Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When Kun used his spirit ripping technique on Luke, he was a spirit. What was Luke suppose to do to defend against it? Cut Kun's spirit down? I don't see how Kun's spirit ripping technique would come in handy while he's in physical form, being susceptible to being cut down by a saber.
Just because he couldn't affect Kun himself doesn't mean he couldn't erect Force defenses or defend himself. Its just that nothing he tried worked.
Also, looking though Advents posts suggests Jedi vs Sith as the source. I'm looking through it now.
What do you mean Kun's lightsaber will give him an edge against Dooku? Sure, each weapon has it's own ups and downs, but it's only an extension of the wielder. Unorthodoxy perhaps? Dooku has seen dealt with double bladed lightsabers before, even if they were a bit different. Conversely we've never seen Exar go against an enemy with a curved hilt blade, so what about that? There's a reason no one's arguing Dooku's going to get some significant advantage with that, because in the end the advantages the weapons pose are nothing more than personalizations to benefit the wielder's style of combat. It shouldn't affect the duel at large in the long run.
Exar Kun's blade is unique though. For one thing it's a modified single blade lightsaber, so Kun frequently uses it in just one hand, which compliments his Niman and allows him liberal amulet and Force use if he wants. No one else has ever been seen with a double-bladed lightsaber with only a single bladed hilt. It's partly why his style is unique, he uses it completely differently from everyone else. For the other thing, it's his dual-phase ability that also makes it so deadly. Did you read the above image? He can modify the size or intensity on the fly to become utterly unpredictable. Dooku might find his attack passing through Kun's blade only to have it suddenly go back to full intensity inside his guard.
I'd agree that personalised lightsabers are rarely relevant, but Kun's lightsaber is the big exception.
Well for one thing, Exar Kun has never actually used this blade's options mid combat. And even if he did, what you described is no more than a simple application of T'rakata, which Dooku would be familiar with.
Unlike the Jedi of Exar's time, Dooku and the Jedi of his time know how to deal with double bladed weapons, even if it's a personalized version I can't see it making a significant difference.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not hyperbolic. It specifically states what the amulet does with no exaggeration.
Are you serious? You don't see why "it doubles in power" can't be exaggerated?
See my thoughts above. That just proves how limited Kun was as a spirit. As a man, he'd obviously be capable of it without the nexus.
Doesn't seem so obvious to me.
Well I guess I just disagree. Ulic's feat of stalemating a pissed of Cathar Jedi 15 years out of practice is one of the bets in terms of pure swordsmanship. He and Kun were the absolute best duelists of their era. And Kun's creation of his refined Niman reinforces his mastery of the lightsaber.
I am not denying they are the best of their era. I am denying that they are better than Dooku.
Hardly the only way. Kun was kicking his ass the whole time.
And yet both times his victory was exploiting the weakness in Vodo's weapon, not his technique.
I'm getting someone incredibly smart and handsome to look into it but he suggested the KotOR Soucebook for d20 or Power of the Jedi.
A boyfriend of yours?
I can assure you it's not. I'm surprised you don't know about it. It's been discussed here for like a decade.
As was Qui-Gon being on par with Mace Windu, and we all saw how that turned out.
Anoon was a legendary weapons master in the eyes of his apprentice. He and Drallig had plenty of skill, but their power wasn't notable. Theres nothing wrong with Vodo's power, who was a master of battle meditation, wall of light and could communicate across the galaxy with the Force. /he also was able to achieve spirit form after his death.
Wasn't it stated he sparred with Mace and Qui-Gon? Neither Battle Mediation nor wall of light means you are top tier or hell even high tier.
In your opinion.
Backed by canon.
Puts him above Ventress though. 😉
I'd concede that point.
Exar Kun as the more powerful would go after Dooku while the apprentices duke it out.
While I concede that team 1 wins due to Ventress being inferior to either of the two. I do not concede that Dooku is inferior to either of them.
