Um, you're aware that there are other sorcerous techniques than just mental assualts right? Like the Force Blast that Aleema used to turn a dude into a charred skeleton or that King Ommin used. Or Sutta Chwituskak, bolts of hatred and Odojinya, a darkside web that severs the targets force connection, both of which were again demonstrated by Ommin. Zannah has access to a wide array of sorcery to use against Revan, seeing as she possesses the knowledge from Freedon Nadds holocron. And Nadd was said to have mastered every darkside technique, and was in general a consummate sorcerer. Even if her mental assault fails, like with Bane she has other options.
[...then later...]
The darkside is a path to many abilities some would consider.... unnatural. She has access to sorcery, which has a number of attacks. Eventually I feel one of the techniques would bring him down, coupled with TK if necessary.
Revan's attack hit himself as well as the Emperor, remember. It isn't going to leave Zannah vulnerable to anything.
Bane wasn't capable of freely using TK against Zannah. so neither would Revan. It was only him repelling the mental attack with a blast of power that did that.
- Zannah has already demonstrated the ability to block lightning and flame with a Force bubble. Just because she cannot do the same against Bane's extremely devastating usage of lightning does not mean that she couldn't against Revan's more..... pedestrian assault. - "Protection Bubble" and Force Bubble are the same thing. Again, Zannah has access to Nadd's holocron, which undoubtedly has knowledge of Force Bubble in it, a technique Zannah already instinctively knows how to use anyway.
Spoiler:
Well I have actually tbh, but still.
She was evidently not able to completely hide her presence from him. But just as evidently he wasn't able to track her movements. A good deal of time spent charging up her power near Bane would obviously have made her presence known to him though.
However regardless, please note: Bane threw up his barrier in a last-second effort. It would be no where has power as a barrier that he had seen the Force attack from start to finish. It is only logical that, a telekinetic amped attack by Zannah would hurl a nearly completely unprepared Bane backwards.
Anyway, this is largely irrelevant. Zannah didn't hide and charge up the attack. If she had, she would have had enough time to notice that Bane didn't have his lightsaber, which she was visibly unsure of.
Revan didn't use a TK attack and it obviously wasn't direct moron, he unleashed the raw Force in an explosion between them.
And its not that it was fast
It's never stated that they're drawing on their "greatest" force reserves, just that they're drawing on their potential. To what degree is unknown. Theres no way that Zannah's greatest force reserves only equate to snapping some necks and blowing up a hand.
I mean, if this were true Zannah could have destroyed Bane instead of her cousins hand, which is absurd.
I said that it would take time for the energy to corrupt the Force in the area around the bomb. Not nearly enough time had occurred for that to have happened.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She has never used any other options in a fight, besides tendrils, however according to Drew: "The Force permeats all things, and while much of the power is concentrated in the lake, it seeps through everything. Zannah basically was drawing on the power trapped there for thousands of years." To say she can do any more is making up powers in your little hypothetical world. Submit to Revan's superiority or suffer the wrath of the Force in balance.
Yeah and Sidious and Yoda never use anything but standard Force powers yet there's sources stating that they have other techniques at their fingers. Zannah is known to possess knowledge of a wide variety of sorceries. She had the book of sorcery from Qordis, everything from Nadd's holocron (who was known to be a deeply knowledgable sorcerer) and everything she found after in her studies.
And I'm not making up powers, dingus. All of Aleema and Ommin's sorcerous knowledge that I mentioned came from Nadd himself, the guy who's holocron Zannah has access to. It's not hypothetical to say she can use the same abilities they have, considering her talents as a sorcerer vastly outstrip theirs and she has the same source of knowledge as them.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lol wut? The attack didn't "hit" him. It was *so* powerful that it made him stagger backwards.
Don't nitpick.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
By "blast of power", you mean telekensis, right? He doesn't have this rare, unique power that he uses against illusions. 😬
In their final fight, he was saved by the illusions via a mere Force Scream. Rather pathetic for Zannah, to be honest. 😂
No, I mean blast of power. It was a 'searing violet light', and not a force scream.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I never seen such awful logic! Well I have, but not from you.Spoiler:
Well I have actually tbh, but still.
