Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Nope, if anything I lowballed the numbers.
There are only 2,000 Senators even as of AOTCs. You said "hundreds of thousands". So yeah forgive me if I doubt you on the other figure.
Vodo was a centuries old battlemaster and one of the most highly respected Jedi of the era, and Exar Kun defeated him while he was a padawan. The idea that Vodo, much less the feat, isn't impressive doesn't compute.
Cin Drallig was the battlemaster in the golden age of the Jedi, a master of all seven forms of Lightsaber combat, one of the most respected Jedi in history, described as having "nearly unparalleled" skills with a blade ...he was casually obliterated by Anakin Skywalker.
So a bunch of vague, arguably hyperbolic quotes in any way compares to the tangible feats performed by Exar that utterly eclipse anything we've ever seen from Dooku or his superiors?
Right...Tyranus regularly sparred on par with two individuals who disarmed the most powerful Sith Lord in history. That's above any of the esoteric feats performed by Exar Kun.
Please. Dooku is not a top tier Force User. He's good but he doesn't compete with the best. He's utterly eclipsed by Yoda, Sidious, and Talzin it seems (he's been completely dominated by the latter two), and you could argue that he would be rivalled by the likes of Master Fay, Kar Vastor and Mace Windu. Exar and Ulic have a far better standing in their era (#1 and #2 respectively).
Being #1 and #2 in a far less impressive era isn't impressive. You are aware that Mace Windu disarmed the most powerful Sith Lord in history right? And you are also aware that Anakin defeating Dooku was enough for Mace Windu to consider that he could be above Yoda right. Dooku was also so powerful many on the Council including Mace believed it was possible that Dooku was the Dark Lord and Maul's former Master.
And Jango Fett is one of the most skilled combatants that we've ever seen... make the manner in which he defeated those Jedi applicable to lightsaber combat, and then give him the Force Powers of Ulic freaking Qel-Droma and a lifetime to grow accustomed to them, and you're looking at an absolutely scary lightsaber practitioner.
What? No the point is non-force sensitives beat the shit out of force sensitives all the time and they aren't privy to a lifetime of training that Qel Droma was.
No it wouldn't be, doing it to even a no-name Jedi would be extremely impressive and far beyond anything Dooku has done, from a technical standpoint.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh my God you're serious aren't you?
Mate the Count has the most victories while being outnumbered in a duel than anyone in the mythos. You're talking about the master of technical saber skill.
The Jedi that Ulic fought evenly with was Sylvar, who was not only one of the more prominent Jedi heroes of the war (arguably the most gifted after Ulic, Exar, and Nomi), but has such feats as masking her presence and knocking out Oss Wilum (another exceptional Jedi from that time period) and slicing through multiple Massassi warriors (stated to be strong in the darkside and highly trained warriors) at once without the use of her lightsaber.
Was she using TK? Pre Vizla gave Maul trouble when he wasn't using the force. I don't really see your point.
Which is certainly comparable to being cut off from the Force.
Blinded and drugged? Yes. I could easily make the argument that that's worse.
Originally posted by carthage
Vandar in all honesty doesn't have any feats that Tiin does. Granted, there is nothing in Tiin's repertoire that suggests he can defeat Vodo. The same can't be said for other council members.
I could make a firm argument for Kit Fisto being able to defeat Vodo with two sabers.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
There are only 2,000 Senators even as of AOTCs. You said "hundreds of thousands". So yeah forgive me if I doubt you on the other figure.
The chamber wasn't solely filled with senators but with their aides and other dignitaries such as ambassadors.
Cin Drallig was the battlemaster in the golden age of the Jedi, a master of all seven forms of Lightsaber combat, one of the most respected Jedi in history, described as having "nearly unparalleled" skills with a blade ...he was casually obliterated by Anakin Skywalker.
That was Anakin Skywalker in his prime, not as a padawan (not even going to comment on the other little inaccuracies in that paragraph).
Right...Tyranus regularly sparred on par with two individuals who disarmed the most powerful Sith Lord in history. That's above any of the esoteric feats performed by Exar Kun.
facepalm
Being #1 and #2 in a far less impressive era isn't impressive.
It wasn't a far less impressive era. It was a time when Jedi knowledge was at a high point and Jedi were more combat oriented than the PT Jedi were.
You are aware that Mace Windu disarmed the most powerful Sith Lord in history right? And you are also aware that Anakin defeating Dooku was enough for Mace Windu to consider that he could be above Yoda right. Dooku was also so powerful many on the Council including Mace believed it was possible that Dooku was the Dark Lord and Maul's former Master.
facepalm
What? No the point is non-force sensitives beat the shit out of force sensitives all the time and they aren't privy to a lifetime of training that Qel Droma was.
