2.15
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Urgh, this particular computer is shitty with detecting forum videos in every way. Would u mind just sending me the youtube link?
Yeas.
Also later one of the Esh-ka draws on their power and is able to kill 3 troopers with fear effects too.
Oh and apparently the Emperor's Wrath is able to resist their power:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x45sppzUo0I
1.05+
****ing badass.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Wyrrlok beating a sith who just got his life back after thousands upon thousands of years isn't extremely impressive.
It's not like his skills would've degraded. And there's still the Krayt fight.
Thanaton's feats in the game appear more impressive than Wyrrlok's illusions and/or sith lighting.
His illusions of throwing huge amounts of lava around which can really kill? I'd say that's more flashy....
Not that flash is the most deadly part. Memory Walk could cripple or kill Thanaton, and there's the matter of Wyyrlok's sabers.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeas.Also later one of the Esh-ka draws on their power and is able to kill 3 troopers with fear effects too.
Oh and apparently the Emperor's Wrath is able to resist their power:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x45sppzUo0I
1.05+
****ing badass.
Wow I wish I chose that option. Most impressive.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well maybe not all of them at once. I doubt anyone outside of the One's or Nihilus could defeat 6 Sith at the level of the Dread Masters at once by themselves. But individually Sidious and Bane are comfortably above them.
Also, I am not sure if Nihilus can take Dread Masters. The latter are corporeally immortal beings and I don't think Force drain can undo that.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Nox is only a moderately powerful Sith in their own power (not even more powerful than Zash tbh) and needed overwhelming power to take on Thanaton's powerful rituals.
Anyways, that Nox was heavily outclassed in power irrespective of his performance in the (deadly) Sith trials despite all odds being stacked against him and being a powerful Force-user in general, speaks volumes about quality of Sith in the Empire. Nox was lesser then Skotia who in turn was lesser then Thanaton, such was the power gap. So yes, I do rate Thanation very highly because I don't think that Nox is a chump in comparison to other Force-users even at natural capacity on the whole. Official assessment is that Darth Thanaton is absolutely "supremely powerful," no other explanation makes sense.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, seriously Thanaton is not that great. You put WAY too much credit into that one fricking quote calling him supremely powerful. Any of the people I named would own him like Nox did. In feats and accolades they are much more powerful than him. Just because the same word is used to describe Vitiate and Thanaton doesn't make them in any way comparable. Vitiate is laughably far above a peon like Thanaton. Your belief in Thanaton's power is bordering on the delusional.
So I should disregard an official quote because it doesn't sits well with your personal perception? Makes no sense.
Any of the people you named would supposedly own Thanation, is just a supposition, not an established fact. I expect better reasoning from you at-least. I am not sure how even Revan would perform against Thanaton if both are at their prime, all I can do is speculate and I believe that this would be a very tough fight for both in which both can win and loose (Broad mindedness, Neph, coz someone being labeled as supremely powerful in an encyclopedic medium, specks volumes about his strength).
Yes, Sith Emperor likely eclipses everybody else excluding Dread Masters but "supremely powerful" accolade haven't lost its value if assigned to Thanaton, it just shows where he stands if TIERS are introduced to rank characters.
Originally posted by Nephthys
🙄Oh wow, a wall of wank.
Yes, his lightning is powerful but it is nowhere near the power of some other Sith. Destroying metal structures and one-shotting Force users is good, but still far below the greatest applications of the technique.
Yes, I do think a few mortal's can tank that attack. Jacen for instance can deflect turbolaser fire with his Force powers. And Zannah defended against a planet-wide Force Storm with hundreds of forks of lightning, generated by dozens of Sith Lords. When she was a child. Yoda, Windu and the Hero of Tython defended against the Force Lightning of the two most powerful Sith Lords in existence. Revan casually absorbed Nyriss' charged lightning. Cade Skywalker defended against an entire building exploding around him. And lastly Darth Jadus protected his capital ship from exploding. All of these people are mere mortals, and all of them could block Thanaton's lightning.
I am not dismissing the fact that incredibly powerful Jedi and Sith have formidable defensive abilities and would be able to tank many offensive applications of the Force and shit. It is though unclear what kind of strength is needed to tank a power of that much intensity which Thanaton unleashed on Nox to destroy him. Nox managed to tank it with unnatural boost in power and use of dark sorcery and this isn't normal approach to tank a Force power in the mythos. In addition, a vision revealed that Thanaton can casually destroy strong individuals with his lightning bursts at his prime, and he really upped the game with his powers while confronting Nox for the final time. So I am not sure that most can handle that kind of charged power, after all, dark sorcery represents extremely deadly use of the Force and it is not often possible to handle sorcery based attacks with natural ways. Just look at the example of clash between Bane and Zannah, Bane faltered when dark sorcery based offense came in to play and Bane could do nothing about it. And Bane is f****** strong. Now don't tell me that sorcery have no effect on lightning, it does. Sorcery can be used to for any purpose, to augment standard applications, to manipulate Force in ways not possible with standard applications. That wasn't a normal burst of lightning from Thanation, that was effin sorcery at work.