She put up a bubble instinctively while she was a sleeping at night. Realistically, it could have taken her ample time for the bubble to form. The fact she never did it against Bane confirms she cannot due it instantly. And it is rather silly you think she can put on and off Force bubbles in .02 seconds every second or two. 🙄
What the shit are you talking about? Jesus, and you said my logic was bad. One, I don't recall anywhere it saying Zannah used the bubble while she was sleeping. In fact, her Bouncer friend warned her something bad was gonna happen shortly before hand so I doubt she then went to sleep. Two, if she was asleep, why would that make it quicker to use the technique than if she was awake? You'd think that your reaction time and speed at using the Force would be improved by being, I don't know, conscious? Ample time? What the hell are you talking about, the Storm moved extremely quickly and if she was asleep, how the **** would she be aware of it enough to prep for it? Thirdly, you moron, we've seen people use Force Bubbles many times in the mythos and not once does it take more than .02 seconds to use. Fourthly she didn't use it against Bane because there was never a point at which she needed to. Would you kindly go slap yourself for this utter disgrace of a paragraph? 😬
BTW, Bane also blocks blaster bolts and concussion grenades with a Force Barrier in DoE despite his Force power being diminished and we know that even a regular barrier can block lightning. Just because Zannah can't block Bane's lightning with one doesn't mean anything with regards to Revan's. Of course, you've already admitted she can use Force Bubble, you've admitted it would be close to the power of the one that blocked the Force Storm and your only remaining argument is retarded so I guess I've already won this point. 👆
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[b]Flaw in argument:
With the assumption that Bane did not know, even more speculative cons appear for the duo:
1. Darth Bane has awful precognition and Force sense.
-or-
2. Darth Bane's Force abilities were still heavily weakened by the drugs.However regardless, please note: Bane threw up his barrier in a last-second effort. It would be no where has power as a barrier that he had seen the Force attack from start to finish. It is only logical that, a telekinetic amped attack by Zannah would hurl a nearly completely unprepared Bane backwards.[/b]
What the shit? You're aware that Zannah can easier shield her Force presence, yes? She walked into the Jedi Temple and ****ed around in their library. And Bane actually DID sense her, since he was aware enough of her presence to mask his own force signature and create a false one to lure her away from him. It isn't that he has bad senses, just that she was actively hiding from him.
Bane wasn't heavily weakened, he'd purged himself of them and only the very dregs remained in his system.
We've already talked about the "last-ditch" thing. Even if his barrier was weakened by being impromptu, which isn't stated, he was charging up his power right before her attack so at worst it would even out. And Zannah's attack wasn't amped.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not really. He could be hiding it in his robes, like Jinn did on Tatooine in Episode 1.
He's fighting his way out, theres no reason for him to be hiding it, which would only impede himself. And he was imprisoned, he wasn't wearing any robes. And Zannah had stumbled upon his dead victims previously and already suspected he didn't have his lightsaber. If she was amping an attack, she'd look for it.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Explosion between them? What?
The energy was directed towards Vitiate.
Revan was perfectly fine besides a little staggering.
How do you have such a shitty memory of this book? Holy shit, it wasn't directed at all:
"Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward."
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The entire fight happened in a few seconds. It was incredibly fast.
Not my point, bro. Vitiate wasn't knocked over because Revan's attack was just so fast, it was because he was vulnerable at the time.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Drawing on Force reserve=/=gathering entire Force reserve. 😬
I'm glad you agree? 😕
You're the one stating Zannah was drawing on her greatest force reserves.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nearly 1/4+ of a novel happened in that time. 😬
Right, a few hours.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah and Sidious and Yoda never use anything but standard Force powers yet there's sources stating that they have other techniques at their fingers. Zannah is known to possess knowledge of a wide variety of sorceries. She had the book of sorcery from Qordis, everything from Nadd's holocron (who was known to be a deeply knowledgable sorcerer) and everything she found after in her studies.And I'm not making up powers, dingus. All of Aleema and Ommin's sorcerous knowledge that I mentioned came from Nadd himself, the guy who's holocron Zannah has access to. It's not hypothetical to say she can use the same abilities they have, considering her talents as a sorcerer vastly outstrip theirs and she has the same source of knowledge as them.
You fail to recognize the issue though. It rather is hypothetical to make assumptions over which powers she does or doesn't have. Perhaps she never even studied the art of Force Lightning in general, despite it being in a holocron she possess, or maybe she did. There is no way of knowing, and even further no way of knowing how powerful she is with that particular power. It's really all assumptions.