Lolwut? No, he wouldn't. 😬
Are you serious? General Grievous owned 5 Jedi, you really think its beyond Dooku to defeat 8?
Of course he'd own them all individually, but not combined. Dooku isn't as powerful as 8 Jedi put together, that's insane. Even Bane couldn't own that many Umbaran Assassins in RoT. Dooku owning for force sensitive proves nothing since they wouldn't have the ability to defend themselves so their ability is irrelevant.
Are you serious? 8 mook Jedi would get their asses handed to them by Dooku. A single lightning storm would be the end of them.
It being Dooku's own attack makes Yoda's contribution nil so its pointless to namedrop him. And since I'm comparing Ulic to Ventress and Anakin, not Dooku, its above anything she has done. Finally Dooku's lightning is pretty shitty so I don't think it compares to a Basalisk War Droids cannons.
Really it causes plenty of explosions in his duel with Mace and Kenobi. Anakin is superior to Ulic imo. But I do now think that Ventress would go down to Ulic before Exar goes down to Dooku.
And here. At the top. Its a bit unclear but his lightsaber isn't moving and the narration is saying that Mandalores tech is no match for the Force.
Wait a minute...does that Basalisk's laser really only destroy a chain...you compare that to Dooku's lightning?
Heh.
An OOU source, the New Essential Chronology to Weaps & Techs, says on pg 74:
"Other lightsaber variants also exist. Darth Maul's signature weapon was a double-bladed lightsaber with an oversize handle. The design for the double-bladed lightsaber originated with the fallen Jedi Exar Kun some four thousand standard years before the Battle of Naboo"
The official databank supports this. Kun developed it on his own, as the first one to make such a weapon. His style was unique because he developed the weapon with a single length hilt and wielded it in one hand, contrary to how a normal DBL works. Since he was the first one to create it and his version was unique it stands to reason he developed his own style with it. Which he of course never passed on to others.
Even if you should be correct with the (imho hilarious) assumption, that neither Kun's weapon nor style were unique and significant - you would still be confronted with the facts that:
a) Kun constructed the weapon and mastered the corresponding style in less than six months of time, which alone is enough to recall him as one of the most prodigious lightsaber wielders in the saga.
b) That his weapon still offers some nice advantages in terms of combat (altering the intensity / length of the blades etc.).
c) Kun is more powerful than Dooku in the Force. Any disadvantage in skill would be made up there.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? You don't see why "it doubles in power" can't be exaggerated?
Yes, since that's an exact statement as opposed to hyperbole which is obvious and fanciful exaggeration.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Doesn't seem so obvious to me.
If he needed to draw on several sources to even affect the physical world then he wouldn't be able to affect it at his standard ability, would he?
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I am not denying they are the best of their era. I am denying that they are better than Dooku.
And again, I never said they were better than Dooku. I said they were every bit his equal. Do you deny that is a possibility?
Originally posted by Lord Stark
And yet both times his victory was exploiting the weakness in Vodo's weapon, not his technique.
So.....
Originally posted by Lord Stark
A boyfriend of yours?
Just Janus.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
As was Qui-Gon being on par with Mace Windu, and we all saw how that turned out.
Well that was an estimation of their abilities, not a fact about them.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Wasn't it stated he sparred with Mace and Qui-Gon? Neither Battle Mediation nor wall of light means you are top tier or hell even high tier.
It was stated the his apprentice thought he was unmatched in lightsaber skill, but that he'd disagree since he'd fought Qui-Gon "a time or two" and sparred with Mace once.
Both of them are very advanced Force powers that show significant force mastery.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Backed by canon.
By your interpretation of it.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
While I concede that team 1 wins due to Ventress being inferior to either of the two. I do not concede that Dooku is inferior to either of them.
I'm still waiting to hear what his response to sorcery is. You've pretty much admitted that theres no way he could learn his soul ripping technique after his death so he has it here and Dooku has no known defense against it. Kun could also incinerate him from the inside like he did Gantoris.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? General Grievous owned 5 Jedi, you really think its beyond Dooku to defeat 8?
