Darth Thanaton vs Darth Wyyrlok III

Okay, and now there is no such thing as natural talent....

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You mean to say immortality?

Immortality grants superior chances of survival and defensive potential.

This is pathetic reasoning.

Abeloth was also defeated by mere mortals on several fronts. So should we assume that Abeloth is shit?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not comparing Dread Masters with The Ones in the context of strength. My point is that Dread Masters are so powerful and can perform such kind of actions that they seem to give the vibe of The Ones. They don't seem like conventional Sith, they are beyond conventional Sith in abilities.

Yet they were defeated by Jaric Kaeden and a squad of Republic Special Forces.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That wasn't a standard lightning burst and I don't think that many can block that kind of power. Nox didn't block that kind of power with his natural strength and capabilities, he tanked it through unnatural strength and capabilities.

I do not understand why this is even a debate. The whole point of story of Darth Nox is that he destroyed a supremely powerful Sith after a massive struggle and that dark sorcery is a pathway to stupendous power progression.

Even so it could be blocked with the Force or maybe even a lightsaber by quite a few in the mythos. You said that no mortal could defend against it, yet I can name dozens most likely.

The point of the story isn't that Thanaton is some godly Sith though. He isn't. He's surpassed by many in the Empire and the way that Nox pwned him only reinforces this. A lot of other Sith in TOR could defeat him.

This is a debate because your claim that no mortal could have blocked Thanaton's attack is utterly retarded.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton fought his opponents using every means at his disposal including his lightsaber.

Examples:-

In the top image, Thanaton spun his blade so fast that it left after-images in its wake.

Just because he did use his lightsaber on occasion doesn't mean it was the deciding factor in a duel. His Force powers are much more developed and he prefers to attack with them instead of his lightsaber. He only resorted to charging Nox after his best Force attacks had failed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nobody is naturally talented in lightsaber dueling arts since birth. Expertise and perfection is gained in lightsaber dueling arts with formal training, practice and interest.

You revealed that Thanaton had access to Tulak Hord's techniques so he wouldn't have studied those himself?

Natural talent in certain area's does exist. Lightsaber ability included. Some people, like Dooku, are natural fencers who understand swordplay easily. Skar could be one of these people, and probably is.

It's a possibility. I've never suggested Thanaton is a weak duelist, only that he's never actually done anything to show remarkable talent in that area.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She have better feats.

Not really, no.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is pathetic reasoning.

Abeloth was also defeated by mere mortals on several fronts. So should we assume that Abeloth is shit?

Dread Masters have dominated and killed many individuals as well.

Abeloth is pretty shit, yes. estahuh

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Okay, and now there is no such thing as natural talent....

My point is that I don't recall anybody being able to become an expert in lightsaber dueling arts as a child or with purely with natural instincts. Yes, some people have better aptitude and fitness for martial arts then others but expertise comes with continuous practice.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, I mean where you keep stating, "Against any mortal," in every thread you enter as if being mortal somehow limits the amount of power you can acquire or naturally have.

However, mortals have limited potential; fixed midichlorian count. Obviously very high midichlorian count makes it possible to manipulate the Force in very impressive ways.

However, dark sorcery is a pathway to achieve greater power then mortals can with use of unnatural methods for power progression. Consider the example of Darth Nox; he was a powerful Sith Lord at natural capacity. However, he significantly augmented his power by drawing on the power of several Force spirits which he bind to himself using a powerful sorcery technique. In this manner, Darth Nox acquired strength that was beyond what his midichlorian count would permit.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, it just means that the combined might of the "mortals" was greater.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I never stated this.

My point is that I don't recall anybody being able to become an expert in lightsaber dueling arts as a child or with purely with natural instincts. Yes, some people have better aptitude and fitness for martial arts then others but expertise comes with continuous practice.

Nobody is naturally talented in lightsaber dueling arts since birth.

I am not asserting that mortals cannot be super-strong. They can be undoubtedly extremely powerful such as Yoda, Revan, Barsen'thor (3), Thanaton, Hero of Tython and Luke Skywalker.

However, mortals have limited potential; fixed midichlorian count. Obviously very high midichlorian count makes it possible to manipulate the Force in very impressive ways.