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Emperor created those storms through rituals and by corrupting the atmosphere of the planet. It isn't something he creates with his power through conscious effort, like Gethzerion did. Vitiates lightning is the greatest of any Sith, yes, but not for that reason.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No.Nox has many peers and superior's. Just because his power was augmented doesn't automatically put him above every one else's natural strength. Vivicar was amped off of the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters yet still got pwned by Barsen'thor. Suggesting he's more powerful than Anakin or Luke in sheer power is insane.
Nox wasn't siphoning energy of other individuals to enhance his endurance, he was doing something else; he bind powerful Force spirits to him by using Force-walking ritual technique and was able to augment his strength (in all aspects) by drawing from the energies of Force spirits surging within him. He managed to bind 6 Force spirits to him in total and became awfully strong at that point, stronger then any mortal perhaps.
About Force-walking ritual:
Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh. In its place, he discovered what he called the ritual of Force-walking. Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies. (Taken from SWTOR)
Get your facts straight, Neph.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Who freaking cares? 😐Choice of descriptive language is interchangeable. Him being called supremely powerful is no better than being called highly powerful or devastatingly powerful or terrifyingly powerful. As I said above, the Sith Emperor and Thanaton being called the same word means nothing. If Thanaton was anywhere close to Vitiates power he would have dominated the Dark Council years ago. He would be considered the most powerful Sith other than Vitiate, not Jadus. He's nowhere near that powerful. His hyper factor is utterly below what you seem to think it is. He'd barely even made it on to the Dark Council as of TOR. If he was more powerful than Malgus, who became the ****ing Emperor, he'd have done so decades before the game. And lets not even dignify your frankly idiotic (no offense) idea that he's greater than Sidious or Luke.
Thanaton being called supremely powerful doesn't make him better than ANY notable Sith in the mythos.
Every Sith have different dynamics, Thanaton grew in power with passage of time and proved his worth in battles and tasked to eliminate powerful Exal Kressh by Sith Emperor himself which was beyond the capability of many Sith.
More;
Born Teneb Kel, the Lord of the Sith known as Darth Thanaton rose to prominence in the years before the Treaty of Coruscant, in an Empire newly reintroduced to the galaxy. The apprentice of a disgraced master, the young Thanaton was forced to fight for his place in the Empire. His love of Sith culture and tradition was reinforced by the knowledge that power is not something given, but something fought for. He learned to despise and distrust the machinations of Sith like Lord Zash, who eschew Sith customs in favor of their own deceptive power gains, and to admire the sentinels of Sith history, embodied in the ancient Sith Lords Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord and Naga Sadow. (Taken from SWTOR)
Thanaton represented an ideal Sith Lord, an individual who would gain prominence through personal strength and just not political schemes and short-cuts. He arrived in the Dark Council on the basis of his personal strength and accomplishments, excellent. Sith spent their entire lives plotting to ascend to the Dark Council but few would get the opportunity so becoming a Dark Council member is a major accomplishment for any Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.
Malgus, is also a self-made Sith, yes, undoubtedly one of the strongest I have yet seen. And his attempt to become Sith Emperor is something to behold, it shows how strong he was even though he didn't last against rivals in Dark Council but still he had the mantle for a short while. I believe that elites of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had the potential to be greatest dark lords outside the Empire but Sith Emperor overshadowed them. Malgus also got an opportunity when Sith Emperor was not in the picture. He had what it takes to be an Emperor but their were other extremely powerful rivals, once again this shows how much quality existed in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire at higher end of its hierarchy.
In short, Malgus, Thanaton, Marr and Jadus are all examples of self-made super-strong Sith. And I respect them all and debate in favor of these Sith in many topics.
Originally posted by Nephthys
What, of two times he used a lightsaber? Oh, what fantastic evidence. No fool, Thanaton relies on his Force powers in combat. In all his battles against Nox he started the fight with the Force.
