Originally posted by Q99
It doesn't hurt.
ANALOGY: Surik's victory over Darth Sion and Darth Traya didn't guarantee her chances against strongest individuals of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Difference is in the quality factor of Sith in different factions; Sith had considerably evolved within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire due to high standards set for them by the Sith Emperor.
Originally posted by Q99
Andeddu was in a sith-eat-sith competition of the old empire. Thanaton had to get his position via blackmail, Andeddu got his through raw power.
You are just speculating about ground realities of Andeddu's era based on your bias factor. REMINDER: Sith became more powerful and competent within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire then they ever had been before in history.
In addition, Thanaton progressed and flourished primarily due to his "insurmountable strength." He would have stood no chance against other powerful Sith in the cutthroat competition if he could be taken out easily.
Originally posted by Q99
'Competition' past a certain point is overrated, especially when Thanaton is not the *top* of the competition, or even second place.
Thanaton had to contend with thousands of other Sith for survival and prominence within the Empire. Acquiring a position in the Dark Council was a HUGE accomplishment for any Sith; it was a position of great power, a Sith Lord would become the leader of a specific sphere of influence within the Empire which implies that he had a powerbase of his own (sometimes comprising whole armies and many Sith). Sith typically plotted their entire lives to ascend to the Dark Council, most were not privileged enough to be offered a seat in the Dark Council for political reasons.
Within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, competition took place in two phases:-
1. In academies which involved deadly Sith trials.
2. Outside academies for greater power and prominence after graduation.
Entire system was designed in such a way that only the greatest among the Sith would be able to gain prominence within the Empire.
Originally posted by Q99
And it was Andeddu, not Thanaton, who got remembered and respected into the Clone War era.
I don't see Sith Emperor being discussed much in future eras and he was arguably the biggest threat to the Jedi Order in history, far far greater threat then Andeddu ever was. Oh wait! Andeddu wasn't even a threat to the Jedi Order.
You need to think rationally, not emotionally, when presenting an argument.
Originally posted by Q99
But certainly no less, and arguably greater, than Thanaton's.
Krayt didn't had to compete with thousands of other Sith for supremacy and neither he existed in a setting which promoted cutthroat competition.
Krayt's rise to prominence have lot of circumstances attached to it and ground realities of his era are vastly different from that of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
Originally posted by Q99
Which is impressive. Also, there was a lightning clash which Wyyrlok blocked bare-handed.
Originally posted by Q99
Indeed, trying to play illusions with him is a sure way to lose for Thanaton. He may not have a choice in the matter, mind you.
Originally posted by Q99
So, pretty much just the lightning?Wyyrlok has good defense against lightning both vs Andeddu and vs Krayt.
In addition, neither Krayt and not Anddedu hold a candle to Thanaton's proficiency in lightning application. Thanaton could summon lightning of such a magnitude and intensity that he could destroy structures made of metal and concrete, literally one-shot other powerful Force-users and formulate violent whirlwinds of destruction with it.
Originally posted by Q99
Feat-wise, what sorcerers can match up? I can think of Zannah, Vitaite, and.... who else? Most sorcerers do not have near his level of feats.
Thanaton also have deadly command of sorcery; he one-shot Darth Nox with an unknown application of sorcery during their first confrontation.
Originally posted by Q99
Not as much so as Wyyrlok, who was able to hold his own against Krayt.Thanaton's dueling feats are more limited.
Thanaton also had exceptional command of lightsaber dueling arts, his apprentice turned out to be a legendary duelist.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Vitiate, Malgus, Revan, Hero, Jadus, Wrath, Nox, Marr, Barsen'thor, and Kaedan are above Thanaton off the top of my head.
Jadus is also a possibility but Thanaton have greater hype in the encyclopedic medium then Jadus. No one else in the list have been confirmed to be above Thanaton or even match his hype in the same medium.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I wonder if he's even in the top 10, tbh.
Thanaton is absolutely among the greatest and strongest Sith of the Empire, in history as well. Definitely top 10 material.
SW Legend
It doesn't proves much since Andeddu is from a time during which Sith are lot less developed and capable in general in comparison to those in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
He's from the original Sith Empire. Home of Tulak Hork and Marka Ragnos. The original Sith Empire was not *that* undeveloped.
He *invented* essence transfer. Sorcery was an area they developed well.
And, during his time in it? He was number 1, not number 12 or whatever Thanaton is at.
Surik's victory over Darth Sion and Darth Traya didn't guarantee her chances against strongest individuals of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Difference is in the quality factor of Sith in different factions; Sith had considerably evolved within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire due to high standards set for them by the Sith Emperor.