It happens extremely rarely, and the point is that those few non-force sensitives are usually among the most skilled bounty hunters/warriors in the entire galaxy. If you made their skills applicable to lightsaber combat, and gifted them with Ulic Qel-Droma's power in the Force, and they'd be some of the most frightening Force Users ever. That's not even mentioning that Ulic was even further disadvantaged by having been reliant on his ability to sense the Force, and no longer had access to it.
What you don't seem to be getting is that it's an extremely good feat, and that Ulic did it without the absurdly large advantage that Force sensitivity provides.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh my God you're serious aren't you?
facepalm
Mate the Count has the most victories while being outnumbered in a duel than anyone in the mythos. You're talking about the master of technical saber skill.
The Jedi of that era in general have more feats than people from other eras. The PT era has been more heavily explored than any other in the mythos. It's not about quantity but quality, and prevailing while being slightly outnumber against less than stellar opposition isn't that great of a feat.
Was she using TK? Pre Vizla gave Maul trouble when he wasn't using the force. I don't really see your point.
facepalm
Blinded and drugged? Yes. I could easily make the argument that that's worse.
Right because being visually blinded is comparable to being blinded to the sense that Jedi train their entire lives to become reliant on, and being drugged is comparable to not having any of the advantages that Force sensitivity brings. Sure thing.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Essentially the amulet is based in hyperbole. Also wasn't Luke already incapacitated when he soul ripped him.And Kun never demonstrated anything like this when he was alive + it was done on a nexus.
It isn't. I explained on the last page why its so cool. The text says it doubles with each blast and it wildly increases his power/rage.
Luke was actively trying to defend against the attack so no, I don't think so.
That it was done on a nexus is irrelevant since a) He's a spirit so I don't think he can draw on a nexus b) It's Luke Skywalker, after DE and c) Kun as a spirit is lesser than he was alive.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Dooku is his great superior in lightsaber combat.
Literally nothing supports that. Exar Kun is also one of the great lightsaber duelists of all time and theres no way Dooku eclipses him with his feats.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Obviously not because you can't cut through a lightsaber blade chuckles.
Because a lightsaber is a stream of energy, so it's impossible to cut. That doesn't mean Vodo's stick can't match it in strength.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
And yet we know Maul did utilize Niman. It'd be like someone replicating Dooku's saber and practicing Makashi, then saying they aren't using Dooku's Makashi.
Only if Dooku used a unique variation of Makashi that he took to his grave. Then it would be just like that.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Unique how?
I don't know the specifics, other than he created his own, refined variant that was more aggressive and utilized his saberstaff's ability to rapidly change intensity and size. I think it might be detailed on one of the character guides.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Overridden by TCWs showing how Yoda learned the ability to become one with the force.
How so?
Originally posted by Lord Stark
So defeating Vodo makes him superior to Dooku? Nope. so many things wrong with this. Darth Maul also pwned a battlemaster but he isn't superior to Dooku.
Did I say he was superior to Dooku? Or did I say that he was every bit his equal? Also Anoon was a noob, Vodo was the legendary Weapons Master of his age.
And I take Exar being equal to Ulic as more proof of his skill than beating Vodo.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
So was Vandar Tokare, and neither of them have impressive feats. They have enough hype to put them on the level of other legendary masters like Saesee Tiin, but not nearly enough to put them anywhere close to Dooku's level.
Who the hell said anything about Dooku level? All I'm suggesting is that he was an impressively potent Jedi Master, whom Ommin babyshook. Which makes it more impressive that Ulic powered through his attack like a champ.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Eight Jedi...so what? None of them are impressive. And Malak is the second most powerful of his and yet I would never put him above Dooku.
Who gives a shit if any of them were impressive (though one of them was Nomi Sunrider and several of them showed the ability to reflect blast bolts with their hands which is an advanced force power). Anyone who can own 8 Jedi at once is freaking hardcore as phuck. Dooku definitely can't do that. Ulic being able to walk through his attack and cut him down is a better feat of Force resistance than anything Anakin has. And he did this before he joined the Sith, grew in power and amplified his strength with his amulet.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Considering Anakin casually dismantles these and deflects their fire. Yes I am.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tri-Droid
Yeah, with his lightsaber. 😬
Ulic deflected cannon fire with a Force shield, Jacen style. That's why I'm bringing it up about his Force defenses.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Sorry, but they don't have feats that make them more impressive than Force Lightning displays.
