Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma vs Count Dooku and Asajj Ventress

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah lets just ignore Dooku fending off Mace, or Dooku consistently out sparring Mace who literally invented his own form of lightsaber combat. Lets also ignore the fact that Sidious all but outright stated that Maul is inferior to Dooku as an apprentice. Maul, who even Darth Plagueis commented on his raw skill, Maul who demolished one of the most skilled battlemasters in the Order's History, Maul who combined Tera Kasi, Juyo, AND Exar Kun's Niman.

Nothing which indicates Dooku is far above Kun. I take all of that into consideration when judging. You on the other hand are just ignoring everything about Kun's skill and blindly saying Dooku wins because he's really good. Well so is Kun. Nothing you just said doesn't apply to him as well.

Also Maul didn't combine Kun's Niman. Just because he based his lightsaber design on his means nothing. And just because Maul is inferior as an apprentice doesn't mean he's inferior as a swordsman.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Prove he knew the technique while he was alive. Scratch that, prove that he could use the technique while he was still alive.

I don't need to prove it. It's readily apparent that there's no possible source for him to learn the technique after his death. And there's no techniques that can only be used as a spirit.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
>Dueling Windu for more than 30 seconds.
>Being considered dangerous by Sidious.
>Being capable of possessing Dooku.
>Making Savage from roughly on par with Ventress in H2H to WAY above her via ritual.
>Teleportation
>Being outright stated by Sidious that she's too powerful to send an army after her.

And we are likely going to get even more feats for her soon.

And yet again, all of that would apply to Kun as well. He could easily duel Windu for 30 seconds, he would easily be considered dangerous by Sidious, he would easily screw Dooku with a ritual, he has empowered people with the Force, teleportation ok whatever, and he's too powerful to send an army against him.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I put Kun as roughly equal to Anakin. Ulic is slightly below Anakin though. He's not really shown anything in the area of force defences.

Kun would blow Anakin away. And Ulic hasn't shown force defenses? Lolwut, he has better defenses than Anakin does. He deflected cannon fire from a basalisk war droid with a force shield. And didn't he resist the power of King Ommin, who pwned Arca Jeth, Nomi Sunrider and several other Jedi at once? Plus he has his own amulet, remember.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nothing which indicates Dooku is far above Kun. I take all of that into consideration when judging. You on the other hand are just ignoring everything about Kun's skill and blindly saying Dooku wins because he's really good. Well so is Kun. Nothing you just said doesn't apply to him as well.

Except he is a superior swordsman. Dude I have an open ear hear. All you have done is stated 'Well Kun can do that too.' You are claiming that I am blindly stating Dooku wins without even formulating a reasonable argument as to why Kun wins. I've already addressed the Vodo situation. The man lost because he stupidly used a ****ing cane against the DLOTS.

Also Maul didn't combine Kun's Niman. Just because he based his lightsaber design on his means nothing. And just because Maul is inferior as an apprentice doesn't mean he's inferior as a swordsman.

Actually it does. Sabers are designed specifically for the style.

I don't need to prove it. It's readily apparent that there's no possible source for him to learn the technique after his death. And there's no techniques that can only be used as a spirit.

Are you serious? Qui-Gon learned it after he'd died.

And yet again, all of that would apply to Kun as well. He could sily duel Windu for 30 seconds, he would easily be considered dangerous by Sidious, he would easily screw Dooku with a ritual, he has empowered people with the Force, teleportation ok whatever, and he's too powerful to send an army against him.

Yes your argument so far has balled down to 'yeah but Kun can do that too.' I am asking you to provide your own accolades, feats, ect. not regurgitate mine in an annoying way.

Kun would blow Anakin away. And Ulic hasn't shown force defenses? Lolwut, he has better defenses than Anakin does. He deflected cannon fire from a basalisk war droid with a force shield. And didn't he resist the power of King Ommin, who pwned Arca Jeth, Nomi Sunrider and several other Jedi at once? Plus he has his own amulet, remember.