And with your logic, it works the same for Revan. Revan knew dozens of ancient rituals, some of which even Bane was frightened to even try. Revan went to the worlds of Korriban and Malachor V and studied their mass collections of information. This is confirmed in various sources, below is just one example. There are dozens of powers that Revan is actually even confirmed to know about, including Force Drain. Revan uses this immediately before engaging Jorak Uln in combat, and previously once he went to Malachor V for the first time. In fact, Scourge himself concedes the Emperor and Revan's knowledge on the Force surpass him so far he will never be able to catch-up.
"Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side."
―Chronicles of the Old Republic
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I mean blast of power. It was a 'searing violet light', and not a force scream.
"He knew how to defeat these demons, and he struck back. Unleashing a primal scream, he channeled his terror into pure rage and lashed out with the dark side. It tore through the swarm in a burst of wearing violet light, utterly obliterating them."
- - - - - - -
"For a second she thought she had won as Bane let out a shriek, but the burst of energy that followed sent her reeling backwards."
―Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
Originally posted by Nephthys
What the shit are you talking about? Jesus, and you said my logic was bad. One, I don't recall anywhere it saying Zannah used the bubble while she was sleeping. In fact, her Bouncer friend warned her something bad was gonna happen shortly before hand so I doubt she then went to sleep.
The storm itself happens at night. When Rain awakes, she asked if she was responsible for the feat to the Bouncer.
The Bouncer confirms, however, if Rain was awake it is obvious she would know if she did it or not, lol.
The Bouncer then states that he/she dreamed during it, implying as well that if Rain's guardian was asleep at night, so is Rain.
Quite obvious a young girl will be sleeping at night after an exhausting day, especially if the Bouncer was as well.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Two, if she was asleep, why would that make it quicker to use the technique than if she was awake? You'd think that your reaction time and speed at using the Force would be improved by being, I don't know, conscious? Ample time? What the hell are you talking about, the Storm moved extremely quickly and if she was asleep, how the **** would she be aware of it enough to prep for it?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thirdly, you moron, we've seen people use Force Bubbles many times in the mythos and not once does it take more than .02 seconds to use.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Fourthly she didn't use it against Bane because there was never a point at which she needed to. Would you kindly go slap yourself for this utter disgrace of a paragraph? 😬
"As long as she was careful, she was able to avoid them or intercept them with her lightsaber."
―Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Originally posted by Nephthys
What the shit? You're aware that Zannah can easier shield her Force presence, yes? She walked into the Jedi Temple and ****ed around in their library.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And Bane actually DID sense her, since he was aware enough of her presence to mask his own force signature and create a false one to lure her away from him. It isn't that he has bad senses, just that she was actively hiding from him.
"All thoughts of Lucia were gone, swept away along with the memories of his past life. The only thing he cared about was this confrontation, for he knew the fate of the Sith hinged on the outcome."
―Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Originally posted by Nephthys
We've already talked about the "last-ditch" thing. Even if his barrier was weakened by being impromptu, which isn't stated, he was charging up his power right before her attack so at worst it would even out.
1. His attention was diverted to Lucia. Nothing on the page suggests he knew Zannah found him.
2. The energy he charged wasn't transferred to the barrier. That dark side energy was lost. Nothing in the text suggests otherwise.
His Force barrier was instinctual, which brings forth the obvious fact then he didn't transfer that energy to form his own Force barrier.
You can say with reason the energy was also instinctively transferred, though there is more evidence to suggest otherwise.
"Lucia was not so fortunate. Unable to call upon the Force to protect herself..."
―Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
The red text suggests further what I am saying. Bane didn't use his old energy, but rather called upon the Force to create anew.
Originally posted by Nephthys
How do you have such a shitty memory of this book? Holy shit, it wasn't directed at all.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Not my point, bro. Vitiate wasn't knocked over because Revan's attack was just so fast, it was because he was vulnerable at the time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You're the one stating Zannah was drawing on her greatest force reserves.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Right, a few hours.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
It would take time for the energy to corrupt the Force after the Thought Bomb? I just laughed irl.