Above Dooku's lightning displays though. 👆
a) He's a spirit so I don't think he can draw on a nexus
I'm questioning if you know anything about that book at all. It was said more than once that Exar Kun's spirit could only effect the physical realm directly because he was drawing on the Dark Side energies of the temples to focus his power, and with the fear of Luke's students he grew stronger.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]It isn't. I explained on the last page why its so cool. The text says it doubles with each blast and it wildly increases his power/rage.
Which can't be hyperbole why?
Luke was actively trying to defend against the attack so no, I don't think so.That it was done on a nexus is irrelevant since a) He's a spirit so I don't think he can draw on a nexus b) It's Luke Skywalker, after DE and c) Kun as a spirit is lesser than he was alive.
Yes he can. Its explicitly stated that he can only do those things drawing on the negative emotions of Luke's students and the power of the Massassi temple.
Literally nothing supports that. Exar Kun is also one of the great lightsaber duelists of all time and theres no way Dooku eclipses him with his feats.
What feats? Defeating Vodo and stalemating Ulic are hardly enough to put him on the Count's level.
Because a lightsaber is a stream of energy, so it's impossible to cut. That doesn't mean Vodo's stick can't match it in strength.
No but it does mean that if he were using a lightsaber it wouldn't have been cut through. The only way Exar beat him was through literally cutting through his weapon.
Only if Dooku used a unique variation of Makashi that he took to his grave. Then it would be just like that.
I'm sorry where is it stated Exar's Niman is unique.
I don't know the specifics, other than he created his own, refined variant that was more aggressive and utilized his saberstaff's ability to rapidly change intensity and size. I think it might be detailed on one of the character guides.
Never heard of it. Sounds like fanon.
How so?
I was mistaken he doesn't learn it post death. I mistook something stated in the episode.
Did I say he was superior to Dooku? Or did I say that he was every bit his equal? Also Anoon was a noob, Vodo was the legendary Weapons Master of his age.
Anoon was also a legendary weapons master, as was Cin Drallig. That doesn't even put them in the same league as Dooku, nor should it put Vodo.
And I take Exar being equal to Ulic as more proof of his skill than beating Vodo.
Ulic isn't on Dooku's level so here we are.
Who the hell said anything about Dooku level? All I'm suggesting is that he was an impressively potent Jedi Master, whom Ommin babyshook. Which makes it more impressive that Ulic powered through his attack like a champ.
Yes, quite impressive. But again nothing to put him above Dooku.
Who gives a shit if any of them were impressive (though one of them was Nomi Sunrider and several of them showed the ability to reflect blast bolts with their hands which is an advanced force power). Anyone who can own 8 Jedi at once is freaking hardcore as phuck. Dooku definitely can't do that. Ulic being able to walk through his attack and cut him down is a better feat of Force resistance than anything Anakin has. And he did this before he joined the Sith, grew in power and amplified his strength with his amulet.
Are you serious? Dooku most certainly could own 8 mooks. He roflstomped at least that many force sensitive Kiffar with a lightning storm. And he did so casually.
Yeah, with his lightsaber. 😬Ulic deflected cannon fire with a Force shield, Jacen style. That's why I'm bringing it up about his Force defenses.
Do you have the scan? Because Dooku swatted his own lightning aside when it was redirected by fricken Yoda.
Above Dooku's lightning displays though.
Meh.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm questioning if you know anything about that book at all. It was said more than once that Exar Kun's spirit could only effect the physical realm directly [B]because he was drawing on the Dark Side energies of the temples to focus his power, and with the fear of Luke's students he grew stronger. [/B]
Cool thanks. 👆
Of course, all this proves is that Exar Kun wasn't nearly able to bring his actual power to bare as a spirit. Living, he would be capable of more. 😉
Originally posted by Astor EbligisThe chamber wasn't solely filled with senators but with their aides and other dignitaries such as ambassadors.
Really so each Senator had 50 aides? Please.
That was Anakin Skywalker in his prime, not as a padawan (not even going to comment on the other little inaccuracies in that paragraph).
So? Dooku would treat Cin Drallig the same way.
It wasn't a far less impressive era. It was a time when Jedi knowledge was at a high point and Jedi were more combat oriented than the PT Jedi were.
Yeah, it was.
Yoda: Most powerful Jedi in the Old Republic's history.
Sidious: The most powerful Sith Lord in Galactic History
Mace Windu: Inventor of Vaapad, disarmed the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
Dooku: One of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history and an even more powerful Sith Lord. Capable of out sparring Mace.
It happens extremely rarely, and the point is that those few non-force sensitives are usually among the most skilled bounty hunters/warriors in the entire galaxy. If you made their skills applicable to lightsaber combat, and gifted them with Ulic Qel-Droma's power in the Force, and they'd be some of the most frightening Force Users ever. That's not even mentioning that Ulic was even further disadvantaged by having been reliant on his ability to sense the Force, and no longer had access to it.