However, dark sorcery is a pathway to achieve greater power then mortals can with use of unnatural methods for power progression. Consider the example of Darth Nox; he was a powerful Sith Lord at natural capacity. However, he significantly augmented his power by drawing on the power of several Force spirits which he bind to himself using a powerful sorcery technique. In this manner, Darth Nox acquired strength that was beyond what his midichlorian count would permit.

Thanaton literally unleashed a violent vortex of destruction on Nox with sorcery-enhanced lightning, same power would have utterly demolished any mortal.

suggests. Thanaton being able to defeat Nox before their shown peak does not prove that Nox couldn't defeat Thanaton at the peak of their skill, nor does it show that augments are needed for anyone else to defeat him.

Sorry, I didn't get this point?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yet they were defeated by Jaric Kaeden and a squad of Republic Special Forces.

Dread Masters are capable of extraordinary feats and have extraordinary talents. They are obviously not invincible but beyond conventional Sith in capabilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even so it could be blocked with the Force or maybe even a lightsaber by quite a few in the mythos. You said that no mortal could defend against it, yet I can name dozens most likely.

Have a good look at the power: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130206051506/starwars/images/a/ab/ThanatonKalligLightning01.jpg

Darth Nox tanked this power by drawing on the overwhelming power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his own strength and augmented defensive abilities. I am not sure if it possible for a mortal to match this kind of power.

It would be possible for Sith Emperor and his strongest immortal minions to defend against Thanaton's powers but I am not sure about others who rely upon lightsaber and standard applications of the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The point of the story isn't that Thanaton is some godly Sith though. He isn't. He's surpassed by many in the Empire and the way that Nox pwned him only reinforces this. A lot of other Sith in TOR could defeat him.

This is a debate because your claim that no mortal could have blocked Thanaton's attack is utterly retarded.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because he did use his lightsaber on occasion doesn't mean it was the deciding factor in a duel. His Force powers are much more developed and he prefers to attack with them instead of his lightsaber. He only resorted to charging Nox after his best Force attacks had failed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Natural talent in certain area's does exist. Lightsaber ability included. Some people, like Dooku, are natural fencers who understand swordplay easily. Skar could be one of these people, and probably is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's a possibility. I've never suggested Thanaton is a weak duelist, only that he's never actually done anything to show remarkable talent in that area.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really, no.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Abeloth is pretty shit, yes. estahuh

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I take it that you haven't played the flashpoint featuring Dread Masters. My advice is to try it and you will know how stupendously capable sorcerers these individuals were. They give the vibe of The Ones. Do the math.

lmao neither have you considering the Dread Masters show up in a whopping 0 flashpoints.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who denied this? Even so, that's not what you said.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No one argued that anyone is born capable of destroying masters. The point is, just because a student is a master of sabers, it does not guarantee that the master is also. The apprentice's skill is not limited only by their masters knowledge and aptitude.

Also, an expert duelist can be a good instructor to his apprentice in matters of lightsaber dueling arts. Yes, apprentice can learn stuff from other people but I am not sure if other Sith are so welcoming or inclined to share their knowledge with apprentices that are not their own.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Thanaton augmenting his strength does not mean that a mortal cannot defeat him, which stating

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Thanaton being able to defeat Nox before their shown peak does not prove that Nox couldn't defeat Thanaton at the peak of their skill, nor does it show that augments are needed for anyone else to defeat him.

Darth Nox stood no chance against Darth Thanaton in a fair contest. Heck, Darth Nox stood no chance against Darth Skotia who was serving Darth Thanaton in a fair contest.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Stating that because the Dread Masters are immortal, they must be well above other Force users, is a fallacy. The fact is that Abeloth lost because her power was not enough to face the power of the mere mortals she faced.

Their is a special operation in SWTOR that is focused on Dread Masters. They demonstrate capabilities and powers that seem to be beyond the understanding of most Sith and Jedi. They can be driven to defeat with Strike Teams only.

Abeloth wasn't lacking in power, she lacked in decision-making potential. In a fair contest, she would have taken any mortal. She could have killed Luke as well but PIS.

Originally posted by Based
lmao neither have you considering the Dread Masters show up in a whopping 0 flashpoints.

I got to 3rd boss in my 2 attempts. In both attempts, teams lost to 3rd boss, ended-up demoralized and disbanded. 😛

Oh, the 3rd boss in dread palace is pretty difficult.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We are not aware of the circumstances of this encounter. Do you have details that you may share?

