Revan and Scourge vs Dooku and Maul

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why, because she didn't knock out Meetra with a single bolt of lightning? That's all you're basing that on? Hilarious.

Better than "He didn't even leave a burn mark!"

Originally posted by Nephthys
Have you for a moment considered that Meetra's force defenses might surpass those of the people you're bringing up?

Nope. Considering the fight was on a dark side nexus, which would decrease her powers and increase Nyriss's, I just don't find Nyriss's lightning as good as Dooku's, and that she needed to charge her attack to actually do anything other than simply knocking them down.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Anyway, Nyriss only hit her with a single bolt of lightning. You can't compare that to Dooku's sustained attacks on people.

Double standards much.

Sidious knocks Yoda unconscious with a mere short blast, but yet you find Vitiate knocking out a strike team with one prolonged attack + a charged attack more impressive. I claimed that it took Vitiate far more power to render the strike team unconscious. Your counter claim to that was, we don't know if Vitiate needed another charged attack to take out the two remaining jedi. Well, I'll go ahead and make the same claim. Dooku used a sustained attack on her because he wanted to, as you also said with Vitiate.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She was capable of turning armored guards into charred and smoking husks with it, which is a level of power beyond what Dooku's impotent attacks are capable of.

I find killing a group of force sensitive zabraks more impressive. If you're referring to the kiffar warriors, I don't believe their bodies were shown after Dooku killed them to know if they were burnt.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm aware, my point was that this was an extremely early version of Ventress well before she'd reached her stride.

Irrelevant. She was a powerful force user even then. She impressed both Sidious and Dooku. Her force feats are superior to Meetra's. In fact, Dooku implied that she already had what it took to be labeled a sith lord, and that she only lacked one quality to classify, which was having a lot of fear.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Knocking her out with a sustained blast of lightning (Nyriss only hit Meetra with a single bolt 😬) for nearly 10 seconds is hardly that impressive. Ventress wasn't even shown to have attempted to block the attack

See above. Furthermore, force defenses are invisible during combat. If the force wasn't used to actively resist the attack, she would have went down even faster, assuming Dooku wasn't using the attack as a means of torture before finally putting her out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lmao. AotC Anakin, sure. 🙄

Even AOTC Anakin, who Dooku put out for close to 30 seconds via lightning, was more powerful than AOTC Kenobi by that point, and managed to press Dooku more than Kenobi. Not to mention that his force feats shortly after AOTC are superior to Meetra's

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you're referring to when Anakin was choking him, however, Dooku uses TK to throw Anakin back. He hits him with lightning inside Anakin's guard and throws him backwards while Anakin is writhing in pain.

It was Dooku's lightning that threw Anakin back. Anakin was resisting the first attack, then Dooku used the force to levitate Anakin, and then another lightning attack to blast him meters away, similar to what Sidious did to him in the ritual. You can see the trail of lightning that blasted Anakin back coming from Dooku's direction.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Needless to say, it was again a sustained burst in both cases.

Needless to say, it was again an off nexus attack.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And that he actually managed to throw up some defenses instead of Dooku catching him off-guard. I see no reason to do either.

Force users have force auras/barriers put up when in combat situations. They are invisible as I told you before.

Just because we don't see a glowing shield coming from their bodies doesn't mean they aren't actively using the force to resist a lightning attack, otherwise Anakin wouldn't be able to handle Dooku's lightning any better than when he was a padawan. We didn't see Maul throw up a shield, but he obviously used the force to resist the attack, which surprised Mighella. Based on her reaction of Maul being powerful enough to resist her lightning, would suggest that no one else apparently has, which seems to imply that only strong force users can resist lightning from a force user of Mighella's calibre, who was confirmed being inferior to Maul, so I don't assume her lightning is near Dooku's. Not to mention that Dooku's lightning, which was only meant to torture Maul, visibly affected Maul more than Mighella's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Defeating a Force sensitive is only impressive if they have some way to actively engaging their strength against yours through force defenses.

Anakin had over 10 years of training as of AOTC, and was more powerful than some jedi knights,. Bulq was a master (I believe), was already a master of multiple saber forms, was strong enough in the force for Mace to choose him to help develop a saber force that requires a powerful force user to master, and was goood enough to give Mace a struggle in a fight, even landing a force attack on Windu. Ventress had jedi training and was self trained for years after, and I believe she had already defeated some jedi by that point. But, yeah, none of them had any force defenses.

If you truly believed that, then you would have to believe that Ventress's body is just that durable, considering it took a sustained attack from Dooku to KO her, as you said, while it took one short blast from Dooku, coming from one hand, to KO Bulq.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Otherwise you're not really overpowering them, are you?

If their force power isn't sufficient to resist your attack, yes you are.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wouldn't it be just as impressive if Revan was able to incapacitate Sith as powerful as Nox and the Wrath for long enough to perform the feat without interference as it would be if he performed the feat while dealing with their interference? Either way it's great.

