Originally posted by Lord Stark
No. It really isn't. "Twice as powerful" is a commonly used hyperbole. Let me give you an example.
"My powers have doubled since the last time we met count."
Except the exact phrase is 'the amulet doubles the power of its discharge." There's nothing hyperbolic about it, its simply describing the function of the amulet.
Also that's Anakin boasting, not the omniscient narration as in the Kun case.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not necessarily considering soul ****ing has nothing to do with the physical plane.
Conceded.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not in raw sabers.
The feats don't support that assertion.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
His one feat isn't impressive enough to put him above Darth Maul in raw sabers let alone Dooku.
It's not his only feat. He drew with Ulic as well, remember?
Originally posted by Lord Stark
No it was cited several times as fact.
Wasn't it only stated as fact that they'd sparred? Also that could have been before Qui-Gon declined.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Which is more hype than Vodo has.
Lol, no it isn't. Sparring with someone once means **** all.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wall_of_light
You think everyone on that list of practitioners is a high tier force user?
Probably. Some of them have displayed over high end force abilities like deflecting blaster bolts with their hands.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ulic would lose to Dooku.
In your opinion. I put them rather close. Ulic is more powerful than people give him credit for.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
No, he cannot use techniques he showed post mortem. Soul ripping as a soul is because he's not attached to the physical plane. If he could just soul rip anyone why didn't he do it while he was alive. And no, what person of Dooku's level has been killed by amulet blasts?
The soul can be affected while attached to the physical plane. Nox does it in Swtor and ghosts such as Kun can be affected by Force users, like when Kun killed Nadd's spirit. I already suggested why he didn't do it while he was alive, he could have learned it from the knowledge he stole from Ossus. Your mum. That's a dumb argument. Who has Sidious killed who's Dooku level with lightning? No-one, but he'd still freaking do it. Kun's amulets are powerful enough to severely impact the fight or outright overpower Dooku.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eh, TK.
Regardless, Ommin was a badass.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
We've been over this.He blasts the woman in front of him and several Kiffar around him.
Yeah, we have. And killing a bunch of mooks with no ability to resist his attack means nothing. The only reason it would be impressive is if they had some way of defending themselves with the Force, so that Dooku would then be actually overpowering them at the same time. Since they don't, it's no different from killing some stormtroopers.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nope, not at all. You can clearly see Dooku's lightning hitting it. Not to mention its the same animation as used during gameplay.
You can also see lightning spiralling around the structure independent of Dooku. At best he damaged it.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah the Count's explosions were larger.
No, it wasn't. I've compared them.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Chipped a wall? When. Also why is that a negative?
AotC. His lightning is reflected into a wall and a bit of it flies off. It's a negative because you were acting like the Basalisk's cannon sucked when all they did was destroy a chain, but Dooku's lightning did less damage to a stone wall than Mandalore did to a giant metal chain. Metal > rock.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That was all of them combining their power, wasn't it? I mean, aren't these the same guys who pushed a fleet out of a solar system by combining power?
Pretty sure they were different Jedi, and that there were more of them. At this point the Jedi in question really seemed to be pathetic teenagers with Force Powers. The Jedi that ended up vanquishing Exar Kun was a group of eight or so Padawans.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Except the exact phrase is 'the amulet doubles the power of its discharge." There's nothing hyperbolic about it, its simply describing the function of the amulet.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The term 'doubles the power' or 'gets twice as strong' is a commonly used hyperbole.
Also that's Anakin boasting, not the omniscient narration as in the Kun case.
My point is that its a fallacious statement. There's literally no way that every time its fired it doubles in power. That doesn't even make logical sense.
Conceded.
See, this is why I enjoy discussions with you.
The feats don't support that assertion.
Yeah it does. Ulic has one good feat. Dooku has several including dueling Yoda to a standstill.
It's not his only feat. He drew with Ulic as well, remember?