Of course he can defeat 8 Jedi. I'm just saying that he can't defeat them all at the same time with one Force attack, since he doesn't wield the power of 8 Jedi Knights combined.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? 8 mook Jedi would get their asses handed to them by Dooku. A single lightning storm would be the end of them.
Bullshit. Nothing Dooku has done remotely suggests he can do that. He is not as powerful as them put together.
Also Dooku can't do lightning storm. 😬
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Really it causes plenty of explosions in his duel with Mace and Kenobi. Anakin is superior to Ulic imo. But I do now think that Ventress would go down to Ulic before Exar goes down to Dooku.
Which was more likely done by the machinery itself, not Dooku.
Also causing some explosions is weak sauce lightning. Nox and Thanaton were doing that as barely christened Sith.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Wait a minute...does that Basalisk's laser really only destroy a chain...you compare that to Dooku's lightning?
Considering Dooku's lightning barely chipped a wall, hell yeah. 😬
And neither Anakin nor Ventress could block Dooku's lightning with a Force Shield.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, since that's an exact statement as opposed to hyperbole which is obvious and fanciful exaggeration.
No. It really isn't. "Twice as powerful" is a commonly used hyperbole. Let me give you an example.
"My powers have doubled since the last time we met count."
If he needed to draw on several sources to even affect the physical world then he wouldn't be able to affect it at his standard ability, would he?
Not necessarily considering soul ****ing has nothing to do with the physical plane.
And again, I never said they were better than Dooku. I said they were every bit his equal. Do you deny that is a possibility?
Not in raw sabers.
So.....
His one feat isn't impressive enough to put him above Darth Maul in raw sabers let alone Dooku.
Well that was an estimation of their abilities, not a fact about them.
No it was cited several times as fact.
It was stated the his apprentice thought he was unmatched in lightsaber skill, but that he'd disagree since he'd fought Qui-Gon "a time or two" and sparred with Mace once.
Which is more hype than Vodo has.
Both of them are very advanced Force powers that show significant force mastery.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wall_of_light
You think everyone on that list of practitioners is a high tier force user?
By your interpretation of it.
Ulic would lose to Dooku.
I'm still waiting to hear what his response to sorcery is. You've pretty much admitted that theres no way he could learn his soul ripping technique after his death so he has it here and Dooku has no known defense against it. Kun could also incinerate him from the inside like he did Gantoris.
No, he cannot use techniques he showed post mortem. Soul ripping as a soul is because he's not attached to the physical plane. If he could just soul rip anyone why didn't he do it while he was alive. And no, what person of Dooku's level has been killed by amulet blasts?
Of course he can defeat 8 Jedi. I'm just saying that he can't defeat them all at the same time with one Force attack, since he doesn't wield the power of 8 Jedi Knights combined.
Eh, TK.
Bullshit. Nothing Dooku has done remotely suggests he can do that. He is not as powerful as them put together.Also Dooku can't do lightning storm. 😬
We've been over this.
He blasts the woman in front of him and several Kiffar around him.
Which was more likely done by the machinery itself, not Dooku.
Nope, not at all. You can clearly see Dooku's lightning hitting it. Not to mention its the same animation as used during gameplay.
Also causing some explosions is weak sauce lightning. Nox and Thanaton were doing that as barely christened Sith.
Yeah the Count's explosions were larger.
Considering Dooku's lightning barely chipped a wall, hell yeah. 😬And neither Anakin nor Ventress could block Dooku's lightning with a Force Shield.
Chipped a wall? When. Also why is that a negative?
And I'd like your thoughts on the Exar Kun vs Dooku thread.
Also, don't expect to try to start debate with me on my thoughts, for I don't really care for these characters, especially Ventress.
