The novel claims it's a "Fountain of Light" so during PT times, it's an LS nexus:
The Jedi Temple was the greatest nexus of Force energy in the Republic; its ziggurat design focused the Force the way a lightsaber's gemstone focused its energy stream. With the thousands of Jedi and Padawans within it every day contemplating peace, seeking knowledge, and meditating on justice and surrender to the will of the Force, the Temple was a fountain of the light.
Doesn't matter.
"When the Sith built their shrine on Coruscant, they did so over a powerful light side vergence. This decision was made in an attempt to corrupt the vergence and use its power to fuel dark ties. Their plan worked to a point, and by the time the Jedi took Coruscant and pulled the shrine down, the vergence had become corrupted with dark side energies. The Jedi were well aware of the dark side corruption of the vergence, but believed they could reverse the process and return the vergence to the light side. Thus, they built their new temple atop the foundations of the old Sith shrine. Unfortunately, the Jedi were wrong on this account. Even as they built the temple, a small portion of lingering Sith corruption infused its foundations. The hint of dark side influence may have been enough to cloud the judgement of the Jedi, leaving them vulnerable to the manipulations of Darth Sidious."
Originally posted by MythLord
In a duel? Hardly.
Lol, at one point Dooku forces Obi-Wan's lightsaber up into the air so that he can block Anakin's at the same time. Obi-Wan practically trips over his own feet. Dooku displays zero trouble fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan together at the start of the fight, easily separates them and then takes Kenobi down the second he rejoins the fight. It's ironically Obi-Wan's worst performance against someone, uh, I think ever.
Originally posted by MythLord
Not on hand, no. I'll try and find them.
The quote about Kenobi being stronger is in regards to his growth between AotC and LoE. The S6 duel hadn't even been thought up yet.
Originally posted by MythLord
No, not really.
Yes really. Anyone who can one-shot Aryn Leneer, produce lightning enough to burn through a powerful Jedi's chest through his lightsaber defense, kill multiple Jedi with one blast of lightning, floor the ToR Strike Team with lightning and TK, choke out 3 of them while filling the mind of the 4th with visions of doubt, hold a starship in place against the strain of its engines, toss a mountain of rubble around, destroy a squadron of fighters with a scream while buckling his capital ships transparisteel viewport and is vastly more powerful than Satele Shan who was shattering blast doors, grabbing lightsabers and cubing Hex droids.
Originally posted by MythLord
[B]@NephThat quote just says there was a "linger Sith corruption" that was likened to a "hint" which only was "enough to cloud the judgement of the Jedi". Which implies, since it only did that, the Temple's Light Side vergence was returned.
Plus, that's canon-only. We're referring to the EU here. [/B]
It doesn't imply that. At worst it implies that the Jedi made the nexus neutral enough that it wasn't that big a deal but the corruption remained making it a slightly darkside one.
Canon and EU aren't exclusive.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, at one point Dooku forces Obi-Wan's lightsaber up into the air so that he can block Anakin's at the same time. Obi-Wan practically trips over his own feet. Dooku displays zero trouble fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan together at the start of the fight, easily separates them and then takes Kenobi down the second he rejoins the fight. It's ironically Obi-Wan's worst performance against someone, uh, I think ever.
Um, what? I mean, I guess you can look at it that way if you go by movies only, but that'd be just bull. A more detail description of the fight, authorised and co-written by Lucas himself no less, provides a description of how Obi contended fairly well against the Count:
"He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan."
...
"He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu."
Originally posted by Nephthys
The quote about Kenobi being stronger is in regards to his growth between AotC and LoE. The S6 duel hadn't even been thought up yet.
Yeah, but that still makes my point accurate. Obi did grow over the course of the war, why that'd magically stop in 20 BBY is beyond me.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes really. Anyone who can one-shot Aryn Leneer, produce lightning enough to burn through a powerful Jedi's chest through his lightsaber defense,
kill multiple Jedi with one blast of lightning,
From what I recall, he didn't one-shot Aryn Leneer with TK, only lightning. And if a tired Kenobi can deflect lightning that Yoda could deflect "far from easily", then I'd say he'd be more than capable of deflecting Malgus' lightning.
And besides, Aryn is hardly as powerful or as durable as Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Originally posted by Nephthys
floor the ToR Strike Team with lightning and TK,
While their guard was down. Utter TOR fodder did the same thing, unless you wish to argue Hiran is now also more powerful than Kenobi.
Originally posted by Nephthys
choke out 3 of them while filling the mind of the 4th with visions of doubt
LOL, game mechanics. If Malgus really is capable of that, why did all of them survive? Why didn't he kill one of them while they were helpless in a choke instead of just chasing a single, ineffectual, filled-with-doubt being around?
