mind domination successfully for 300 years.
I've addressed most of this already And I agree that Revan can likely resist her illusions.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
😂 Concede now, because you won't win this part.
The game itself is canon. Correct? Gamemechnics have never been stated to be non-canon. Correct?
Good, I see we agree, because it is apart of a canon game, and not stated to be non-canon, so it falls under the canon category of such said game.
Actually the wookieepedia page on canon states game mechanics are non-canon. They're non-diagetic.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, I am [b]tired of your double-standards. Like seriously? The other day you posted a video over how you were impressed of a feat some Dark Councilor did against the Sith Strike team, you said something along the lines of "whatever he does, it's pretty damn impressive" or something like such. Yet now you are telling me they are ineligible for a debate? Ha.[/b]
That wasn't me. I said it was too unclear to tell what was happening.
And its a different case because that attack is a scripted event during the fight. Revan using a Force Wave is simply a gameplay attack. The Consular and Inquisitor have a similar attack that throws back enemies. As I said, you might be able to say that its canon that Revan can use Force Wave based on him having it during the fight. But it's not canon that it tosses the team, because that's simply a gameplay function. If we take those things as canon then the Smuggler's grenades can toss around Malgus.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They are on Dromaund Kaas, which is said by Luke to be incredibly powerful in the Dark Side, and they can use the Sith Emperor's strength to make them have some Force Resistance. So what? It is not as if Revan channeled his full TK, he did a normal push, nothing special. I would rather be annoyed if the Guard did fly backwards.
Luke said that 3000 years in the future. And as I've pointed out before, DK was able to support the imperial occupation with no ill effects to the populace, indicating low nexus strength.
A normal push is what we should be taking as proof of Revan's normal TK abilities, not his charged up power. That he only managed to send a IG a few steps back when he was just drawing on Vitiate indicates that there's no way Revan would affect the Emperor with his TK ever.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Zannah has like one telekinetic feat.
All hail the mighty Zannah, the greatest Tker in the world!
As opposed to the four Revan has? 😉
Zannah has more, its just that most are when she was a child. Disintegration, levitation and a Force bubble are pretty dang sweet though.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66"The pale, glowing orb floating in the center of the chamber was nearly four meters tall. It pulsed with raw power; it made the flesh on Bane's neck crawl and the hair on his arms stand on end. Dark veins of shadow swirled on the shimmering metallic surface in slow, hypnotic rhythms. There was something grotesquely compelling about it, something fascinating yet repulsive at the same time."
I have no clue what this is supposed to prove.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Winter was still a new-and not entirely welcome-phenomenon on Ruusan. Originally it had been a temperate world, its climate controlled and moderated by the vast boreal forests that dominated the planet's surface. But during the prolonged conflict between the Brotherhood of Darkness and the Army of Light, millions of hectares of old-growth trees had been decimated, turning a huge swath of Ruusan's northern hemisphere into a desolate and arid wasteland.Alone, the dramatic changes in the geographic features of the world might not have been enough to affect a significant climatic shift. However, the damage to the environment left the world more vulnerable to the terrible devastation of the thought bomb. In the wake of Kaan's ultimate weapon, a powerful Force nexus was created: an invisible maelstrom of dark- and light-side energies capable of permanently altering the planet's weather patterns.
As a result, even in the regions of the planet where the forests still stood, snow-a rarity in generations gone past-became a regular yearly occurrence. The unprecedented winters typically lasted only a few months, but they were particularly brutal on an ecosystem that had evolved in a much warmer clime. Some of the flora and fauna of Ruusan, like the humans who still inhabited the world, had learned to adapt. Other species simply died off."
10 years after Zannah was there. Theres no proof the thing became a nexus a scant few hours after the Thought Bombs creation and Bane doesn't note any changes in the alignment of the area even when right next to it.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Her natural affinity would be automatically and naturally amplified by the powers of the Thought Bomb. Try again.
No, it wouldn't. And the text specifically notes that her attack was was the product solely of her natural affinity bereft of any preparation or training. It also says her attack was the same as her attack on the Jedi, which she did without the aid of a nexus.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You claimed she cannot tap into the power of other things, yet I proved you wrong by showing she can tap into Ruusan to amplify her speed.