No one who isn't a top tier would 'blow Anakin away'. Arca Jeth and barely trained Nomi are not impressive at all. Jeth lost to a bloody droid. Deflecting cannon fire from an outdated war droid is hardly compelling proof. And I swear these amulets must be the most overhyped piece of the Star Wars universe on these boards.

Stark, Exar Kun has displayed feats of Force power (Force draining millions of Massassi/instantly putting hundreds of thousands of senators in a stasis field) and technical brilliance with a lightsaber (defeated a centuries old battlemaster in a lightsaber duel while still a padawan, inventing his own form from scratch that was more advanced than the regular seven forms, that also had the added advantage of dying with him (meaning later generations would have no familiarity with it)) that vastly outstrip those displayed by Dooku or any of his contemporaries.

Ulic himself has perhaps the single greatest feat of technical brilliance with a lightsaber (holding off an extremely powerful Jedi in a lightsaber duel after having been cut off from the Force, not having trained with the weapon for years and physically past his prime), was arguably of comparable power to Exar (was, like Exar, both extremely strong in the Force and possessive of a Sith amulet that drastically increased his powers, and to the eyes of Aleema, was seen to be radiating darkside energies in a manner comparable to Exar), and fought evenly with Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel (and would have for hours according to the text) while physically injured and having been recuperating (this also implies that Exar wouldn't have simply been able to dominate him with the Force).

Either Exar or Ulic would solo this pretty easily.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Stark, Exar Kun has displayed feats of Force power (Force draining millions of Massassi/instantly putting hundreds of thousands of senators in a stasis field) and technical brilliance with a lightsaber (defeated a centuries old battlemaster in a lightsaber duel while still a padawan, inventing his own form from scratch that was more advanced than the regular seven forms, that also had the added advantage of dying with him (meaning later generations would have no familiarity with it)) that vastly outstrip those displayed by Dooku or any of his contemporaries.

Some of these seem to be exaggerations and...sorry but Vodo isn't impressive at all. Not against someone who has fought on par with the likes of Mace Windu and Yoda.

The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."- Master Yoda, Dark Rendezvous.

"His knowledge of the Force was…unique."- Jocasta Nu, Attack of the Clones Novelization

"Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith..."-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

"Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy..."-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

"He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history..."-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."---taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light."- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

"Dooku was said to be one of the Order's finest lightsaber masters, and he had earned a reputation as a skilled diplomat, as well."-Darth Plagueis

"...the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies..."-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Ulic himself has perhaps the single greatest feat of technical brilliance with a lightsaber (holding off an extremely powerful Jedi in a lightsaber duel after having been cut off from the Force, not having trained with the weapon for years and physically past his prime), was arguably of comparable power to Exar (was, like Exar, both extremely strong in the Force and possessive of a Sith amulet that drastically increased his powers, and to the eyes of Aleema, was seen to be radiating darkside energies in a manner comparable to Exar), and fought evenly with Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel (and would have for hours according to the text) while physically injured and having been recuperating (this also implies that Exar wouldn't have simply been able to dominate him with the Force).

What's your point? Jango Fett owned 5 Jedi with his bare hands. And how powerful is this 'extremely powerful' Jedi. Seriously if Ulic's best feat is "holding off some mook while cut off from the force" that's childsplay compared to Dooku. Dooku held off three formidable combatants while blinded and drugged.

Look I can see why you'd believe Exar and Ulic would win, but I disagree. Alot of Exar's hype comes from the age old view that Vodo is up there with Yoda and Mace. He's not, especially not with his stick.

Either Exar or Ulic would solo this pretty easily.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Except he is a superior swordsman. Dude I have an open ear hear. All you have done is stated 'Well Kun can do that too.' You are claiming that I am blindly stating Dooku wins without even formulating a reasonable argument as to why Kun wins. I've already addressed the Vodo situation. The man lost because he stupidly used a ****ing cane against the DLOTS.

I've stated why Kun wins in my first post though. His amulets give him a huge advantage with a spammable, ever increasing powerful beam attack and his sorcery is something Dooku will have a problem with. If he can rip out Luke Skywalkers soul, he can do so to Dooku as well.