Originally posted by Nephthys
hold a starship in place against the strain of its engines, toss a mountain of rubble around, destroy a squadron of fighters with a scream while buckling his capital ships transparisteel viewport
Honestly, Anakin in a state inferior to the one he was on Mustafar has similar/better feats, and Obi seemed to be capable of deflecting those attacks easily enough.
Originally posted by Nephthys
and is vastly more powerful than Satele Shan who was shattering blast doors, grabbing lightsabers and cubing Hex droids.
Based on what is he "vastly" more powerful? From what I recall, Shan rivals Marr, who's canonically superior to Malgus, no? And tutaminis =/= TK, and Shan telekinetically opening two doors is hardly outside Obi's capabilities, and neither is hurling around Hex Droids.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't imply that. At worst it implies that the Jedi made the nexus neutral enough that it wasn't that big a deal but the corruption remained making it a slightly darkside one.Canon and EU aren't exclusive.
Um, it says it was only a "hint of the Dark Side" and said that it was only enough to hinder the Jedi's Farsight. That doesn't change that the vergence of the Temple to the Light was returned, and thus the Jedi would be capable of drawing on it.
And in this case they are, since anything post-Rebels is a completely different, contratictory continuity. RotS is, fortunately for me, accepted into both continuities and as such: while it's quote may not apply in Canon, it certainly applies in Legends.
Originally posted by MythLord
Um, what? I mean, I guess you can look at it that way if you go by movies only, but that'd be just bull. A more detail description of the fight, authorised and co-written by Lucas himself no less, provides a description of how Obi contended fairly well against the Count:"He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan."
...
"He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu."
As Thor indicated, it isn't bull. It's literally what happened in the actual movie. You can go and check yourself. Dooku drags Obi-Wan around like a puppy to block Anakin simultaneously. It's pretty pathetic. The RotS's inaccuracies don't change anything. That Lucas read the book and then personally contradicted it changes nothing, he clearly had no problem with the fight being different in the book and the film.
Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, but that still makes my point accurate. Obi did grow over the course of the war, why that'd magically stop in 20 BBY is beyond me.
Obi-Wan growing over the course of the war doesn't mean that he experienced significant growth between the S6 duel and RotS. If we compare his performance against Dooku it's pretty clear that he didn't improve much at all.
Originally posted by MythLord
From what I recall, he didn't one-shot Aryn Leneer with TK, only lightning. And if a tired Kenobi can deflect lightning that Yoda could deflect "far from easily", then I'd say he'd be more than capable of deflecting Malgus' lightning.And besides, Aryn is hardly as powerful or as durable as Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Dooku's lightning is far inferior to Malgus', nor is there an indication that he was truly going all out on Obi-Wan. As seen in the fight descriptions, its clear that he chose not to display his best when facing them. Malgus was able to blow through the defenses of a Jedi powerful enough to smash two buildings down on him and still possess enough power that his lightning could burn holes in the mans body while the Jedi was still blocking some of it. And Malgus indicated he could have own the guy in any number of ways with the Force. This before Malgus massively increased in power and had nearly 2 decades of growth. Anyone who can floor Nox and the Wrath with lightning at the same time will have no issues with the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
She is certainly comparable to him. Deceived Malgus is easily a match for Kenobi in power and Leneer was his equal before his mid-duel growth.
Originally posted by MythLord
While their guard was down. Utter TOR fodder did the same thing, unless you wish to argue Hiran is now also more powerful than Kenobi.
There's no indication their guard was down. Though if Malgus is fast enough to floor them twice in a row without them reacting that's still a point in his favor.
Tossing the Strike Team around and flooring them with lightning is hilariously above anything Kenobi could manage. Every Force Users in there is Obi-Wan's clear superior.
Originally posted by MythLord
LOL, game mechanics. If Malgus really is capable of that, why did all of them survive? Why didn't he kill one of them while they were helpless in a choke instead of just chasing a single, ineffectual, filled-with-doubt being around?
Because the remaining one managed to duel him to the point where he couldn't maintain the hold. The effort of holding the 3 protags is already a serious strain, doing so while the remaining one is dueling him would obviously be immensely difficult. It's obvious why he couldn't afford to take the time to finish any of them off.
Why did Dooku not snap Kenobi's neck when Anakin was flying across the room and Kenobi was in his force hold?
Originally posted by MythLord
Honestly, Anakin in a state inferior to the one he was on Mustafar has similar/better feats, and Obi seemed to be capable of deflecting those attacks easily enough.
That's hilariously speculative. You don't know what state Anakin was in on Mustafar other than that he was weakened to Kenobi's level. Also, all the feats I mentioned took place before Malgus experienced a massive growth in power, to the point where he almost casually one-shot someone who was his equal prior. So Malgus can still one-shot Kenobi.