Didn't this happen years after he was cut off from the force. Surely he'd have time to adjust to it. Also Jango Fett would get godstomped by Dooku.
What you don't seem to be getting is that it's an extremely good feat, and that Ulic did it without the absurdly large advantage that Force sensitivity provides.
No it would be an average feat if he did it with the force. Because he did it without the force its above average. Not enough to put him above Dooku though.
The Jedi of that era in general have more feats than people from other eras. The PT era has been more heavily explored than any other in the mythos. It's not about quantity but quality, and prevailing while being slightly outnumber against less than stellar opposition isn't that great of a feat.
Less than stellar opposition?
1. Anakin Skywalker "the most powerful Jedi of his generation, perhaps of any generation"-ROTS Novel
and
Obi-Wan Kenobi hailed as being so good at Soresu he practically reinvented it.
2. Sora Bulq co-inventor of Vaapad, master of the 7 forms of lightsaber combat, one of the most skilled blademasters in history.
and
Tholme- Who is hailed as Dooku as a stellar swordsman.
4. Savage Opress- defeated Ventress, Adi Gallia, and Plo Koon, all exceptional swordsmen.
and
Ventress- Has defeated Kit Fisto who's hailed as one of the greatest swordsmen in history.
5. Mace Windu- Inventor of Vaapad, disarmed Sidious, ect. ect.
and
Kenobi- see above.
Right because being visually blinded is comparable to being blinded to the sense that Jedi train their entire lives to become reliant on, and being drugged is comparable to not having any of the advantages that Force sensitivity brings. Sure thing.
Its not as bad but Dooku had to face three opponents not one.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Which can't be hyperbole why?
It's not hyperbolic. It specifically states what the amulet does with no exaggeration.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he can. Its explicitly stated that he can only do those things drawing on the negative emotions of Luke's students and the power of the Massassi temple.
See my thoughts above. That just proves how limited Kun was as a spirit. As a man, he'd obviously be capable of it without the nexus.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
What feats? Defeating Vodo and stalemating Ulic are hardly enough to put him on the Count's level.
Well I guess I just disagree. Ulic's feat of stalemating a pissed of Cathar Jedi 15 years out of practice is one of the bets in terms of pure swordsmanship. He and Kun were the absolute best duelists of their era. And Kun's creation of his refined Niman reinforces his mastery of the lightsaber.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
No but it does mean that if he were using a lightsaber it wouldn't have been cut through. The only way Exar beat him was through literally cutting through his weapon.
Hardly the only way. Kun was kicking his ass the whole time.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I'm sorry where is it stated Exar's Niman is unique.
I'm getting someone incredibly smart and handsome to look into it but he suggested the KotOR Soucebook for d20 or Power of the Jedi.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Never heard of it. Sounds like fanon.
I can assure you it's not. I'm surprised you don't know about it. It's been discussed here for like a decade.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Anoon was also a legendary weapons master, as was Cin Drallig. That doesn't even put them in the same league as Dooku, nor should it put Vodo.
Anoon was a legendary weapons master in the eyes of his apprentice. He and Drallig had plenty of skill, but their power wasn't notable. Theres nothing wrong with Vodo's power, who was a master of battle meditation, wall of light and could communicate across the galaxy with the Force. /he also was able to achieve spirit form after his death.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Ulic isn't on Dooku's level so here we are.
In your opinion.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes, quite impressive. But again nothing to put him above Dooku.
Puts him above Ventress though. 😉
Exar Kun as the more powerful would go after Dooku while the apprentices duke it out.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Are you serious? Dooku most certainly could own 8 mooks. He roflstomped at least that many force sensitive Kiffar with a lightning storm. And he did so casually.
Lolwut? No, he wouldn't. 😬
Of course he'd own them all individually, but not combined. Dooku isn't as powerful as 8 Jedi put together, that's insane. Even Bane couldn't own that many Umbaran Assassins in RoT. Dooku owning for force sensitive proves nothing since they wouldn't have the ability to defend themselves so their ability is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Do you have the scan? Because Dooku swatted his own lightning aside when it was redirected by fricken Yoda.
It being Dooku's own attack makes Yoda's contribution nil so its pointless to namedrop him. And since I'm comparing Ulic to Ventress and Anakin, not Dooku, its above anything she has done. Finally Dooku's lightning is pretty shitty so I don't think it compares to a Basalisk War Droids cannons.
And here. At the top. Its a bit unclear but his lightsaber isn't moving and the narration is saying that Mandalores tech is no match for the Force.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Meh.
Heh.
