Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So with such, her arsenal is only sorcery and telekinesis. 👆
Yep.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn't even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready. Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind, was sent flying backward."I disagree. If Zannah would try to summon illusions against Revan, he *can* and *will* throw her away like he did to Vitiate.
Revan only affected Vitiate like that because he had most of his strength in his domination. Zannah doesn't leave herself so open while using sorcery. And even then, all it did was push Vitiate back. That won't let Revan actually win the fight if he uses it on Zannah. So how is he going to actually beat her?
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As provided by the two quotations below from different sources, it only takes Vitiate a couple of seconds, if even, to mind-dominate someone. The fact Revan was able to summon such a powerful burst in such short time is not only a testimony to his power as it is a demonstration he can certainly do the same to Zannah, who required even more time to complete her sorcery. And I would also like to point out that Zannah's TK would not effect Revan either. 😬"The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force."
-and another example-
"Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation."
You're wrong. I've already established, and you've already conceded, that those two circumstances aren't the same as the final duel, since according to Revan he'd come up with a defense against Vitiates telepathy. Thus Revan's protected mind would take longer for Vitiate to dominate, giving Revan time to counterattack.
Zannah's sorcery doesn't take that long to use. It's only a thought and a gesture. And her TK would affect Revan. If it can break through Bane's barrier, then it can do the same to Revan.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*This* is the fatal error of your argument, because the book actually looks at your point and specifically says otherwise
"Both she and Bane knew hot to surround themselves with an invisible field of energy that absorbed or repelled the most basic tricks taught to any Jedi or Sith. But Bane could unleash devastating bolts of dark side lightning from his hands almost at will. As long as she was careful, she was able to avoid them or intercept them with her lightsaber. This caution, however, allowed her Master to keep her off balance just enough to stay alive."As literally stated right there, it covers this debate in a nutshell.
1. Zannah can use a Force Barrier to defend herself against basic attacks.
2. Force Lightning is not a basic attack.
3. She must defend herself against Force Lightning through other methods, and not a Force Barrier.
Uh, no. It states that she can defend herself against basic force attacks with a standard barrier and that she has to be careful of Bane's lightning. This does not preclude the idea that she can use a Force Barrier, just that it would be inadvisable to do so against Bane. Since Bane's lightning is, as it says, devastating. Bane's lightning is far and away more powerful and destructive than Revan's lightning, capable of disintegrating people as well as chunks of stone. That Zannah can't block it with a Force Barrier doesn't mean that she can't block Revan's with one. It doesn't even specifically say that she can't block Bane's lightning with the Force, only that her standard invisible defenses can't. A Force Barrier isn't invisible, it's a shimmering ball of light as seen when Worror used it in RoT and when Zannah used it iirc.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She was capable of defending herself against Darth Bane's through speed/reflex as well with, and primarily, her lightsaber. She does not have her lightsaber in this battle, and will therefore have to resort to her speed/reflexes and to be fair, *only* her speed/reflexes to survive just one wave of a FLS assault from Revan. There is absolutely no way that she can survive all of Revan's attacks when she is hard pressed even with a lightsaber.
Since when doesn't she have her lightsaber? The thread starter didn't say that.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It seems as you type this debate, you completely forget all of Zannah's weaknesses, and then pretend she has none."Bane's mind was strong; if she let up even for an instant he might break free of the spell. For a second she thought she had won as Bane let out a shriek, but the burst of energy that followed sent her reeling backward. Regaining her balance she saw that Bane was on his feat again, and she knew he had resisted the spell."
It takes Zannah focus to keep up a sorcery attack, like Vitiate for mind-domination. Revan, like Bane, can like I said above, TK her during these vunerable moments, thanks to their Force prowess and telepathic resistance abilities.
Bane was only capable of doing that after he'd actually resisted the attack. You'll notice though that I already agreed that Revan can likely do the same, in like the 5th post of the thread. I just think she'd take him with other abilities.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So is saying Bane sensed Zannah before hand. 🙄
Except we know he did. He knew she was in the prison, at one point even leaving a false Force signature to try to lead her away from him. Try again.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"The two combatants were so focused on each other that neither had notices Serra."Not necessarily. As shown by the quote above, not even a minute later Bane even failed to sense the presence of Serra. Zannah could have easily shielded herself from the Force, or not even have done that, for Bane was occupied and distracted at the time. It is stated he was caught unprepared, implying he was not ready for Zannah. Unless he is incredibly stupid, which he isn't, he would have at least preped himself if his seemingly only threat is in lethal range from him.
Zannah's feat is not superior. At least Vitiate knew where Revan was. Zannah *completely* hit Bane off guard. Barely even eligible for a feat.
While he's in combat of course he won't sense someone else. But all Bane was doing was talking to someone. And he'd already showed he can sense her. If Zannah had stood there charging up he would have sensed her. He didn't. Regardless, he charged up as well.
Bane WAS caught off-guard, but I still don't see why that matters. Bane was still able to sense the attack before it hit him and throw up a Force Shield, and even if it was weaker due to being unprepared, that's balanced out by the fact that Bane had been charging his power before doing it. So what reason do you have for suggesting the feat is unimpressive?