Originally posted by MythLord
Based on what is he "vastly" more powerful? From what I recall, Shan rivals Marr, who's canonically superior to Malgus, no? And tutaminis =/= TK, and Shan telekinetically opening two doors is hardly outside Obi's capabilities, and neither is hurling around Hex Droids.
No, Marr is not superior to Malgus. Not even close. And those feats I mentioned are from a Shan who was already less powerful than Malgus, even before his giant increase in Deceived. Hence him being vastly more powerful than someone able to do those feats. Tutaminis is an expression of power, it's absolutely valid for a comparison. And Shan didn't "open" a door, she shattered it to pieces:
Nor did she hurl Hex droids, she crushed them into cubes and blew them apart. The same droids that were highly resistant to damage and even enraged Force Crushes.
Originally posted by MythLord
Um, it says it was only a "hint of the Dark Side" and said that it was only enough to hinder the Jedi's Farsight. That doesn't change that the vergence of the Temple to the Light was returned, and thus the Jedi would be capable of drawing on it.And in this case they are, since anything post-Rebels is a completely different, contratictory continuity. RotS is, fortunately for me, accepted into both continuities and as such: while it's quote may not apply in Canon, it certainly applies in Legends.
The text doesn't say that the vergence was returned to the light. It doesn't make any sense for there to be a lightside nexus with a hint of darkside. The text says that the Jedi believed they could reverse the corruption and return it to the light. But that they were wrong. So clearly, they couldn't reverse it. They failed.
No, your quote has simply been retconned.
Originally posted by Nephthys
As Thor indicated, it isn't bull. It's literally what happened in the actual movie. You can go and check yourself. Dooku drags Obi-Wan around like a puppy to block Anakin simultaneously. It's pretty pathetic. The RotS's inaccuracies don't change anything. That Lucas read the book and then personally contradicted it changes nothing, he clearly had no problem with the fight being different in the book and the film.
I'm not referring to that bladelock, lol. I'm referring to you stating that's Obi's worst performance against the Count, when the novel goes in detail to say how it isn't.
That bladelock you mentioned was during the time Anakin and Obi-Wan were trying to fool Dooku into a false sense of security, and holding back on purpose, as the novel notes.
So let's not cherry pick, and ignore the context.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan growing over the course of the war doesn't mean that he experienced significant growth between the S6 duel and RotS. If we compare his performance against Dooku it's pretty clear that he didn't improve much at all.
Actually, comparing his duels with Dooku it's clear he did indeed grow, especially when the RotS junior novel opens up the possibility of Obi potentially even countering the Count's TK.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku's lightning is far inferior to Malgus', nor is there an indication that he was truly going all out on Obi-Wan. As seen in the fight descriptions, its clear that he chose not to display his best when facing them. Malgus was able to blow through the defenses of a Jedi powerful enough to smash two buildings down on him and still possess enough power that his lightning could burn holes in the mans body while the Jedi was still blocking some of it. And Malgus indicated he could have own the guy in any number of ways with the Force. This before Malgus massively increased in power and had nearly 2 decades of growth. Anyone who can floor Nox and the Wrath with lightning at the same time will have no issues with the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi.
I'm willing to bet lightning that has given Yoda noticeable difficulty in deflecting is going to be better than Malgus'.
The buildings the Jedi collapsed were already heavily damaged from the bombardment, so it's not like they have a lot of support to begin with. I also doubt a no-named Jedi is as powerful or as skilled, especially in defense, as Obi-Wan Kenobi, who's defensive velocity shocked someone as fast and skilled as the Count(even if he was tired).
And nothing indicates that Malgus could've killed him in any other way, besides lightning. And by the time he started burning holes through an already injured Zabrak's body, his lightsabers fell from his wrists. Not to mention, despite a continuous barrage of lightning, it took Malgus a while to kill the Jedi:
Taken from: The Third Lesson
At 10 meters, Malgus extended his free hand and loosed veins of blue Force lightning. They struck the charging Jedi: swept through his defenses, swirled around him, and began to burn flesh.Shouting with pain, the Jedi leaned forward into the lightning - teeth bare, blue blades held before him - and staggered toward Malgus. Despite his burns, he came onward. One step, another, another, but he was failing, wilting in the heat of the lightning. Malgus channeled more power and the Jedi fell to his knees, screaming. The lightning spiraled around the Zabrak, blasting dark holes in his body. The lightsabers fell from his hands and he writhed in agony, screaming his pain into the sky.
Malgus ended his attack. The Jedi, ruined, fell to the ground and rolled over onto his back. His breathing sounded worse than Malgus's.