Dread Masters are capable of extraordinary feats and have extraordinary talents. They are obviously not invincible but beyond conventional Sith in capabilities.

I believe Battle Meditation was used to counter-act their fear power.

Not all conventional Sith. Sidious and Bane would beat their asses.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But this is an assumption, nothing concrete.

Have a good look at the power: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130206051506/starwars/images/a/ab/ThanatonKalligLightning01.jpg

Darth Nox tanked this power by drawing on the overwhelming power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his own strength and augmented defensive abilities. I am not sure if it possible for a mortal to match this kind of power.

It would be possible for Sith Emperor and his strongest immortal minions to defend against Thanaton's powers but I am not sure about others who rely upon lightsaber and standard applications of the Force.

It's not an assumption, it's an evaluation. Just like you think that Thanaton's attack wouldn't be blocked based on evidence, I think the opposite. It's utterly ridiculous to suggest Thanaton is powerful enough to defeat any mortal opponent with that attack. Yoda, Sidious, Luke, HoT, Barsen'thor, Windu, Revan, Zannah etc etc would laugh at it. They're far more powerful than Thanaton.

Just because it looks cool doesn't mean anything. Gethzerion was pulling down massive lightning bolts from the sky that was melting rock with each strike. THAT's impressive lightning. Vitiate, Sidious, Bane, Malgus, Nyriss and others also possess lightning more powerful than Thanaton's, with enough power to utterly disintegrate opponents.

Nox isn't that powerful. There are many who are more powerful than them. Malgus for instance, is just as or more powerful than her completely naturally. She's only on the 2nd tier when it comes to raw power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton is a supremely powerful Sith nonetheless and his powers are extremely potent. He is among the mightiest of the Sith in history. This isn't my personal assessment, my position is based on official information rather then personal speculation. Defeating him is BIG FREAKING DEAL.

Thanaton is truly not nearly as powerful as you give him credit for. He is among the most powerful in history but not very high up the list. I've pointed out of over a dozen just in TOR who eclipse him in power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why would his lightsaber dueling skills would not be a deciding factor in a duel? Ok, maybe not in every duel but nothing implies that he sucks in lightsaber dueling arts.

Because he's primarily a Sith Sorcerer who uses the Force in combat instead of a blade.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, some people have better aptitude for martial arts then others but expertise comes from continuous training in the end.

Thanaton is a sorcerer primarily. Most of his training would be in the Force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Being one of the greatest warriors among the Sith is sufficient reason for me to assume that Thanaton is a formidable duelist as well. You might disagree but you cannot dismiss my point.

I can dismiss anything that doesn't have any basis in fact. There's no evidence that Thanaton was a notably skilled duelist.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Apart from illusion talent, I have seen nothing from Wyyrlok III that puts him on par with Exal Kressh.

Sure, apart from his greatest ability which is clearly superior to anything she has. 🙄

I'd say his lightning is superior as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I believe Battle Meditation was used to counter-act their fear power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not all conventional Sith. Sidious and Bane would beat their asses.

Dread Masters were so powerful that they couldn't be controlled by anybody, not even by whole civilizations/factions. Republic lost whole fleets to them in battles, Strike Teams were dispatched to assassinate these monsters on the ground.

The only individual who have managed to keep Dread Masters subservient or under check is Sith Emperor, no one else. This is the greatest feat of Sith Emperor and arguably greatest display of power in the mythos from a single individual.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not an assumption, it's an evaluation. Just like you think that Thanaton's attack wouldn't be blocked based on evidence, I think the opposite. It's utterly ridiculous to suggest Thanaton is powerful enough to defeat any mortal opponent with that attack. Yoda, Sidious, Luke, HoT, Barsen'thor, Windu, Revan, Zannah etc etc would laugh at it. They're far more powerful than Thanaton.

Also, I wouldn't assert that the individuals that you mentioned are far more powerful then Thanaton. Utterly misplaced assumption on your part. Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia promotes only Sith Emperor and Thanaton as supremely powerful Sith Lords. You are out of your mind to underestimate Thanaton.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because it looks cool doesn't mean anything. Gethzerion was pulling down massive lightning bolts from the sky that was melting rock with each strike. THAT's impressive lightning. Vitiate, Sidious, Bane, Malgus, Nyriss and others also possess lightning more powerful than Thanaton's, with enough power to utterly disintegrate opponents.