Which is circular logic...Ulic's best feat is dueling on par with Exar Kun, who's best feat is dueling on par with Ulic. Both of which have a singular impressive feat outside of this showing. Neither of them did things that Dooku couldn't do better.
Wasn't it only stated as fact that they'd sparred? Also that could have been before Qui-Gon declined.
It was never stated, period.
Lol, no it isn't. Sparring with someone once means **** all.
What does Vodo have that puts him so high on the tier list?
Probably. Some of them have displayed over high end force abilities like deflecting blaster bolts with their hands.
As already stated Padawans are on that list...so no its not that impressive.
In your opinion. I put them rather close. Ulic is more powerful than people give him credit for.
Not really, his best feat is fighting on par with Exar before his peak.
The soul can be affected while attached to the physical plane. Nox does it in Swtor and ghosts such as Kun can be affected by Force users, like when Kun killed Nadd's spirit. I already suggested why he didn't do it while he was alive, he could have learned it from the knowledge he stole from Ossus. Your mum. That's a dumb argument. Who has Sidious killed who's Dooku level with lightning? No-one, but he'd still freaking do it. Kun's amulets are powerful enough to severely impact the fight or outright overpower Dooku.
Its made pretty clear that Nox is unique via Force Walk.
Uh Mace ****ing Windu and Darth Vader? Not good enough? Darth Plagueis the Wise. That's why Sidious' lightning is so hyped, it gets powerscaling from people like Galen Marek.
Regardless, Ommin was a badass.
Yeah, we have. And killing a bunch of mooks with no ability to resist his attack means nothing. The only reason it would be impressive is if they had some way of defending themselves with the Force, so that Dooku would then be actually overpowering them at the same time. Since they don't, it's no different from killing some stormtroopers.
You act as though any of those people have shown a defense against lightning. Someone awhile back even stated that even the most powerful Jedi Masters have trouble deflecting lightning.
You can also see lightning spiralling around the structure independent of Dooku. At best he damaged it.
Uhhh who says its independent of Dooku?
No, it wasn't. I've compared them.
I was in that thread and you were wrong.
AotC. His lightning is reflected into a wall and a bit of it flies off. It's a negative because you were acting like the Basalisk's cannon sucked when all they did was destroy a chain, but Dooku's lightning did less damage to a stone wall than Mandalore did to a giant metal chain. Metal > rock. [/B]
Low end showing considering the explosion in AOTCs.
Neither of them did things that Dooku couldn't do better.
They both have but you're just choosing to ignore the evidence we're presenting which is why I stopped posting.
Dooku does not have the standing in his era that Exar and Ulic do, he hasn't demonstrated powers over the same scale that Exar has, nor has he demonstrated the absurdly high level of skill required to invent his own lightsaber form (one that was superior to the existing forms) or duel an impressive Jedi while cut off from the Force.
Exar and Ulic were the undisputed #1 and #2 most powerful Force Users of the era, while Dooku got completely dominated by Talzin and Sidious, could not defeat Yoda while on a nexus (where his powers were explicitly stated to have been much greater), got destroyed by Anakin (while he is the chosen one he is still nowhere near his full potential), you'd have to put Mace Windu above him when equipped with the full power of Vaapad and Shatterpoint (as it helped him compete with and defeat Sidious, Dooku's clear better), and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Fay, Kar Vastor and Volfe Karkko were more powerful as well, not to mention Plageius who would be his clear superior as well. There is nothing to suggest that his technical ability with a lightsaber is even close to the duo's, and he's never reached the heights that Exar has with his Force powers (while Ulic at the very least is implied to be comparably as powerful, both by Aleema's perception of how strong they were in the darkside, having his already extraordinary potential boosted by a powerful sith amulet, and Exar presumably not being able to simply overpower him with the Force).
Dooku is simply outclassed, and is not remotely in the same league as them. Exar and Ulic vs Yoda and Mace Windu or Sidious and Plagueis would be a thread that actually makes sense.
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
They both have but you're just choosing to ignore the evidence we're presenting which is why I stopped posting.