Sure, but on the flip side, nor does it mean that someone who's not even at the top is automatically stronger than anyone from eras with fewer strong people.
I mean, Vitiate, or Malgus? Of course they're stronger than Andeddu. Thanaton? Ehhh, not so sure.
This is utterly lame argument. I take it that you haven't read Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia and you have the tendency to underrate reconstituted ancient Sith Empire and quality of its Sith in general.You are just speculating about ground realities of Andeddu's era based on your bias factor. REMINDER: Sith became more powerful and competent within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire then they ever had been before in history.
Sure, it's certainly more powerful. It has multiple people stronger than Andeddu, and it has more generally strong people overall.
The problem here is you're trying to apply a generality to a specific situation, but you're assuming 'overall most powerful' means 'every powerful individual from one is stronger than every powerful individual from another.'
I do not hold this to be the case of *any* era. Not just TOR era, I simply don't believe there's an era when the 12th most powerful sith is going to top the pinnacle of another era which is still impressive in it's own right. The 2nd or 3rd of a stronger era? Sure. But there are limits.
I don't see Sith Emperor being discussed much in future eras and he was arguably the biggest threat to the Jedi Order in history, far far greater threat then Andeddu ever was.
Actually, he's certainly mentioned in the Book of the Sith. Heck, Malgus gets props.
Oh wait! Andeddu wasn't even a threat to the Jedi Order.
Yes, because he never met them. That's... not exactly much of an argument 🙂
You need to think rationally, not emotionally, when presenting an argument.
I'll bounce that at you. So far you've resorted to insisting on bias and saying someone's weak because they didn't threaten a group they hadn't met.
You're heavily relying on emotion here.
Based on what exactly?Krayt didn't had to compete with thousands of other Sith for supremacy and neither he existed in a setting which promoted cutthroat competition.
He was one of the stronger duelists in the Clone Wars, before he spent a century and a half delving into the darkside and growing in power, where he had the respect of the likes of Luke and Caedus for his power, and then he eventually learned to defeat death and self-resurrect, a holy grail of the force that even luminaries like Plagueis failed to achieve.
More competition does not always equal better. Sometimes centuries of improvement on an already solid base kicks it's butt.
Heck, Vitiate's competition vanished in the Great Hyperspace War, meaning he spent most of the time growing on his own, and he's the strongest of anyone in TOR.
[Krayt's rise to prominence have lot of circumstances attached to it and ground realities of his era are vastly different from that of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
Sure, his gave him a lot more time to develop and access to a lot more past knowledge to draw on.
'Different' does not equal 'worse'.
Exar Kun? Dread Masters? Jadus? List would be bigger realistically.
What, in sorcery? Exar had alchemy at a very high level, but his most famous force power is blasts using an alchemical device. He didn't do much combat sorcery.
The Dread Masters relied heavily on artifacts for a specific power themselves. They presumably had some sorcery power aside from that- but it's pretty hard to tell.
Jadus... does he have any sorcery feats? Is he even a sorcerer? Are you just naming people from TOR and assuming they're better sorcerers because they're from TOR?
Thanaton also have deadly command of sorcery; he one-shot Darth Nox with an unknown application of sorcery during their first confrontation.
Didn't he first try a weaker sorcery that was *blocked*? That shows it's not exactly the hardest to defend stuff.
And in his final duel, when drawing on his strongest attacks, he picked lightning.
Wyyrlok has shown far more, and he showed them head-to-head with a master sorcerer.
And this is also speculation.Thanaton also had exceptional command of lightsaber dueling arts, his apprentice turned out to be a legendary duelist.
No, it's not speculation. Wyyrlok has a demonstrated high-level dueling feat.
Thanaton has not actually dueled anyone strong. Generalized statements of possessing high skill doesn't say *how* skilled he is next to an actual proven high-level duelist, and his apprentice being skilled doesn't mean he's that level as numerous apprentices have passed their masters.
Going back to emotion vs logic, I believe that due to your like of Thanaton, you're willing to use speculation here in place of feats, but the fact of the matter is Wyyrlok has actual feats.
WildBantha
Thanato can attack suddenly and without Wyyrlok noticing
1- Thanaton is somehow going to attack very quickly without Wyyrlok even noticing.
2- Thanaton mostly uses noticeable force abilities with a significant charge-up while Wyyrlok's fought against Krayt who has very high speed feats.
At least argue in favor of Thanaton's specialty, that is to say overpowering charged-up assaults. Thanaton overpowers, not blitzes.