Well you're obviously not disagreeing with me that Kun can equal all of Dooku's feats since I see no rebuttal. Therefore I see no basis to think Dooku is his superior in lightsaber combat. And I haven't just stated that, I listed the evidence for his skill which you didn't offer a rebuttal for either. It's not my fault for assuming you're not being open when you go into the thread stating that Ulic and Kun have "literally nothing" in their corner and then ignore the evidence when I present it. 😬

Vodo lost because Kun was strong enough to snap his cane in half even though the cane was imbued with the strength of a lightsaber blade. It wasn't stupidity, Kun was just that strong.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Actually it does. Sabers are designed specifically for the style.

No it doesn't. Zannah also based her lightsaber of Exar Kun's and she didn't even use Niman. Although she probably should have. mmm

Exar Kun's form of Niman was unique and Maul has no way of learning his style.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? Qui-Gon learned it after he'd died.

He had help from the Whills. And according to Wookieepedia he learned that well before his death. Also that's purely a technique to do with his own transcendence. There's no possibility for Kun to learn how to rip peoples souls out when he has no people near him for his 4000 year isolation.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes your argument so far has balled down to 'yeah but Kun can do that too.' I am asking you to provide your own accolades, feats, ect. not regurgitate mine in an annoying way.

Whats the point, you already know all his feats? I have actually posted quite a few feats for him. I pointed out his relevant lightsaber shows to prove he's on Dooku's level, I pointed out that he ripped Lukes soul from his body and can likely do the same to Dooku and posted about him freezing thousands of people with sorcery to prove his ability with it is up to the level that Dooku can't deal with. What else even is there? Do you want me to post about his amulets? That's the only thing I haven't already supplied to you.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No one who isn't a top tier would 'blow Anakin away'. Arca Jeth and barely trained Nomi are not impressive at all. Jeth lost to a bloody droid. Deflecting cannon fire from an outdated war droid is hardly compelling proof. And I swear these amulets must be the most overhyped piece of the Star Wars universe on these boards.

Yes, I know. That's why I said Kun would do that. 😉

Saying Arca Jeth wasn't impressive is amusing, given he was one of the most powerful, skilled and prominent Jedi of his era and notable enough to have his knowledge added to the Noeticon. He was shot in the back, if that's bad Sidious sucks too. Even the best Jedi can leave their guards down. And the best Sith, like Vitiate, Vader, Maul and Sidious.

Anyway it doesn't matter since Ommin was holding back EIGHT Jedi with his power and Ulic was the only one who managed to push through and kill him. Don't underestimate Ulic, he's undoubtedly the second most powerful Force Wielder of his era.

I can't believe you're brushing off deflecting heavy cannon fire though. Lame. 🙄

The amulets are OP, its hard to argue otherwise. The Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger made Haazen borderline untouchable. Then there's Muur and Kun's amulets, which were boss as hell. The Ancient Sith were like the Star Wars version of dwarves. They make some good shit. Ulic was already the most powerful Jedi in the order outside of Kun himself (even better than Nomi), but his amulet focuses his power and makes him even greater.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
[B]Some of these seem to be exaggerations and...

Nope, if anything I lowballed the numbers.

sorry but Vodo isn't impressive at all. Not against someone who has fought on par with the likes of Mace Windu and Yoda.

Vodo was a centuries old battlemaster and one of the most highly respected Jedi of the era, and Exar Kun defeated him while he was a padawan. The idea that Vodo, much less the feat, isn't impressive doesn't compute.

The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."- Master Yoda, Dark Rendezvous.

"His knowledge of the Force was…unique."- Jocasta Nu, Attack of the Clones Novelization

"Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith..."-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

"Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy..."-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

"He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history..."-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."---taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light."- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

"Dooku was said to be one of the Order's finest lightsaber masters, and he had earned a reputation as a skilled diplomat, as well."-Darth Plagueis

"...the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies..."-Revenge of the Sith Novelization

So a bunch of vague, arguably hyperbolic quotes in any way compares to the tangible feats performed by Exar that utterly eclipse anything we've ever seen from Dooku or his superiors?