Which I have refuted thoroughly.
Dooku does not have the standing in his era that Exar and Ulic do, he hasn't demonstrated powers over the same scale that Exar has, nor has he demonstrated the absurdly high level of skill required to invent his own lightsaber form (one that was superior to the existing forms) or duel an impressive Jedi while cut off from the Force.
Yes he does.
1. Yoda/Sidious
2. Talzin
3. Dooku/Mace
Exar and Ulic were the undisputed #1 and #2 most powerful Force Users of the era, while Dooku got completely dominated by Talzin and Sidious, could not defeat Yoda while on a nexus (where his powers were explicitly stated to have been much greater), got destroyed by Anakin (while he is the chosen one he is still nowhere near his full potential), you'd have to put Mace Windu above him when equipped with the full power of Vaapad and Shatterpoint (as it helped him compete with and defeat Sidious, Dooku's clear better), and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Fay, Kar Vastor and Volfe Karkko were more powerful as well, not to mention Plageius who would be his clear superior as well. There is nothing to suggest that his technical ability with a lightsaber is even close to the duo's, and he's never reached the heights that Exar has with his Force powers (while Ulic at the very least is implied to be comparably as powerful, both by Aleema's perception of how strong they were in the darkside, having his already extraordinary potential boosted by a powerful sith amulet, and Exar presumably not being able to simply overpower him with the Force).
Lol he got hit by Talzin while asleep and while she had prep. Exar and Ulic would get reduced to paste by Yoda and Sidious. Kar Vastor, Fay and Volfe Karkko? Are you serious? Dooku would dominate all of them with mid-difficulty at best.
Dooku is simply outclassed, and is not remotely in the same league as them. Exar and Ulic vs Yoda and Mace Windu or Sidious and Plagueis would be a thread that actually makes sense.
Are you serious? Mace Windu and Dooku are dead equals. Your bias against Dooku is appalling.
"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."---taken from the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.
"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light."- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, IIRC the rather low-end Padawans of Luke's Jedi Praxeum was able to use Wall of Light to stop the Spectral Kun, only high-end Force Users can achieve it? Lol.
Let me just teach you about the context of the scene, given that you seem to have forgotten it.
Kun's freaking force ghost, completely "powerless" compared to the original dude, was force choking Luke's students to death collectively. They just managed to survive, because one of them had a special talent for wind manipulation and managed to force air into their lungs. Note that Kun, in the very same powerless form, had turned one of Luke's students into a charred skeleton.
Then they teamed up and joined forces, assisted by the spirits of both Vodo and Luke, in order to defeat Kun's spirit, which was - as I may remind you - chained to that very place by a similar attack conducted by the entire Jedi Order of his time. So what is your point exactly?
And since I'm already at it: Aside from the points already mentioned, you may want to consider the fact, that Kun has been labeled the "most powerful and dangerous of the Sith Lords" (Official Star Wars Fact File), which should give you a little hint of his standing compared to his peers in the Sith Order. You may want to think about the fact, that the guy had "more knowledge than he could ever use" (narrator in The Sith War comics) including pretty much everything left behind by Naga Sadow, who was labeled "one of the most powerful Sith magicians" by non other than Darth Sidious (The Essential Guide through the Force). In fact, Sidious considers the knowledge of Sadow so dangerous, that he decides to hide it away (same source).
On top of that and his formidable skill with one / two lightsabers and his unique weapon, Kun is also character possessing a freaking about of physical strength. The guy was capable to punch his fingers through the skull of the Supreme Chancellor and lift him from the ground to use him as a puppet, when the weight of the alien was suspended on Kun's fingers.
Now combine that with his rather nice arsenal of offensive force abilities (not least: his amulet) and take a look at his force defense: The "most devasting light side force technique" used against him, did nothing but put him on his ass for a few seconds. He apparently shrugged off a Sith Magic attack by Aleema Keto, who is seen to turn people to charred bones with single spells in the comic before. Kun's answer to both offenses are attacks of his own. The first apparently kills a 1,000 year old Jedi Master that battled Ancient Sith in direct confrontation. The second floors Alema Keto and renders her unconcious for a rather large period of time.