Which she wasn't doing. 😬
She was tapping into her own power but with minimal training she got tired very quickly. It didn't say anything about Ruusan. It actually explicitly says she was trying to tap into her own "deep reserves of anger and hate". Try again.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*Everything!
Concession accepted, trollface.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I accept your concession. 👆
About Bane using a Force Scream? I guess you.... got me there? 👆
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You do not need to tap into a nexus for it to effect you...
Except we have multiple examples of a Force user consciously needing to tap into a nexus and countless examples where the effects of a nexus isn't noted at all.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It doesn't work like that either. We cannot just assume something like such and then write it off as a feat for a debate. Revan should be able to slaughter a dozen-or-so of the Imperial Guard, but that doesn't mean I can write it off as a feat and use it in my debate. I have to use what is available, and I can't make such assumptions be the basis of one of the main points in a 5 page debate.
Sorry, but it is how that works. Unlike your example, Zannah did block the Force Storm. When she was a ****ing child. You seriously think she was more capable as a kid than as a Sith Lord? With her infinitely improved mastery of the Force and with her power largely conceptualized, there's absolutely no reason to suggest she couldn't do the feat.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That doesn't mean she reaches her potential.
She does become Banes equal and probably becomes superior afterwards.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On a nexus, yeah. 👆 [/B]
Anywhere. Revan had no chance in the fight. He couldn't engage Vitiate in close quarters, he couldn't affect him with his own powers and after the first time Vitiate wasn't letting him deflect his own power back at him. Revan was just counting down to being owned. And that goes on or off a nexus.
Its true that Zannah has never demonstrated lightning
But regardless, his TK won't affect her
I disagree. If Zannah would try to summon illusions against Revan, he *can* and *will* throw her away like he did to Vitiate. As provided by the two quotations below from different sources, it only takes Vitiate a couple of seconds, if even, to mind-dominate someone. The fact Revan was able to summon such a powerful burst in such short time is not only a testonmy to his power as it is a demonstration he can certainly do the same to Zannah, who required even more time to complete her sorcery. And I would also like to point out that Zannah's TK would not effect Revan either. 😬
"The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force."
-and another example-
"Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation."
and she can Force Bubble against his lightning. Eventually one of her sorceries will bring him down.
Also sorcery really doesn't take that much time to do. It depends on the spell. Zannah was able to pull it off against Bane twice in one duel.
*This* is the fatal error of your argument, because the book actually looks at your point and specifically says otherwise
"Both she and Bane knew hot to surround themselves with an invisible field of energy that absorbed or repelled the most basic tricks taught to any Jedi or Sith. But Bane could unleash devastating bolts of dark side lightning from his hands almost at will. As long as she was careful, she was able to avoid them or intercept them with her lightsaber. This caution, however, allowed her Master to keep her off balance just enough to stay alive."
As literally stated right there, it covers this debate in a nutshell.
1. Zannah can use a Force Barrier to defend herself against basic attacks.
2. Force Lightning is not a basic attack.
3. She must defend herself against Force Lightning through other methods, and not a Force Barrier.
She was capable of defending herself against Darth Bane's through speed/reflex as well with, and primarily, her lightsaber. She does not have her lightsaber in this battle, and will therefore have to resort to her speed/reflexes and to be fair, *only* her speed/reflexes to survive just one wave of a FLS assault from Revan. There is absolutely no way that she can survive all of Revan's attacks when she is hard pressed even with a lightsaber.
I highly doubt Revan's Force in Balance will actually do much to her. He knocked over a Vitiate who wasn't prepared for the attack and had most of his strength occupied. Zannah will just through up a Force Shield and tank it. Then, when it knocks Revan over (which it did), she'll sorcery him.
"Bane's mind was strong; if she let up even for an instant he might break free of the spell. For a second she thought she had won as Bane let out a shriek, but the burst of energy that followed sent her reeling backward. Regaining her balance she saw that Bane was on his feat again, and she knew he had resisted the spell."
It takes Zannah focus to keep up a sorcery attack, like Vitiate for mind-domination. Revan, like Bane, can like I said above, TK her during these vunerable moments, thanks to their Force prowess and telepathic resistance abilities.
Speculation.
Also Bane would have noticed her presence if she did that, he was able to sense her in the prison.