Malachor didn't waste any time.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You fail to recognize the issue though. It rather is hypothetical to make assumptions over which powers she does or doesn't have. Perhaps she never even studied the art of Force Lightning in general, despite it being in a holocron she possess, or maybe she did. There is no way of knowing, and even further no way of knowing how powerful she is with that particular power. It's really all assumptions.And with your logic, it works the same for Revan. Revan knew dozens of ancient rituals, some of which even Bane was frightened to even try. Revan went to the worlds of Korriban and Malachor V and studied their mass collections of information. This is confirmed in various sources, below is just one example. There are dozens of powers that Revan is actually even confirmed to know about, including Force Drain. Revan uses this immediately before engaging Jorak Uln in combat, and previously once he went to Malachor V for the first time. In fact, Scourge himself concedes the Emperor and Revan's knowledge on the Force surpass him so far he will never be able to catch-up.
"Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side."
―Chronicles of the Old Republic
Um, yes? It does work the same for Revan. He has a shitton of knowledge about a shitton of abilities. I can't think of many abilities I wouldn't say he knows about or has mastery of. Of course, he never really used sorcery so I wouldn't suggest he's naturally gifted in that area. But I find it unlikely that he doesn't know a lot about it.
Force Lightning is different. It seems that Zannah simply didn't have talent in that area. Bane explains it when he tells her she's a sorcerer by nature and her talents lie more towards that area. Which btw equals this:
"A rare few have a natural affinity for the dark side itself. They can delve into the depths of the Force and summon arcane energies to twist and warp the world around them. They can invoke the ancient rituals of the Sith; they can conjure power and unleash terrible spells and dark magics."
Sorcery is not just the mental attacks Zannah demonstrates. She obviously has access to other abilities and I see no reason not to believe she does. The source of her knowledge comes from Nadd, who is known to have abilities such as the ones I described to you. So don't think that as soon as Zannah fails to mindfvck Revan she's totally blown her load. She has other attacks she can use on him.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
😬 It was a Force Scream amplified by the "power trapped there for thousands of years.""He knew how to defeat these demons, and he struck back. Unleashing a primal scream, he channeled his terror into pure rage and lashed out with the dark side. It tore through the swarm in a burst of wearing violet light, utterly obliterating them."
- - - - - - -
"For a second she thought she had won as Bane let out a shriek, but the burst of energy that followed sent her reeling backwards."
―Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
😐
You realise it's possible to scream.... without it being a Force Scream. 😐
It even says that the burst of energy happened after his scream. Come on bro.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The storm itself happens at night. When Rain awakes, she asked if she was responsible for the feat to the Bouncer.
The Bouncer confirms, however, if Rain was awake it is obvious she would know if she did it or not, lol.
The Bouncer then states that he/she dreamed during it, implying as well that if Rain's guardian was asleep at night, so is Rain.
Quite obvious a young girl will be sleeping at night after an exhausting day, especially if the Bouncer was as well.
I see where you're confused. The Bouncers refer to dreams differently than is normal. I believe its what they call visions or something. And Zannah didn't know if she did it or not because as you say, she wasn't aware of the true strength of her connection to the Force. I still doubt Zannah just slept through the raging inferno.
Do you have any other pictures of these events from Jedi vs Sith? I've never been able to get a copy.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She was not even aware she knew how to use the Force. If she was awake, she probably couldn't have been able to perform the feat regardless, unless it was via instinct.
You don't understand what I mean, so allow me to explain again: She was, by nearly all evidence, asleep during the time of the Force Lightning Storm.
Because of this, the only logical assumption on how she defended it was via pure instinct, in which you agreed with me on iirc.
The storm would be easily sensed as a disturbance through the Force. Her unconscious body could be preparing instinctively since the moment it began.
WTF? It was via instinct when she was asleep, according to you. So if she was awake or asleep it would still be the same.
I understand that, but I don't understand why that matters in the slightest. Even if it was via instinct theres no reason she couldn't do it later as a fully trained Sith Lord. I mean, if she has instinctive knowledge of the tech already its only logical, right?
That's the stupidest argument you've ever made. She sensed it and prepped in her sleep? I'm not even ****ing dignifying that. facepalm
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What Rain used doesn't seem to look like a Force Barrier. Wookieepedia agrees with me that it was a Force Protection Bubble.
Those are rather difficult to just "throw up" whenever, but to be fair, it has been done before.
However, you fail to recgnoize the point I am trying to make:
You yourself said earlier that Revan would eventually fall via Zannah's sorcery.
Realistically, Zannah would eventually fall via Revan's lightning instead.
I said Force Bubble, not Barrier. A Force Bubble is the same thing as a "Force Protection Bubble." Its one word different.