Nope the former would suggest he needed room and/or to distance himself to give him enough time to perform the feat, which would in turn suggest that it required more power and effort from him; while the latter would suggest he did so far more casually, and didn't struggle at all to pull it off.

See what I mean, we don't know how it was done. All we know is that he did it because it's a scripted event. We don't know how much of an effort he put into it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's a scripted event. It's no more a mere gameplay mechanic than Ganon shooting lightning balls or whatever.

What? lol

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's an event that occurs as part of the plot of the fight. Gameplay mechanics are non-diagetic. Theres a difference.

It's an event that occurs within game play content, which is known to exaggerate feats.

Like you said, it's something that happens whether or not Revan is up close to his opponents (which is something I doubt Revan would do given the size of the meteors). We don't know the circumstances surrounding the feat, which does matter when comparing feats. Hell, for all we know, Revan could have went super rage mode, as Ventress did when she overpowered both Skywalker and Kenobi at the same time, or as Savage did when he did the same to Dooku and Ventress.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's a matter of opinion what one chooses to label as 'tremendous power'.

When we see a force user, who can easily force push a ship over a cliff, struggle to lift 4, it is an indication of how heavy those objects are. That Dooku lifted all 12 of them very casually, is a glimpse of the raw power Dooku has at his disposal.

It's your opinion that it requires more raw force power to pull off Revan's absorption feat. They're two separate applications of power that are very different. You can just as easily say it requires more raw power to pull off Revan's absorption feat than it would to pull off Vader's feat of crushing a tie fighter like a tin can with a mere gesture. However, you wouldn't be able to prove it, and you'd be arguing from your opinion, nothing more.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I know. The issue is that you think Dooku has as much or more power than him. He doesn't.

I didn't say Dooku had "much more" raw power than Revan. However, since the TOR wank is getting out of hand here, and retarded claims are being made, such as Revan's power being on par with Sidious and Yoda based on his quotes that suggest he is powerful, and his impressive absorption feat, then I'll go ahead and say Dooku can easily dismiss Revan with TK based on the fact that he has consistently done so to Ventress, whose TK feats are comparable to Revan's. After all, when discussing a hypothetical vs match, actual feats mean more than a bunch of implications. For the most part I've been pretty reasonable by placing Revan on a similar footing with Dooku, but since the lowballing and wanking is getting out of hand, then I don't see why I should be reasonable any longer.

Even posters such as yourself are getting out of hand with lowballing characters based on onscreen/on-panel feats, but when a force user from an era you prefer doesn't have any notable feats off of a nexus to put them on par with character you're arguing against, you try to ignore the concept of how a nexus works, and you'll make up some lame argument that a place being strong in the dark side doesn't mean it's a dark side nexus, despite the fact that that's basically what a nexus is. Or you will rely on a bunch of quotes and implications of power to elevate characters you prefer. Dooku has some of the best accolades there are, and he has the feats to back them up, but yet you want lowball him and force your opinion that Revan is above him, despite showing nothing to prove it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's simple physics, as shown in the link I provided earlier in the thread.

It's not simple physics when they have no way to determine the density of the objects.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or perhaps they used the common density of meteorites.

Which is impossible for them to do, given that most meters do not even make it all the way through our atmosphere. The common meteors that are weighed are the ones that land.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unlike you, I actually know what I'm talking about when it comes to gameplay mechanics.

Then why not have the meteors vanish. I've seen stuff like that happen in older less advanced games. Did the designers of the game add the dirt splatter effect to make it more flashy, and then expect the players to assume they are of equal density to the meteors that manage to pass through our atmosphere and land on earth?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Isn't it just as true that we don't know the quality of the metal Dooku broke? For all we know it could have been weakened considerably by rust or something, barely able to support its own weight. Or it could be a light-weight alloy that required little force to break.

Even if you want to take the silly route. Dooku has plenty of other impressive feats, such as dominating other force users, who have comparable TK feats to Revan.

Originally posted by Nephthys

Unlike those meteors that are shown within the game play mechanics, this meteor was actually weighed. It's density and durability was such that it managed to actually land on earth. You can't say that because those meteors in the game looked big, that they are durable enough to land on earth. Even meteors bigger than the one in the picture sometimes burn out and completely and disintegrate before reaching the earth's surface. Not all meteors are the same in density, nor are all of them made of the same material.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even not counting that, if I were feeling merciful, the meteors are vastly larger than the obalisks that Dooku lifted

So was the star ship that Savage pushed over the cliff. In fact the ship was bigger than half of the obelisks, yet Savage struggled immensely just to lift four despite receiving somewhat of a rage boost at the hands of Dooku's torturing. Before that, he couldn't even lift two.