Please. Dooku is not a top tier Force User. He's good but he doesn't compete with the best. He's utterly eclipsed by Yoda, Sidious, and Talzin it seems (he's been completely dominated by the latter two), and you could argue that he would be rivalled by the likes of Master Fay, Kar Vastor and Mace Windu. Exar and Ulic have a far better standing in their era (#1 and #2 respectively).

What's your point? Jango Fett owned 5 Jedi with his bare hands.

And Jango Fett is one of the most skilled combatants that we've ever seen... make the manner in which he defeated those Jedi applicable to lightsaber combat, and then give him the Force Powers of Ulic freaking Qel-Droma and a lifetime to grow accustomed to them, and you're looking at an absolutely scary lightsaber practitioner.

And how powerful is this 'extremely powerful' Jedi. Seriously if Ulic's best feat is "holding off some mook while cut off from the force" that's childsplay compared to Dooku.

No it wouldn't be, doing it to even a no-name Jedi would be extremely impressive and far beyond anything Dooku has done, from a technical standpoint.

The Jedi that Ulic fought evenly with was Sylvar, who was not only one of the more prominent Jedi heroes of the war (arguably the most gifted after Ulic, Exar, and Nomi), but has such feats as masking her presence and knocking out Oss Wilum (another exceptional Jedi from that time period) and slicing through multiple Massassi warriors (stated to be strong in the darkside and highly trained warriors) at once without the use of her lightsaber.

Dooku held off three formidable combatants while blinded and drugged.

Which is certainly comparable to being cut off from the Force.

And yes, I didn't even bring up the fact that not only does Exar possess arguably the most powerful attack that can be used in a duel (the amulet blasts) but as Nephthys has pointed out he also possesses some of the more esoteric attacks as well.

Arguably the most powerful attack that can be used in a duel? laughing

It doubles in power with each blast and it started with vaping Massassi and blowing up walls.

Doubles in power with each blast? I don't recall that.

Again, his blasts on a powerful Nexus of Dark Energy were pretty destructive, outside of one his blasts did little more than knock Aleema Keto unconscious for something like a minute.

Which seems like an inconsistency, because even Keto was capable of reducing a human being to a charred corpse.

"With every pulse of his anger, the amulet doubles the power of it's discharge!"

Aleema Keto was pretty powerful. She was turning people into charred husks with a flick of her wrist, creating illusions that hurt and killed people and she created an illusionary army with a focus. That she wasn't hurt more only indicates he didn't intend her serious harm or that she blunted the attack.

There's no indication that the nexus would have affected anything.

We can't say that he was doing anything more than toying with Aleema, given that she was basically of no consequence to him and Ulic was his actual target.

Originally posted by Nephthys
"With every pulse of his anger, the amulet doubles the power of it's discharge!"

Aleema Keto was pretty powerful. She was turning people into charred husks with a flick of her wrist, creating illusions that hurt and killed people and she created an illusionary army with a focus. That she wasn't hurt more only indicates he didn't intend her serious harm or that she blunted the attack.

There's no indication that the nexus would have affected anything.

You should post that scan where she turned that servant into a charred skeleton

Also there as Neph noted the with that quote, here is another to prove that a nexus wasnt involved with the discharge of Kun's blast.

I'm thinking the manner in which the amulets exponentially increase in power the more Exar focuses his rage, would be of infinitely greater significance than a nexus that is not once mentioned as having any role in the text as the amulet's awesome power is being described.

A nexus hasn't ever really shown to even so much as double a character's power, and a nexus didn't even amp Dooku to a high enough level to enable him to defeat Yoda.

This:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Arguably the most powerful attack that can be used in a duel? laughing

The manner in which it increases in power exponentially with each blast, the nature of the attack (energy based, and covering incredibly large volumes) and the ease with which it can be used in combat, what we've seen it do when Exar Kun first started using them and on an early discharge, would all suggest that it is arguably the most powerful and effective attack to use in close range combat. I'd be interested to see what you would suggest is...