No they aren't difficult to throw up. There's no indication they're more complex and hard to use than other Force defenses. Perhaps more of an advanced ability, but no indication of being slower to whip out. So I don't see Revan penetrating her Bubble with his lightning.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This is where you are wrong. Darth Bane was spamming lightning at her. If she could, she would have just put up a Protection bubble around herself, and save her the trouble.
Look at the below quote: they don't even list that as an option. This implies she can literally only survive against Revan's lightning if she has a lightsaber. She doesn't in this battle."As long as she was careful, she was able to avoid them or intercept them with her lightsaber."
―Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
I already said, she clearly couldn't use it to block Bane's lightning. That's already established. That does not however, mean that she couldn't use it to block Revan's lightning. Since Revan's lightning is weaker than Bane's. It's a fact that Force defenses can block Force Lightning. Theres nothing indicating that Zannah's is some special case where it's impossible. If her defenses are strong enough and the attack weak enough she can block it. It's as simple as that.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It wasn't easily. It was rather extremely difficult. Letting up her guard for even a fraction of a second would make the entire Jedi Temple know a Sith was there.
I meant easily as in she can do it in seconds, as she does in the final battle so she can run up and backstab Raskta.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which then suggests that, if he believed he lured her away from him, he wouldn't be thinking much about Zannah or anything sans Lucia.
The below quote supports lots of his attention was directed to Lucia and his memories with her. Nothing really supports Zannah was on his mind much at all."All thoughts of Lucia were gone, swept away along with the memories of his past life. The only thing he cared about was this confrontation, for he knew the fate of the Sith hinged on the outcome."
―Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Bane didn't know he was successful and I doubt he was stupid enough to think that would distract her for long. I see no reason why he'd idiotically drop his guard like that. Bane even notes that it might not be possible to trick Zannah and get out.
That he was thinking on Lucia doesn't mean his entire focus was solely on her or that he wasn't using his Force sense as well.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"He began to gather the dark side, the power slowly building. But before he could unleash it he was hit by a wall of thunderous force rolling out from a corridor to the left. Instinctively he threw up a defense shield, absorbing the blow."
―Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil1. His attention was diverted to Lucia. Nothing on the page suggests he knew Zannah found him.
2. The energy he charged wasn't transferred to the barrier. That dark side energy was lost. Nothing in the text suggests otherwise.
His Force barrier was instinctual, which brings forth the obvious fact then he didn't transfer that energy to form his own Force barrier.
You can say with reason the energy was also instinctively transferred, though there is more evidence to suggest otherwise."Lucia was not so fortunate. Unable to call upon the Force to protect herself..."
―Darth Bane: Dynasty of EvilThe red text suggests further what I am saying. Bane didn't use his old energy, but rather called upon the Force to create anew. [/b]
1. True.
2. WTF? That's stupid and not true. There's no reason why he couldn't use the energy he was charging for a barrier. Just because it's instinctive doesn't mean anything. He's not a freaking gun, you don't need to load power into specific chambers to fire off Force attacks. You charge up your power and then you use the Force.
I don't even understand what the hell you're suggesting with that quote. Calling on the Force is what you do any time you use the Force. It doesn't mean anything. He called on the Force when he was charging up his power too.
Jesus your arguments in this thread are awful.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The energy itself was released between Revan and Vitiate, as the quote says.
The fact Revan was only sent staggering back while Vitiate was sent flying suggests it was directed at Vitiate.
Otherwise, they both would have been thrown backwards. Just logical sense, to be honest. 😬[/b]
Unless one of them... had most of his power diverted elsewhere and couldn't properly defend himself. Hmmm, naw thats crazy.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
😕 Doesn't matter. The attack is still canonically extremely fast, considering the fight in large.
Logically, if the attack was slow, Vitiate could have just directed some of his other energy to defend himself against it. He didn't.
I never stated it was slow.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Big difference. Drawing on it doesn't mean she harnesses it's complete power.
Darth Malak drew on the power of the entire Star Forge and the star, but didn't have all that power. Otherwise, he would have been invincible.[/b]
Ok, so you agree with me then? Zannah wasn't drawing on her full potential like you said she was. So therefore it's entirely reasonable to think she can replicate the feat as a Sith Lord.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Malachor was a Force Wound that ****ed up the entire planet and echo'd with all the death throughout the galaxy. Not really the same thing. It's like comparing a disease of a knife wound.