Originally posted by Nephthys
She is certainly comparable to him. Deceived Malgus is easily a match for Kenobi in power and Leneer was his equal before his mid-duel growth.
Comparable in power? Maybe, though that's debatable. Comparable in durability? Not at all, given how Aryn has coughed blood and been subdued by less kinetic damage than Kenobi has shrugged off.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no indication their guard was down. Though if Malgus is fast enough to floor them twice in a row without them reacting that's still a point in his favor.
Usually, they'd have their lightsabers raised or a Force Barrier animation activated to indicate they were protecting themselves. And he didn't floor them, he caught them off guard with lightning then proceeded to TK them before they can recompose.
Not so super-special-awesome as the TOR brigade likes to sell it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Tossing the Strike Team around and flooring them with lightning is hilariously above anything Kenobi could manage. Every Force Users in there is Obi-Wan's clear superior.
I don't see why Kenobi couldn't hurl four unprepared beings, only two of which are Force sensitive.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because the remaining one managed to duel him to the point where he couldn't maintain the hold. The effort of holding the 3 protags is already a serious strain, doing so while the remaining one is dueling him would obviously be immensely difficult. It's obvious why he couldn't afford to take the time to finish any of them off.Why did Dooku not snap Kenobi's neck when Anakin was flying across the room and Kenobi was in his force hold?
He seems to be holding them well enough that he can leap around, and fill another's mind with doubt... yet he didn't just stab them with a lightsaber or really do anything with them.
My point remains, it's just a flashpoint mission's game mechanic to make the game more challenging, just like any fodder suddenly picking up your companion or you and choking you for 10 seconds and then you beat them.
Regarding your Dooku/Obi example: at least Dooku did something. He either accelerates Obi's descent so his neck can break(novel) or collapses a railing onto him. Sure, neither kills him, but that just speaks to insane durability, the Count at least tried something.
If Malgus really could choke them, why couldn't he just do this to the non-Force sensitive?
Taken from: The Third Lesson
A human male in his twenties rose up out of ruins, dangling like a fish on the hook of Malgus's power. His legs kicked futilely; the green blade of his lightsaber cut at empty air; he gagged as Malgus's power squeezed shut his throat."Vorin!" shouted the Zabrak.
"So much for your ambush," Malgus said, and closed his fist, crushing Vorin's windpipe. He let the body fall to the charred earth.
Granted, the Jedi in this example wasn't expecting the attack, but it's still a Jedi and Malgus is far from his prime. You'd think prime Malgus could do this to a non-Force sensitive...
Part 2:
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's hilariously speculative. You don't know what state Anakin was in on Mustafar other than that he was weakened to Kenobi's level. Also, all the feats I mentioned took place before Malgus experienced a massive growth in power, to the point where he almost casually one-shot someone who was his equal prior. So Malgus can still one-shot Kenobi.
We know he's in a conflicted state, but we also know Annie at this point has experienced a considerable powergrowth since the beginning of the movie and a vast powergrowth since the late seasons of TCW. I find it hilarious that he would be below his padawan/early Knight self that couldn't even beat 3 MagnaGuards without some effort.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Marr is not superior to Malgus. Not even close. And those feats I mentioned are from a Shan who was already less powerful than Malgus, even before his giant increase in Deceived. Hence him being vastly more powerful than someone able to do those feats. Tutaminis is an expression of power, it's absolutely valid for a comparison. And Shan didn't "open" a door, she shattered it to pieces:Nor did she hurl Hex droids, she crushed them into cubes and blew them apart. The same droids that were highly resistant to damage and even enraged Force Crushes.
There's an accolade stating he is better than Malgus, but not that it matters. Her Hex Droid feat happened ten years after the events of Decieved, so that feat is irrelevant.
Regarding crushing the of the door... that also happened after the events of Decieved, and it's not like that's outside Obi's capabilities given how he's canonically and logically ahead of Quinlan Vos who, massively pre-prime, while suffering from amnesia, casually destroyed a large portion of duracrete by accident.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The text doesn't say that the vergence was returned to the light. It doesn't make any sense for there to be a lightside nexus with a hint of darkside. The text says that the Jedi believed they could reverse the corruption and return it to the light. But that they were wrong. So clearly, they couldn't reverse it. They failed.No, your quote has simply been retconned.
It says that there was only a hint of the Dark Side left, and that hint only hindered the Jedi's farsight. That's literally what the quote says -- only the Jedi's precognition was hindered, so logically they restored the vergence of the Light to pretty much every other field.
In-canon, not In-Legends since it doesn't apply. And if you wish to apply it to Legends, then we must also follow the canon hierarchy of Legends, in which case my quote is G-canon and is thus more valid than your C-canon quote.