It's irrelevant that Bane didn't know that she was there, since he was still able to throw up a force shield. Which wasn't said to be hasty or weakened by his surprise. And as I've pointed out, Bane was gathering his power before she attacked. Its a great Force feat since it broke through the Force defenses of a Force user of Bane's caliber and tossed him. Zannah herself states that she's equal to Bane and her feats prove it.
Revan meanwhile knocked over a Vitiate who was stated to be unprepared for the attack, meaning no force shield, and even if he managed one, he had most of his strength occupied. Zannah's feat is superior.
Not necessarily. As shown by the quote above, not even a minute later Bane even failed to sense the presence of Serra. Zannah could have easily shielded herself from the Force, or not even have done that, for Bane was occupied and distracted at the time. It is stated he was caught unprepared, implying he was not ready for Zannah. Unless he is incredibly stupid, which he isn't, he would have at least preped himself if his seemingly only threat is in lethal range from him.
Zannah's feat is not superior. At least Vitiate knew where Revan was. Zannah *completely* hit Bane off guard. Barely even eligible for a feat.
Actually the wookieepedia page on canon states game mechanics are non-canon. They're non-diagetic.
"And, if the situation was right he might be able to collapse a building..."
―Drew Karpyshyn (Author)
That wasn't me. I said it was too unclear to tell what was happening.And its a different case because that attack is a scripted event during the fight. Revan using a Force Wave is simply a gameplay attack. The Consular and Inquisitor have a similar attack that throws back enemies. As I said, you might be able to say that its canon that Revan can use Force Wave based on him having it during the fight. But it's not canon that it tosses the team, because that's simply a gameplay function. If we take those things as canon then the Smuggler's grenades can toss around Malgus.
Revan's TK is also scripted. No matter what, he will unleash a Force Blast immediately before he shields a Force Bubble around himself. This occurs at the same time, regardless of level, time, opponents, etc. He will also always use devastating Force Pull immediately before he unleashes a FLS. And he unleashes the TK bursts I am referring to at certain health percentages, for example, when he gets to 81% he unleashes the attack.
Luke said that 3000 years in the future. And as I've pointed out before, DK was able to support the imperial occupation with no ill effects to the populace, indicating low nexus strength.
"Over a millennium past, the Emperor claimed Dromund Kaas and made the Dark Temple the epicenter of dark Force energy. In the bowels of the [Dark] temple, he conducted horrifying experiments that drained the knowledge and life essence from all the greatest Sith Lords of the time."
As opposed to the four Revan has? wink
Disintegration
levitation
Force bubble are pretty dang sweet though.
I have no clue what this is supposed to prove.
". It pulsed with raw power; it made the flesh on Bane's neck crawl and the hair on his arms stand on end. Dark veins of shadow swirled on the shimmering metallic surface in slow, hypnotic rhythms. There was something grotesquely compelling about it, something fascinating yet repulsive at the same time."
Umm, it is basically a confirmed nexus right there.
10 years after Zannah was there. Theres no proof the thing became a nexus a scant few hours after the Thought Bombs creation and Bane doesn't note any changes in the alignment of the area even when right next to it.
Lol. The fact it was 10 years later even further proves my point. The effects of the Thought Bomb would be at its strongest instantly after the blast, for that is when the power is unleashed. As time goes on, the energy fades back into its natural balance. The fact after 10 years the world is still screwed up just shows how powerful the nexus was.
And the text specifically notes that her attack was was the product solely of her natural affinity bereft of any preparation or training.
Except we have multiple examples of a Force user consciously needing to tap into a nexus and countless examples where the effects of a nexus isn't noted at all.
Sorry, but it is how that works. Unlike your example, Zannah did block the Force Storm. When she was a ****ing child. You seriously think she was more capable as a kid than as a Sith Lord? With her infinitely improved mastery of the Force and with her power largely conceptualized, there's absolutely no reason to suggest she couldn't do the feat.
She does become Banes equal and probably becomes superior afterwards.
Anywhere. Revan had no chance in the fight. He couldn't engage Vitiate in close quarters, he couldn't affect him with his own powers and after the first time Vitiate wasn't letting him deflect his own power back at him. Revan was just counting down to being owned. And that goes on or off a nexus.