Originally posted by Nephthys
I've stated why Kun wins in my first post though. His amulets give him a huge advantage with a spammable, ever increasing powerful beam attack and his sorcery is something Dooku will have a problem with. If he can rip out Luke Skywalkers soul, he can do so to Dooku as well.

Right...a

Well you're obviously not disagreeing with me that Kun can equal all of Dooku's feats since I see no rebuttal. Therefore I see no basis to think Dooku is his superior in lightsaber combat. And I haven't just stated that, I listed the evidence for his skill which you didn't offer a rebuttal for either. It's not my fault for assuming you're not being open when you go into the thread stating that Ulic and Kun have "literally nothing" in their corner and then ignore the evidence when I present it. 😬

Dooku is his great superior in lightsaber combat.

Vodo lost because Kun was strong enough to snap his cane in half even though the cane was imbued with the strength of a lightsaber blade. It wasn't stupidity, Kun was just that strong.

Obviously not because you can't cut through a lightsaber blade chuckles.

No it doesn't. Zannah also based her lightsaber of Exar Kun's and she didn't even use Niman. Although she probably should have. mmm

And yet we know Maul did utilize Niman. It'd be like someone replicating Dooku's saber and practicing Makashi, then saying they aren't using Dooku's Makashi.

Exar Kun's form of Niman was unique and Maul has no way of learning his style.

Unique how?

He had help from the Whills. And according to Wookieepedia he learned that well before his death. Also that's purely a technique to do with his own transcendence. There's no possibility for Kun to learn how to rip peoples souls out when he has no people near him for his 4000 year isolation.

Overridden by TCWs showing how Yoda learned the ability to become one with the force.

Whats the point, you already know all his feats? I have actually posted quite a few feats for him. I pointed out his relevant lightsaber shows to prove he's on Dooku's level, I pointed out that he ripped Lukes soul from his body and can likely do the same to Dooku and posted about him freezing thousands of people with sorcery to prove his ability with it is up to the level that Dooku can't deal with. What else even is there? Do you want me to post about his amulets? That's the only thing I haven't already supplied to you.

So defeating Vodo makes him superior to Dooku? Nope. so many things wrong with this. Darth Maul also pwned a battlemaster but he isn't superior to Dooku.

Yes, I know. That's why I said Kun would do that. 😉

Saying Arca Jeth wasn't impressive is amusing, given he was one of the most powerful, skilled and prominent Jedi of his era and notable enough to have his knowledge added to the Noeticon. He was shot in the back, if that's bad Sidious sucks too. Even the best Jedi can leave their guards down. And the best Sith, like Vitiate, Vader, Maul and Sidious.

So was Vandar Tokare, and neither of them have impressive feats. They have enough hype to put them on the level of other legendary masters like Saesee Tiin, but not nearly enough to put them anywhere close to Dooku's level.

Anyway it doesn't matter since Ommin was holding back EIGHT Jedi with his power and Ulic was the only one who managed to push through and kill him. Don't underestimate Ulic, he's undoubtedly the second most powerful Force Wielder of his era.

Eight Jedi...so what? None of them are impressive. And Malak is the second most powerful of his and yet I would never put him above Dooku.

I can't believe you're brushing off deflecting heavy cannon fire though. Lame. 🙄

Considering Anakin casually dismantles these and deflects their fire. Yes I am.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tri-Droid

The amulets are OP, its hard to argue otherwise. The Gauntlet of Kressh the Younger made Haazen borderline untouchable. Then there's Muur and Kun's amulets, which were boss as hell. The Ancient Sith were like the Star Wars version of dwarves. They make some good shit. Ulic was already the most powerful Jedi in the order outside of Kun himself (even better than Nomi), but his amulet focuses his power and makes him even greater.

Sorry, but they don't have feats that make them more impressive than Force Lightning displays.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
I'm thinking the manner in which the amulets exponentially increase in power the more Exar focuses his rage, would be of infinitely greater significance than a nexus that is not once mentioned as having any role in the text as the amulet's awesome power is being described.

A nexus hasn't ever really shown to even so much as double a character's power, and a nexus didn't even amp Dooku to a high enough level to enable him to defeat Yoda.