Vitiate on the other hand, is not even stated to have pulled up his Force defenses. For all we know, Revan's feat basically just tossed around a distracted old man. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt in saying he could have blunted the attack somewhat, but even then it's nowhere near Zannah's feat because it's specifically said that most of Vitiate's strength was unavailable. Even if Bane's shield was weaker than normal, it was nowhere near THAT much weaker.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Outdated. All known "Powers and Abilities" sections of articles that feature characters in video games includes game mechanics. For example, look at Bandon or Korr. Regardless, that is another debate for another time. Revan has good enough TK feats to surpass Zannah even without TOR. 😬 She's not going to be collapsing a building anytime soon. 😉"And, if the situation was right he might be able to collapse a building..."
―Drew Karpyshyn (Author)
Wow, so he's half as powerful as a nameless Jedi Malgus one-shot. Incredible.
Revan maybe being able to collapse a building is such a non-feat I'm astonished you actually though it meant something.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's TK is also scripted. No matter what, he will unleash a Force Blast immediately before he shields a Force Bubble around himself. This occurs at the same time, regardless of level, time, opponents, etc. He will also always use devastating Force Pull immediately before he unleashes a FLS. And he unleashes the TK bursts I am referring to at certain health percentages, for example, when he gets to 81% he unleashes the attack.
Conceded, I didn't know that.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke saying that 3000 years in the future is a testament to its power. Dromaund Kaas has been relatively unused after the fall of Vitiate's Sith Empire, so the fact it was able to remain so powerful shows us how powerful it would have been with thousands of Sith Lords active on the planet. And, I found another quote below. Concede Neph."Over a millennium past, the Emperor claimed Dromund Kaas and made the Dark Temple the epicenter of dark Force energy. In the bowels of the [Dark] temple, he conducted horrifying experiments that drained the knowledge and life essence from all the greatest Sith Lords of the time."
No, it isn't. We have no idea what happened between that time. Perhaps Vitiate was struck down permanently on it and the stolen power from Nathema was unleashed on the planet, corrupting it. Perhaps some ritual is used. Who knows. Regardless, the fact that a civilization thrived on it with no ill effects proves it's not strong.
I already knew about that quote.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Even completely excluding all his SWTOR Foundry feats, he has 10, which is *much* more then the amount Zannah has.
4 Impressive TK Showings, 1 TK Feat From Drew's Email, 2 Force Chokes, 1 Levitation, and 2 Lightsaber throw/grab.
When did he levitate himself? I wasn't counting a few of those because they're so inconsequential. If we count those ones then Zannah's up to a similar number.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On a Nexus. 👆
Nope.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
When does she do this? Regardless, Revan has done it too.
She falls off a cliff and levitates herself to safety. In some point on Ruusan.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Same as Revan. The only difference is, she has never done it in combat, only once out of instinct and desperation.
As a child with no force mastery. Serious question: You think characters have more power as children acting on instinct than as Force Masters? That's braindead.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
". It pulsed with raw power; it made the flesh on Bane's neck crawl and the hair on his arms stand on end. Dark veins of shadow swirled on the shimmering metallic surface in slow, hypnotic rhythms. There was something grotesquely compelling about it, something fascinating yet repulsive at the same time."Umm, it is basically a confirmed nexus right there.
Uh, no it's not. Pulsing with power means nothing. My dick pulses with power. To prove it had created a nexus you'd need to prove that everything around it pulsed with power.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lol. The fact it was 10 years later even further proves my point. The effects of the Thought Bomb would be at its strongest instantly after the blast, for that is when the power is unleashed. As time goes on, the energy fades back into its natural balance. The fact after 10 years the world is still screwed up just shows how powerful the nexus was.
Except it would take time for it to affect and corrupt the environment. Nexus' don't just instantly spawn, the darkside corrupts places over time. Also the Thought Bomb obviously didn't diminish over time.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That doesn't mean her natural affinity is not being amplified. She would have to of been *actively* fighting off the power of the Though Bomb and its effects for it not to amplify her powers. Yes, tapping into a nexus allows the user to have more power, but the area around them would *still* be amplified regardless. For example, Jedi do not actively draw in energies of a Dark Side nexus but are still effected by them.
If the text specifically notes that she's performing the technique through her natural affinity, then by the mother****ing definition of the word natural, she isn't drawing on the power of the nexus. She drawing on her own natural Force power, not the Force around her.
No she wouldn't have to fight off the effects of the nexus, which you haven't proven exists, simply not draw on it. The area around them didn't have time to be affected by the Thought Bomb and Zannah was too inexperienced to draw on a nexus.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm not saying she couldn't do the feat. I am saying she can't do the feat in the .026 seconds it would take for a lightning attack to strike her.
Zannah can easily dodge lightning.
So even if she didn't Bubble up, which you just said you don't actually disagree with, she can just sidestep the attack.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
*probably*
Not probably that she becomes his equal though.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He couldn't engage close quarters because he couldn't get to Vitiate. There was a 120 foot gap between them. If there was a closer gap, Revan honestly could have won. All Vitiate had really was his lightning storm and TK, and his TK wasn't powerful enough to damage Revan, but merely to just throw him backwards.