By the way, Sith Emperor performed more impressive feats with lightning then Gethzerion, thunder storms engulfing entire Dromund Kaas, were his doing. He is arguably the greatest practitioner of lightning application in the mythos. I rank Thanaton second to him in potency factor in lightning application.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox isn't that powerful. There are many who are more powerful than them. Malgus for instance, is just as or more powerful than her completely naturally. She's only on the 2nd tier when it comes to raw power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanaton is truly not nearly as powerful as you give him credit for. He is among the most powerful in history but not very high up the list. I've pointed out of over a dozen just in TOR who eclipse him in power.

1. Sith Emperor
2. Darth Thanaton

Then I read story of Sith Inquisitor and I was baffled to learn that Darth Nox had to wield combined might of several Force spirits on top of his own strengths to subdue Thanaton, hype factor of the latter Sith totally justified.

In the same sourcebook, many other great individuals have been mentioned but none have been touted as being supremely powerful apart from the above two. Yes, Darth Nox can be counted as one on logical basis. So what implications do these revelations have for the mythos?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he's primarily a Sith Sorcerer who uses the Force in combat instead of a blade.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanaton is a sorcerer primarily. Most of his training would be in the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can dismiss anything that doesn't have any basis in fact. There's no evidence that Thanaton was a notably skilled duelist.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, apart from his greatest ability which is clearly superior to anything she has. 🙄

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd say his lightning is superior as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By the way, Sith Emperor performed more impressive feats with lightning then Gethzerion, thunder storms engulfing entire Dromund Kaas, were his doing. He is arguably the greatest practitioner of lightning application in the mythos. I rank Thanaton second to him in potency factor in lightning application

And don't even get me ****ing started on the Son of Mortis.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane and Sidious both have more impressive lightning than Thanaton.

And don't even get me ****ing started on the Son of Mortis.

If nobody else, at least Nox is better at lightning than Thanaton, surely. 😬

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Read my entire post above and then come back to me. Nobody is talking about Son of Mortis here.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Nox ****ing tanked it casually, so saying that demonstrates a limit as to who can defend against it is laughable.

Once again, read my previous posts properly and then get back to me.

You only rank him so highly because he's called supremely power that one time. Which is hilariously awful logic.

You completely missed my point. You are suggesting that because Nox tanked his lightning with the aid of spirits that that is the absolute limit of who can defend against his power. Nox however very casually defended against Thanaton's most powerful attack. This in no way indicates a limit as to who can defend against Thanaton's lightning. It's like saying that Sidious stomped Kolar, but nobody not on Sidious's level could hope to defeat Kolar.

One-shotting powerful force users with lightning is no unique feat either. A feat that Sidious, Bane, Nyriss, Dooku, and Malgus are all perfectly capable of.

The perpetual lightning storms on Dromuund Kaas were a result of several rituals Vitiate performed over the years, not Vitiate channeling his force lightning through the sky. In any case I have no idea what the **** you are trying to prove for Thanaton by extolling the virtues of Vitiate's lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You only rank him so highly because he's called supremely power that one time. Which is hilariously awful logic.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You completely missed my point. You are suggesting that because Nox tanked his lightning with the aid of spirits that that is the absolute limit of who can defend against his power. Nox however very casually defended against Thanaton's most powerful attack. This in no way indicates a limit as to who can defend against Thanaton's lightning. It's like saying that Sidious stomped Kolar, but nobody not on Sidious's level could hope to defeat Kolar.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
One-shotting powerful force users with lightning is no unique feat either. A feat that Sidious, Bane, Nyriss, Dooku, and Malgus are all perfectly capable of.

Nyriss had limits but Malgus have done well undoubtedly. Malgus is the only individual in this list who comes close to Thanaton's proficiency in lightning application.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mention the names of 'powerful' Force-users whom Sidious, Bane and Dooku managed to one-shot with lightning bolts.

Now who are the 'powerful' people Thanaton has one shotted?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nyriss had limits but Malgus have done well undoubtedly. Malgus is the only individual in this list who comes close to Thanaton's proficiency in lightning application.