He even wears special gear to have advantage in combat situations like powerful Sith warriors:
The armor of Darth Thanaton incorporates life-support devices and combat stimulant injectors to give him edge in battle. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)
Yes, Thanaton specializes in use of the Force but this doesn't means he sucks in lightsaber dueling arts and not behaves like Sith warrior. I don't believe in stereotypes about specialties of individuals.
Originally posted by Nephthys
They can. But their focus is on Force powers. Your argument was that rigorous training led to lightsaber skill, so I pointed out that Thanaton was an Inquisitor and would spend most of his training on the Force.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Glad you agree. 👆
Originally posted by Nephthys
Illusions.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wyyrlok was matching Darth Krayt's lightning.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That you seriously think Thanaton is more powerful than Sidious or Bane is truly mind-boggling. 😬
Originally posted by Nephthys
She disintegrated his lightsaber and pwned him with it. 😬
Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but plenty of powerful sith don't use sorcery. We don't know *any* sorcery feats from him.
Originally posted by Q99
Seriously, you're saying people who haven't done any known sorcery are better than known master sorcerers because of era.
Their are other names; Darth Ikoral; Vodal Kressh; more. Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had made progress in all areas, including in the field of Sith sorcery and I won't be surprised that this Empire produced many experts in the field of sorcery. Dread Masters are greatest examples of significant progress made in the field of Sith sorcery since the times of Andeddu. Heck, Sith Emperor himself is an excellent example.
Originally posted by Q99
That's what happens when bright lights are spun around. I've seen ravers with glow sticks who can pull that off.
Thanaton's lightsaber seemed to exist at all points in that image; it is a depiction of after-images from the weapon being spun so fast. Let us stick to projections in the lore instead of relying on real world based developments.
Force-users are superhuman in capabilities, they can react and move much faster then normal humans. And Thanaton is among the greatest of the Force-users, his speed and reflexes would be so damn higher then a normal human that it isn't even worth mentioning. Use logic and common sense, Q99.
Originally posted by Q99
Fighting evenly with a guy who has killed 4 masters in 2 seconds as well as beaten down Cade Skywalker is a very high level feat.
Originally posted by Q99
Thanaton is famous for his force powers, not his saber skills, and has never faced someone as strong as Krayt- or Wyyrlok- in sabers.
Performance in lightsaber dueling arts depends upon command of the Force of an individual in its entirety. Revan isn't touted to be an expert swordman but he will shit on many due to his superior command of the Force. Similar are the dynamics of Thanaton.
Originally posted by Q99
What is with you attributing skills outside someone's specialty to them?
Originally posted by Q99
Someone who's powerful in one area is not necessarily strong in another. Jadus has shown no sorcery. Thanaton fights mostly with lightning, and back when he did use the saber he was no powerhouse with it.
Originally posted by Q99
Wyyrlok has killed an immortal before.
Immortality have different facets; corporeal; essence transfer; Force spirit and vice versa.
Andeddu had essence transfer and that didn't help him. In-fact, essence transfer is the most risky and vulnerable aspect of immortality.
Originally posted by Q99
He destroyed a legendary sorcerer in a sorcery duel, and held his own against a Sith Lord stronger than Thanaton.
Let me list them in brief:-
1. Sith had come far off since the days of Andeddu in all aspects of practices.
2. Thanaton is officially a "supremely" powerful Force-user, something that Andeddu is not. Thanaton thrived in the most competitive setting a Sith may find himself in the galactic history, he is much more tried, tested and hardened then Andeddu, Wyyrlok III and Krayt.
For details, you can see my previous posts.
Originally posted by Q99
If you're not going to acknowledge feats, what's the point of debating?
Originally posted by Q99
.... Kressh has very little feats, and most of them against a young Teneb who's not even near as strong as he'd become. Wyyrlok has fought two people who could be rightfully called the strongest of their era, destroyed one of them, and provided a hard fight for the other.
Originally posted by Q99
You have weird standards.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand, Sith Inquisitors tend to be sorcerers as well. Though I acknowledge that not much is known about Jadus in this field at the moment.
It's silly to put someone high on a list of 'best ever' simply because they exist in that category at unknown level with neither feats in that area or even hype about their abilities in that area.
Dread Masters are greatest examples of significant progress made in the field of Sith sorcery since the times of Andeddu. Heck, Sith Emperor himself is an excellent example.
Darth Nox, too.
TOR sorcery is so good it produced the Dread Masters, Darth Nox, and Vitiate, but that doesn't mean every sorcerer they have is that good.
Excuse me?Thanaton's lightsaber seemed to exist at all points in that image; it is a depiction of after-images from the weapon being spun so fast. Let us stick to projections in the lore instead of relying on real world based developments.