The huge bolders that Ventress ripped from a cave ceiling were larger than those obelisks. They were also larger than Revan's meteors. They were large and heavy enough to smash giant warriors like bugs, and yet Dooku has consistently overpowered Ventress with casual ease.

Unlike Revan, Ventress has consistently been portrayed as having powerful TK, such as causing a massive avalanche, throwing around large tree trunks, force pushing a small army of clone troopers + Anakin, choking out & killing a group of pirates with a mere gesture right after awakening from unconsciousness, and, in a fit of rage, she overpowered both Skywalker and Kenobi despite their efforts to break free. Hell, as a mere child, she force hurled the assassin who killed her jedi master higher than some buildings, IIRC. The fact that Dooku can casually overpower a force user that weilds such raw power, is beyond anything Revan has done with TK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
based off of a comparison between their size compared to Revan against the obalisks compared to Dooku. And there were more of them.

The only thing you have proven is that they were bigger individually than the obelisks were individually; not that they weigh more. I'm also assuming that the longer the battle lasts, the more Revan dropped, which would depend on how good the player is and how quickly he finishes the fight, correct? Once again, very little is known about the feat, other than he dropped some meteors.

Furthermore, Dooku lifted them all at once, very easily.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And throwing an object requires much more force than is needed to simply lift it. Revan's feat utterly eclipses Dooku's.

Well Revan didn't throw them from what I seen. He dropped them one at a time, maybe two at a time at most. However, he didn't drop more than a dozen at a time. Dooku casually lifting a dozen of heavy objects high in the air, against the force of gravity is more impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan throws around the Strike Team in certain scripted events. I don't believe it needs to be said, but Nox and the Wrath are both considerably powerful.

Ok, they're powerful so that means their TK are greater than Ventress', who has directly overpowered both Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time. Of course you could argue it was a one off feat due to her rage enhanced state, while I can't say that Revan force pushing two force users was under the same circumstance, because, once again, we don't know the circumstance surrounding that feat, other than he does it, do we?

Also, does Revan directly grip them then throw them around, or did he just use a powerful force push to knock them off balance (which is different than directly overpowering them the way Dooku does Ventress), because Ventress has done that to Anakin several times?

Even posters such as yourself are getting out of hand with lowballing characters based on onscreen/on-panel feats, but when a force user from an era you prefer doesn't have any notable feats off of a nexus to put them on par with character you're arguing against, you try to ignore the concept of how a nexus works, and you'll make up some lame argument that a place being strong in the dark side doesn't mean it's a dark side nexus

Read this and understand Emperor, lol.

Confirmations in your above post, SIDIOUS 66:
1. You never read my respect thread.
2. You never played/watched the Foundry fight.
3. You never played Knights of the Old Republic.
4. You never bothered to read any information on Revan.
5. You never told me you were so hilarious.
What makes you think you can jump into a Revan debate? 😬

I would like to point out that ripping something from orbit takes a lot strength. Revan actually pulls the meteors away from gravity, he didn't use it. From what I saw in the Flashpoint.

Originally posted by carthage
Read this and understand Emperor, lol.

Originally posted by Emperordmb

Sidious 66: U mad bro?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What makes you think you can jump into a Revan debate? 😬

Based on just about all of your replies to me suggests you are unable to follow any of my arguments. What makes you think you can debate with me? 😬

Of course I can't follow your arguments.
They are beyond my level of comprehension.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Of course I can't follow your arguments.
They are beyond my level of comprehension.

No, you're just so obsessed with Revan's absorption feat that you think all of my arguments revolve around it.

It took me several posts to get one simple point across to you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious 66: U mad bro?

Yes.

Let's fight.

So dooku is better at TK than yoda? That's what you're saying mr. 66

I personally think Revan is more powerful than Dooku, but S66 is spanking Neph pretty consistently on the double standards and wank.

So far the only double standard made has been his, when he made an argument that applied just as much to Dooku as it did Revan. And I hardly think I'm wanking just because I'm daring to suggest Revan has superior TK than Dooku.

No, I agree that Revan is more powerful than Dooku. Your conclusion is fine, the means by which you arrive at it kinda suck, though.

And as far as the double standards are concerned, he's called you out on them pretty consistently and I don't blame him for playing the game by your rules and beating you.

It's gratifying to see a cheater outcheated.

What double standards am I making? Point them out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What double standards am I making? Point them out.

He already has. I'd just be quoting him.

You mean that one thing about Vitiate that has nothing to do with the discussion and is just him pissily conceding the point while ranting at me?

I... guess I'm being schooled there?

It's still a double standard he's right to call you out on, imo. All you do is further the impression that the SWTOR camp (of which you are something of a figurehead and certainly their most gifted debater) can't properly labor the point without indulging in cheap double standards.

Then S66 comes along and demonstrates the futility of your worldview by using the same tactics that keep the debate from proceeding, to your frustration.