Originally posted by Q99
1- Thanaton is somehow going to attack very quickly without Wyyrlok even noticing.2- Thanaton mostly uses noticeable force abilities with a significant charge-up while Wyyrlok's fought against Krayt who has very high speed feats.
At least argue in favor of Thanaton's specialty, that is to say overpowering charged-up assaults. Thanaton overpowers, not blitzes.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Relax Q99, it's a running joke from that stupid debate I had with Flashpoint98 back on SWF where he said "Kolar can attack with Force Powers suddenly and without Bane noticing."
Ah, yea 🙂
CarthageYou are barely noticing this now even though you've been on this forum longer than me and have doubtlessly argued against this guy before? LOL. Why are you wasting your time with him Q?
I do tend to get drawn into debates.... still, I find it interesting he's naming a character who doesn't even seem to be a sorcerer!
Originally posted by Q99
Who would you say is top-10 in the era?
I was just talking about Sith. 😐
Vitiate
Malgus
Jadus
Marr
Baras
First Son
Scourge
Wrath
Nox
Vivicar
Dread Masters
All are above Thanaton. It says something about the strength of the era IMO that such a powerful Sith as him is still so far down the pecking order. He's not even in the Top 15 Sith seen in TOR.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Seriously?Thanaton is absolutely among the greatest and strongest Sith of the Empire, in history as well. Definitely top 10 material.
If you think there's anyone on the above list Thanaton is superior to, you're welcome to disagree.
Originally posted by Q99
He's from the original Sith Empire. Home of Tulak Hork and Marka Ragnos. The original Sith Empire was not *that* undeveloped.
Sith improved with passage of time, they had golden age during the time of Marka Ragnos, not during the time of Andeddu. After the disaster of Great Hyperspace War, Sith learned some valuable lessons from this defeat and improved further in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire represents prime period of ancient Sith in all aspects.
Originally posted by Q99
He *invented* essence transfer. Sorcery was an area they developed well.
Yes, Andeddu was an accomplished sorcerer in his era but many of his peers were not highly developed.
Originally posted by Q99
And, during his time in it? He was number 1, not number 12 or whatever Thanaton is at.
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but on the flip side, nor does it mean that someone who's not even at the top is automatically stronger than anyone from eras with fewer strong people.
Originally posted by Q99
I mean, Vitiate, or Malgus? Of course they're stronger than Andeddu. Thanaton? Ehhh, not so sure.
Andeddu used to be a prominent figure in his time, this doesn't implies that he will do well in reconstituted ancient Sith Empire or match its quality Sith.
Like Vitiate, Thanaton have been stated to be supremely powerful, and like Malgus, Thanaton have been stated to be among the greatest warriors of the Empire. Thanaton isn't some chump by any stretch of imagination, he have significant hype going for him. It took Darth Nox to draw on the power of several Force spirits to subdue Thanaton on top of his own immense strength, otherwise Nox stood no chance and clashes ended badly for him.
Did anybody think that Surik would not stand a chance against a Sith Lord of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire after defeating prominent Sith Lords such as Darth Sion and Darth Traya? Both are among the quality Sith of the mythos and seem to be stronger and more dangerous then Andeddu with proven combat record, credentials and feats. Open your eyes.
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, it's certainly more powerful. It has multiple people stronger than Andeddu, and it has more generally strong people overall.The problem here is you're trying to apply a generality to a specific situation, but you're assuming 'overall most powerful' means 'every powerful individual from one is stronger than every powerful individual from another.'
No, I am not asserting that Andeddu is weaker then every Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Andeddu was an outlier in his time but I don't see him flourishing in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, certainly no match for the elites of the Empire; Sith had progressed so much with passage of time. A typical Lord in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire is (officially) a powerful individual. Heck, even talented apprentices are powerful individuals in the Empire. Elites are just simply super-strong by mythos standards. Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire have evidently produced highest number of high quality Sith in galactic history.
You may rate Andeddu highly because some of his peers ganged up on him to subdue him in his time and his popularity in general but the same Lord lost to a single individual in a future era. This is a wake-up call, an indication that quality of Sith is better in Krayt's era then it was in the time of Andeddu in general. Also, popularity doesn't necessarily translates to great power.
Originally posted by Q99
I do not hold this to be the case of *any* era. Not just TOR era, I simply don't believe there's an era when the 12th most powerful sith is going to top the pinnacle of another era which is still impressive in it's own right. The 2nd or 3rd of a stronger era? Sure. But there are limits.
Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire represents epitome of progress of Sith Order in galactic history; Empire became a galactic superpower; significant progress made in the field of sciences; Standards for Sith increased as Sith learned new powers, honed their combat skills and produced an environment which ensured survival of the fittest.
Originally posted by Q99
Actually, he's certainly mentioned in the Book of the Sith. Heck, Malgus gets props.
Yes, this sourcebook reveals how powerful Malgus had become but Sidious also noted that he is "one of the" Emperor's greatest soldiers.
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, because he never met them. That's... not exactly much of an argument 🙂
You want to talk about super-strong ancient Sith? Look no further then Tulak Hord, Vitiate and Marka Ragnos.
Originally posted by Q99
I'll bounce that at you. So far you've resorted to insisting on bias and saying someone's weak because they didn't threaten a group they hadn't met.You're heavily relying on emotion here.
Originally posted by Q99
He was one of the stronger duelists in the Clone Wars, before he spent a century and a half delving into the darkside and growing in power, where he had the respect of the likes of Luke and Caedus for his power, and then he eventually learned to defeat death and self-resurrect, a holy grail of the force that even luminaries like Plagueis failed to achieve.
Death is not an end for many Sith.
Originally posted by Q99
More competition does not always equal better. Sometimes centuries of improvement on an already solid base kicks it's butt.
Ancient Sith also continued to improve throughout ages; ancient Sith reached the epitome of Sith ideals with reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
Originally posted by Q99
Heck, Vitiate's competition vanished in the Great Hyperspace War, meaning he spent most of the time growing on his own, and he's the strongest of anyone in TOR.
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, his gave him a lot more time to develop and access to a lot more past knowledge to draw on.'Different' does not equal 'worse'.
You are not getting it yet. REPEAT:
- It took Darth Nox to draw on the power of several Force spirits on top of his own immense strength to subdue Thanaton. A lone Force spirit is a powerful and dangerous manifestation of energy, combined might of 6 Force spirits is simply too much of a strength for any mortal to contend with. Thanaton was so powerful that other powerful Sith served him and Darth Nox stood no chance against him in a fair contest.
Originally posted by Q99
What, in sorcery? Exar had alchemy at a very high level, but his most famous force power is blasts using an alchemical device. He didn't do much combat sorcery.
Originally posted by Q99
The Dread Masters relied heavily on artifacts for a specific power themselves. They presumably had some sorcery power aside from that- but it's pretty hard to tell.
Originally posted by Q99
Jadus... does he have any sorcery feats? Is he even a sorcerer? Are you just naming people from TOR and assuming they're better sorcerers because they're from TOR?
Originally posted by Q99
Didn't he first try a weaker sorcery that was *blocked*? That shows it's not exactly the hardest to defend stuff.
Thanaton unleashed a power with which he put Nox out of commission in a single attack. And Nox was already amped by power of a Force spirit at this point on top of his own immense strength.
Originally posted by Q99
And in his final duel, when drawing on his strongest attacks, he picked lightning.Wyyrlok has shown far more, and he showed them head-to-head with a master sorcerer.
Thanaton literally unleashed a violent vortex of destruction on Nox with sorcery-enhanced lightning, same power would have utterly demolished any mortal. Nox survived by drawing on the overwhelming power of several Force spirits at this point on top of having sorcery-enhanced defensive abilities, he would have perished otherwise. The whole agenda of Sith Inquisitor story is that it represents rivalry between two supremely powerful Sith Lords for supremacy.
Originally posted by Q99
No, it's not speculation. Wyyrlok has a demonstrated high-level dueling feat.Thanaton has not actually dueled anyone strong. Generalized statements of possessing high skill doesn't say *how* skilled he is next to an actual proven high-level duelist, and his apprentice being skilled doesn't mean he's that level as numerous apprentices have passed their masters.
Thanaton, on the contrary, is among the greatest warriors the Empire have ever produced. When will you open your eyes?
Originally posted by Q99
Going back to emotion vs logic, I believe that due to your like of Thanaton, you're willing to use speculation here in place of feats, but the fact of the matter is Wyyrlok has actual feats.
Exak Kressh have more impressive feats then Wyyrlok III and she failed to defeat a young Thanaton. Forget Thanaton at his prime.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They give the vibe of The Ones. Do the math.
No.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jadus is Sith Inquisitor and he have incredible Force abilities.
He never displays an sorcery technique though.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.Thanaton unleashed a power with which he put Nox out of commission in a single attack. And Nox was already amped by power of a Force spirit at this point on top of his own immense strength.
Yes.
Thanaton tried a lesser attack first, which Nox blocked. He then used a more powerful ritual.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton literally unleashed a violent vortex of destruction on Nox with sorcery-enhanced lightning, same power would have utterly demolished any mortal.