Are you familiar with how human eye afterimages and/or comic pages work? In comic pages, action has to be compressed in a single image even if it takes time. With human eyes, a bright object can appear to leave many afterimagines at fairly low speed.
Force-users are superhuman in capabilities, they can react and move much faster then normal humans. And Thanaton is among the greatest of the Force-users, his speed and reflexes would be so damn higher then a normal human that it isn't even worth mentioning.
None of which has to do with how his sword in a page.
'Leaving afterimages on a comic page' is not a sign of being fast with a sword *for a sith*.
And while he's known as very powerful, his saber ability specifically is never called out.
Once again, you are stuck in the mind-frame of superiority of Krayt and Wyyrlok III as if no one competes with them.
Oh, far from it! They are two of the best of their era and are thus formidable, but there's Sith in the TOR era that can beat them. Nox is, I'd say, an even better sorcerer than Wyyrlok, and Vitiate is better than Wyyrlok or Krayt. I'd say Malgus could beat armored-Krayt as well.
Throw in other areas and Sidious, Luke, and so on could do the job as well. Zannah's a sorcerer and I put her a bit better than Wyyrlok in that field as well.
It's just, 'some people from that era can beat them' doesn't mean 'people who definitely are not the best in their era,' can.
Thanaton's power is mostly shown with his powerful lightning. He has not shown major saber feats. His sorcery *outside* of lightning is not much to write home about by the standards of Sith on this level either.
Thanaton is a powerful Dark Councilor who's high force ability effectively makes him living force artillery with his lightning and able to blast away many lesser foes and even some quite formidable opponents who lack sufficient defense against said attacks. That's how I class him, and power in one area does not mean power in areas that haven't been shown.
I do think it's foolish to think that no-one of note in one era can lose to the very best of another, though.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
An argument can be made for Sidious based on official data, not Bane. Even then, Dread Masters seem to understand the Force in ways unlike any Sith I have seen yet. Maybe Sith Emperor have comparable command of the Force, I can't say the same about anybody else in the mythos.Also, I am not sure if Nihilus can take Dread Masters. The latter are corporeally immortal beings and I don't think Force drain can undo that.
Bane has some of the most devastating direct uses of the Force, the greatest physical abilities and in terms of knowledge of the Force you're forgetting that he has access to Revan, Freedon Nadd, Belia Darzu and Andeddu's holocrons. And all of them are insanely knowledgeable Sith Lords. The Dread Masters are powerful and skilled, but their fear attack can be resisted, especially by one such as Bane and their combat abilities aren't established as being equal to Bane's.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their is no such thing as "moderately powerful." Powerful is powerful. Yes, more powerful, very powerful, extremely powerful, supremely powerful, are right choice of words. Even then, some sources may just contain word powerful to describe an individual whom we may regard as extremely powerful based on feats.Anyways, that Nox was heavily outclassed in power irrespective of his performance in the (deadly) Sith trials despite all odds being stacked against him and being a powerful Force-user in general, speaks volumes about quality of Sith in the Empire. Nox was lesser then Skotia who in turn was lesser then Thanaton, such was the power gap. So yes, I do rate Thanation very highly because I don't think that Nox is a chump in comparison to other Force-users even at natural capacity on the whole. Official assessment is that Darth Thanaton is absolutely "supremely powerful," no other explanation makes sense.
No, there is such a thing as "moderately powerful". Nox is a powerful Sith Lord in their own right, but only compared to the other standard Sith Lords or Jedi Masters of the Empire. Compared to a Darth or a Dark Council member, she's not that great.
If you want an actual description, maybe the term "above average" is accurate.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton is not that great? Based on what exactly?So I should disregard an official quote because it doesn't sits well with your personal perception? Makes no sense.
Well for a start, unlike you I've actually played the Inquistor campaign as well as every other one and so I have good context for my evaluation of his abilities.
Don't disregard it, but don't give the quote as much credit as you are at the moment. Change your perception.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Any of the people you named would supposedly own Thanation, is just a supposition, not an established fact. I expect better reasoning from you at-least. I am not sure how even Revan would perform against Thanaton if both are at their prime, all I can do is speculate and I believe that this would be a very tough fight for both in which both can win and loose (Broad mindedness, Neph, coz someone being labeled as supremely powerful in an encyclopedic medium, specks volumes about his strength).Yes, Sith Emperor likely eclipses everybody else excluding Dread Masters but "supremely powerful" accolade haven't lost its value if assigned to Thanaton, it just shows where he stands if TIERS are introduced to rank characters.