With that out of the way, here is my thoughts. Note that there might be some mumbling and such because I'm writing off the top of my head unlike my usual planned responses:
For one, it's silly to think Droma can defeat Dooku easily as Astor Ebligis said, especially when he can't do it at all. Don't get me wrong, Ulic is a highly capable Jedi and is stated to be among the most powerful Sith Lords in the mythos. I even planned to create a Respect Thread for him after re-reading Tales of the Jedi and related sources for my Nomi Sunrider Respect Thread, however nothing I found put him on Dooku level. In fact, I was actually annoyed how he was represented in the final comics. He should have been the one pushing back Sylvar, hell he should have beat her for that matter. I understand he did not have the Force, but so what? If his raw combat skill is only good enough to put him Sylvar level, how is that impressive? Yes, I understand precognition, amplified speed, etc, however numerous non-Force sensitives have been able to duel with Force Sensitives over the mythos, and some have showcased themselves better then Droma did. For me personally, I look toward his duel with Kun as his best showcase. Kun is Droma's superior with a blade, that much I don't really think is much of a debate when it was stated in either the last comic of the Droma arc or the first comic of the Kun arc, and though I forget the exact one, my point stands. Droma fighting relatively equal with Kun is a demonstration of how he can hold his own very skilly against the higher tiers, and this is keen to look at if he would have to face Dooku in this matchup. However, he will most likely be the one who engages Ventress, because I am sure Kun wants the prize to himself.
Droma is Ventress's superior, though it is in no means a stomp. She has demonstrated her martial prowess by single-handily fighting off the Skywalker/Kenobi duo, along with defeating Grievous and holding her own against Dooku *much* better then I thought she would. However, she doesn't necessarily have the raw power Kun possesses, nor the capabilities that puts her on his level. I will now motion to Droma's blocking off the Mando. War Droid's gun fire through either a Force Barrier, Lightsaber Prowess, or the most common opinion: both. I just don't think Ventress can handle that much raw power, and shown in her later fights Skywalker, most noticeably Seasons 4 and 5. Also in I believe the Tales of the Jedi Companion, or something similar, it brought in context that to reach King Ommin, Ulic and friends had to cut through a shit ton of Dark Jedi and War Droids. And if you look back at the comic depiction, it is quite obviously Droma is doing pratically *all* the heavy lifting. I also like Q99's example on another topic to Fay, and his comparison of her to Sunrider. The fact that Tales of the Jedi seemingly always portrayed Droma as the more capable warrior of the pair, with the feats and hype Ulic possesses himself, I feel he can defeat Ventress probably faster then whoever wins the Kun/Dooku duel.
Exar and the Count is another fight on its own, and a very close fight indeed.
"Count Dooku's calm and measured moves make him a master of Makashi. However, the form lacks great power and Dooku met his match against the force of Anakin Skywalker's style."
I feel this quote is important, and a key factor in who would win such a matchup. Oddly enough despite Niman's purpose, Kun uses it very aggressively with raw strength echoing in each attacks. To be fair, both of his matches against Vodo, despite the fact he could have probably won a little later through superior skill, was by strength:
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/blz2810.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/blz2511.jpg
And unlike Savage or other powerhouses of strength, Kun is still a master of lightsaber combat comparable if not equals or greater to Skywalker. I can see Kun reenacting the Episode 3 duel, though it will be severely close.
Team 1 takes this for the gap between Ventress and Droma not being large enough to support Dooku.
Edit: Woah, Neph that scan you posted of Kun's lightsaber has some great accolades for Kun. 👆 Do they have anything about Revan in that book?
Originally posted by Nephthys
One correction: Ulic IS Kun's equal with a saber. It's stated in a few sources that Ragnos interrupted the fight because it would have gone on for hours and left both of them dead.Also, I recall Ulic blitzing Warb Null? Which would be pretty neat.
Nice SBAHJ comic Ant. 👆
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What source is that from? A quote would be nice.' Also I'll scan you the comic on which I'm referring to Kun>Droma.
"Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith spirits, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos." - Dark Side Sourcebook, pg 76
I believe the source stating they'd kill each other is Jedi vs Sith. I read it a few days ago.