Hell no.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wyyrlok haven't demonstrated high-level dueling feat, he happened to clash with a capable swordsman but he never struck Krayt down or did he?Thanaton, on the contrary, is among the greatest warriors the Empire have ever produced. When will you open your eyes?
Thanaton has likewise never beaten anyone with his lighstaber skills. His Force powers are much more advanced and established. With regards to his lightsaber skills he is relatively weak.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Exak Kressh have more impressive feats then Wyyrlok III and she failed to defeat a young Thanaton. Forget Thanaton at his prime.
No.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He never displays an sorcery technique though.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.Thanaton tried a lesser attack first, which Nox blocked. He then used a more powerful ritual.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Hell no.
Nox tanked by drawing on the energy of several Force spirits bind to him and enhanced body.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanaton has likewise never beaten anyone with his lighstaber skills.
Originally posted by Nephthys
His Force powers are much more advanced and established. With regards to his lightsaber skills he is relatively weak.
If he is not a formidable duelist himself, how come he managed to forge his apprentice in to a legendary duelist?
Originally posted by Nephthys
No.
Read this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707012
Exal Kressh is very impressive.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes! They don't seem like conventional Sith by any stretch of imagination, they are absolute masters of Sith magic and esoteric talents. They are virtually immortal, can bend time and space or alter reality, shape-shift, spawn monstrosities, masters of the Force and each and every shit you can think of.
That they are very powerful and have a lot of esoteric abilities doesn't put them near the One's by any stretch of the imagination.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Hell yes.
No, there are a lot of mortals who can block Thanaton's lightning. I cannot even believe you think that. Even in TOR there are people who could block it as easily as Nox did. The Hero of Tython chief among them. Darth Jadus, Malgus, Revan, the Barsen'thor etc. All mortal and all better than Thanaton and able to deal with his attack.
Also I don't think it was sorcery-enhanced lightning either.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you know this how? He came to be regarded as one of the greatest warriors of the Empire by not beating anybody? Makes no sense to me.
There's no records of him beating anyone in pure lightsabers. Suggesting he has is purely speculative. He could become one of the greatest Sith warriors through his Force powers instead of his skill with a blade.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
???If he is not a formidable duelist himself, how come he managed to forge his apprentice in to a legendary duelist?
That his apprentice was a gifted swordsman doesn't automatically mean Thanaton was. Perhaps his student simply had great natural talent in lightsaber skill.
Also there are ways to teach swordsmanship without Thanaton needing to directly teach it to him. Sith Instructors are available to all in the Empire and you can learn from other sources as well. Thanaton does have a tablet with Tulak Hord's lightsaber techniques, which he could allow his student it study.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.Read this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707012
Exal Kressh is very impressive.
Yes, she is. That doesn't mean she's more impressive than Wyyrlok though.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That they are very powerful and have a lot of esoteric abilities doesn't put them near the One's by any stretch of the imagination.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, there are a lot of mortals who can block Thanaton's lightning. I cannot even believe you think that. Even in TOR there are people who could block it as easily as Nox did. The Hero of Tython chief among them.
I do not understand why this is even a debate. The whole point of story of Darth Nox is that that dark sorcery is a pathway to stupendous power progression and talents and clash between champions of the Force in which one prevailed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no records of him beating anyone in pure lightsabers. Suggesting he has is purely speculative. He could become one of the greatest Sith warriors through his Force powers instead of his skill with a blade.
Examples:-
In the top image, Thanaton spun his blade so fast that it left after-images in its wake.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That his apprentice was a gifted swordsman doesn't automatically mean Thanaton was. Perhaps his student simply had great natural talent in lightsaber skill.Also there are ways to teach swordsmanship without Thanaton needing to directly teach it to him. Sith Instructors are available to all in the Empire and you can learn from other sources as well. Thanaton does have a tablet with Tulak Hord's lightsaber techniques, which he could allow his student it study.
You revealed that Thanaton had access to Tulak Hord's techniques so he wouldn't have studied those himself?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, she is. That doesn't mean she's more impressive than Wyyrlok though.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
When did being a mortal suddenly put on a power limit? Especially against other mortals?
Immortality grants superior chances of survival and defensive potential.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I have no idea. Legend seems to think it makes you godly powerful. He's comparing the Dread Masters to the Ones because of it despite the fact that they've been defeated twice by mere mortals.
Abeloth was also defeated by mere mortals on several fronts. So should we assume that Abeloth is shit?
Dread Masters have dominated and killed many individuals as well.