There's no such thing as an established fact when it comes to how two characters compare. I didn't think I needed to bother saying that. Of course it's a supposition. Every single thing we're saying is a supposition except for the direct quotes. Don't lecture me about that. It is just as much a supposition of yours that Thanaton remotely compares to the people I mentioned. I say that they can own Thanaton based on evidence and their own abilities, not my personal opinion or how impressive I want a quote calling them powerful to be.
Being labeled as supremely powerful means less about him than you think. You should base your evaluation of his abilities on his actual demonstrated power, not just hyperbolic accolades that are only as impressive as the person reading wants them to be.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So facts are now a 'wall of wank' because you didn't like them?I am not dismissing the fact that incredibly powerful Jedi and Sith have formidable defensive abilities and would be able to tank many offensive applications of the Force and shit. It is though unclear what kind of strength is needed to tank a power of that much intensity which Thanaton unleashed on Nox to destroy him. Nox managed to tank it with unnatural boost in power and use of dark sorcery and this isn't normal approach to tank a Force power in the mythos. In addition, a vision revealed that Thanaton can casually destroy strong individuals with his lightning bursts at his prime, and he really upped the game with his powers while confronting Nox for the final time. So I am not sure that most can handle that kind of charged power, after all, dark sorcery represents extremely deadly use of the Force and it is not often possible to handle sorcery based attacks with natural ways. Just look at the example of clash between Bane and Zannah, Bane faltered when dark sorcery based offense came in to play and Bane could do nothing about it. And Bane is f****** strong. Now don't tell me that sorcery have no effect on lightning, it does. Sorcery can be used to for any purpose, to augment standard applications, to manipulate Force in ways not possible with standard applications. That wasn't a normal burst of lightning from Thanation, that was effin sorcery at work.
Give me a single bit of proof that Thanaton's lightning was enhanced by sorcery. 😐
Saying "its unclear what strength is needed to tank it" is complete bullshit. Don't cop out of actually proving the strength of the attack. Based on evidence any number of people are strong enough to block it.
Bane faltered against Zannah's attack because it wasn't an attack he could block, it was only something he could overcome through willpower.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Rituals require strength/power to be performed successfully. Terminology doesn't excuses use of strength from such acts. Rituals make it possible to manipulate the Force in ways that may not be possible during lets say combat situations because rituals require greater focus, sometimes total focus to be performed successfully. That Emperor was able to corrupt and influence the environment of an entire world (i.e. Dromund Kaas) with his dark practices, is a very good indication of his enormous power in general.
Rituals can take place over days or weeks though. They're not representative of the power a Sith can bring to bare in a few seconds. Plus they can require artifacts to achieve their purpose by augmenting the effects of the ritualist. In TOR for instance Nox can be seen performing sorcery with the aid of several objects. The entirety of Act 1 is Nox collecting artifacts needed to perform a ritual.
Gethzerion on the other hand created a lightning storm by getting angry.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nox doesn't have "many" peers and superiors, after being stupendously augmented with dark sorcery. I am not sure what Vivicar was doing, siphoning energy from lot of people doesn't necessarily grants an individual extraordinary boost in power, what it actually does is that it makes an individual much harder to kill/defeat then norm (endurance enhancement). BioWare explained this matter well with examples of Darth Malak and Darth Ikoral. Heck, Darth Sidious began to drain lot of people on Byss before falling in the Battle of Endor and if he were to get power boost from that feat, it would not have been possible to topple him like Vader did and Sidious would have one-shot anybody.Nox wasn't siphoning energy of other individuals to enhance his endurance, he was doing something else; he bind powerful Force spirits to him by using Force-walking ritual technique and was able to augment his strength (in all aspects) by drawing from the energies of Force spirits surging within him. He managed to bind 6 Force spirits to him in total and became awfully strong at that point, stronger then any mortal perhaps.
About Force-walking ritual:
Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh. In its place, he discovered what he called the ritual of Force-walking. Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies. (Taken from SWTOR)
Get your facts straight, Neph.
It's funny how you lecture me about getting my facts straight when you admit to having no idea what you're talking about. 😆
No, Vivicar was drawing on the power of the Jedi Masters. This is confirmed by him and the encyclopedia:
"My plague isn't just a disease; it siphons power from it's victims. With the proper rituals, that power can be channeled. Soon, the combined strength of your Masters will make me the most powerful Force adept who has ever lived!"
"Its victims suffered paranoia and madness, as [Vivicar] drew on their strength to fuel his own power." - Swtore 154
Jesus, Legend why don't you try doing some ****ing research next time. 😉