By virtue of his force abilities alone, Kun could possible solo this fight - without even igniting his lightsaber. And should he decide to duke it out in a melee, Ventress would probably not survive for more than ten seconds. Tossing Ulic into that match-up, who would probably destroy Ventress and keep Dooku busy (if not defeat him) is pretty much overkill.
Originally posted by Nai
-snip-
You are missing our point. Simply knowing how to use Wall of Light is not proof that someone is a powerful Jedi. We are talking about Exar's prowess with a lightsaber. Of which his claim to fame is defeating Vodo. Vodo is featless...so his claim to being this god with a lightsaber is bullshit. Was he a great duelist? Sure. Better than/on par with Dooku? Nope, doesn't have the feats.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The term 'doubles the power' or 'gets twice as strong' is a commonly used hyperbole.
I agree to disagree. It isn't outside of the realms of possibility that its hyperbolic, but nothing actually suggests it is imo.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
My point is that its a fallacious statement. There's literally no way that every time its fired it doubles in power. That doesn't even make logical sense.
I would imagine that it has an upper limit, true. But this is a Sith Artifact, the same things that can drain entire worlds, repel any attack, blow up stars or create illusionary armies.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah it does. Ulic has one good feat. Dooku has several including dueling Yoda to a standstill.
Ulic has more than one good feat. 😬
Dooku didn't duel Yoda to a standstill, wtf are you smoking? 😬
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Which is circular logic...Ulic's best feat is dueling on par with Exar Kun, who's best feat is dueling on par with Ulic. Both of which have a singular impressive feat outside of this showing. Neither of them did things that Dooku couldn't do better.
Ulic's best feat is dueling Sylvar while cut off from the Force, old, out of practice and injured imo.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
It was never stated, period.
Ok, thanks for the history lesson bro.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
What does Vodo have that puts him so high on the tier list?
He's a centuries old legendary weapons master and duelist, was the greatest warrior of his species who were renowned as warriors, has was incredibly fast and agile due to his 6 powerful "legs", he could shatter stone with his quarterstaff and had enough skill to find Kun's precise balance point and humble him in the midst of his assualt.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
As already stated Padawans are on that list...so no its not that impressive.
Meh.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not really, his best feat is fighting on par with Exar before his peak.
Nah.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Its made pretty clear that Nox is unique via Force Walk.
Uh Mace ****ing Windu and Darth Vader? Not good enough? Darth Plagueis the Wise. That's why Sidious' lightning is so hyped, it gets powerscaling from people like Galen Marek.
Nox didn't do it via Force Walk. Voss are also able to interact with the spiritual plane via the Force. There are many other examples I'm sure. Like Brand binding Sidious' soul to his as he's dying or the padawans attacking Kun with Wall of Light or whatever happened.
Sidious didn't kill Windu with lightning, he shoved him through a window and Vader wasn't defending himself properly and was injured and weakened.
Anyway, it doesn't freaking matter. My logic still stands. An attack that's shown to be powerful enough will affect powerful Jedi regardless of how many times it's been used in combat or against who.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
You act as though any of those people have shown a defense against lightning. Someone awhile back even stated that even the most powerful Jedi Masters have trouble deflecting lightning.
They were shown blocking blast bolts with their bare hands, something much rarer and harder to do than blocking lightning. At the least they could just use that technique. And that quote is a serious exaggeration. Loads of Jedi can do it, even padawans or relatively untrained Jedi or Sith.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Uhhh who says its independent of Dooku?
The guy with eyes? Who can see that Dooku's not using Force Lightning while its visible or active?
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I was in that thread and you were wrong.
If you want I can post both videos and we can compare. I'm confident I'm right.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Low end showing considering the explosion in AOTCs.
That was the explosion in AOTC. 😬
It barely chipped the wall.