That's such utter bullshit. Revan couldn't have beaten Vitiate by himself, that's obvious. As soon as Revan got close Vitiate blasted him back. The exact same thing would have happened whether or not he was 120 feet or 10 feet away. Revan couldn't get to Vitiate because Vitiate is just more powerful than he is. That he didn't crush Revan with TK is just because he wanted to dominate his mind again.
Lame. Basically just look at this and pick all the most condescending animations.
The debate is drawing to an end. The only real thing to establish is if Zannah can block Revan's lightning and if her TK is on par with Bane's.
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The only real thing to establish is if Zannah can block Revan's lightning and if her TK is on par with Bane's.
This debate is drawing out, so I color-coded what you do and do not respond to.
THE ACTUAL DEBATE: If Zannah's sorcery is more powerful then Revan's lightning. Neither will ultimately overcome the other with Telekinesis.
NOTE: There is probably a shit ton of grammar/spelling errors in this...I didn't bother proofreading. My Sith Inquistor awaits me.
Revan only affected Vitiate like that because he had most of his strength in his domination. Zannah doesn't leave herself so open while using sorcery. And even then, all it did was push Vitiate back. That won't let Revan actually win the fight if he uses it on Zannah. So how is he going to actually beat her?You're wrong. I've already established, and you've already conceded, that those two circumstances aren't the same as the final duel, since according to Revan he'd come up with a defense against Vitiates telepathy. Thus Revan's protected mind would take longer for Vitiate to dominate, giving Revan time to counterattack.
Zannah's sorcery doesn't take that long to use. It's only a thought and a gesture. And her TK would affect Revan. If it can break through Bane's barrier, then it can do the same to Revan.
Uh, no. It states that she can defend herself against basic force attacks with a standard barrier and that she has to be careful of Bane's lightning. This does not preclude the idea that she can use a Force Barrier, just that it would be inadvisable to do so against Bane. Since Bane's lightning is, as it says, devastating. Bane's lightning is far and away more powerful and destructive than Revan's lightning, capable of disintegrating people as well as chunks of stone. That Zannah can't block it with a Force Barrier doesn't mean that she can't block Revan's with one. It doesn't even specifically say that she can't block Bane's lightning with the Force, only that her standard invisible defenses can't. A Force Barrier isn't invisible, it's a shimmering ball of light as seen when Worror used it in RoT and when Zannah used it iirc.Relation to Debate: If Darth Zannah's Force barrier is effective against Revan.
I just think she'd take him with other abilities.
Except we know he did. He knew she was in the prison, at one point even leaving a false Force signature to try to lead her away from him. Try again.
While he's in combat of course he won't sense someone else. But all Bane was doing was talking to someone. And he'd already showed he can sense her. If Zannah had stood there charging up he would have sensed her. He didn't. Regardless, he charged up as well.Bane WAS caught off-guard, but I still don't see why that matters. Bane was still able to sense the attack before it hit him and throw up a Force Shield, and even if it was weaker due to being unprepared, that's balanced out by the fact that Bane had been charging his power before doing it. So what reason do you have for suggesting the feat is unimpressive?
Vitiate on the other hand, is not even stated to have pulled up his Force defenses. For all we know, Revan's feat basically just tossed around a distracted old man. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt in saying he could have blunted the attack somewhat, but even then it's nowhere near Zannah's feat because it's specifically said that most of Vitiate's strength was unavailable. Even if Bane's shield was weaker than normal, it was nowhere near THAT much weaker.
No, it isn't. We have no idea what happened between that time. Perhaps Vitiate was struck down permanently on it and the stolen power from Nathema was unleashed on the planet, corrupting it. Perhaps some ritual is used. Who knows. Regardless, the fact that a civilization thrived on it with no ill effects proves it's not strong.
I already knew about that quote.
When did he levitate himself? I wasn't counting a few of those because they're so inconsequential. If we count those ones then Zannah's up to a similar number.
Serious question: You think characters have more power as children acting on instinct than as Force Masters? That's braindead.
Uh, no it's not. Pulsing with power means nothing. My dick pulses with power. To prove it had created a nexus you'd need to prove that everything around it pulsed with power.
Except it would take time for it to affect and corrupt the environment. Nexus' don't just instantly spawn, the darkside corrupts places over time. Also the Thought Bomb obviously didn't diminish over time.
If the text specifically notes that she's performing the technique through her natural affinity, then by the mother****ing definition of the word natural, she isn't drawing on the power of the nexus. She drawing on her own natural Force power, not the Force around her.No she wouldn't have to fight off the effects of the nexus, which you haven't proven exists, simply not draw on it. The area around them didn't have time to be affected by the Thought Bomb and Zannah was too inexperienced to draw on a nexus.
That's such utter bullshit. Revan couldn't have beaten Vitiate by himself, that's obvious. As soon as Revan got close Vitiate blasted him back. The exact same thing would have happened whether or not he was 120 feet or 10 feet away. Revan couldn't get to Vitiate because Vitiate is just more powerful than he is. That he didn't crush Revan with TK is just because he wanted to dominate his mind again.