Revan and Scourge vs Dooku and Maul

Not really. I've already explained my reasoning to him on that matter. It's not a double standard that I simply have a different opinion than him. If anything the double standard is his, since I never even brought up Nyriss beating the Exile with a single bolt of lightning as a positive feat. Rather, he's using it as a negative here. But when Sidious does it suddenly its amazing. Spare me. His whole reasoning is "The Exile sucks and its pathetic that she wasn't knocked out with a single bolt of lightning."

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. I've already explained my reasoning to him on that matter. It's not a double standard that I simply have a different opinion than him. If anything the double standard is his, since I never even brought up Nyriss beating the Exile with a single bolt of lightning as a positive feat. Rather, he's using it as a negative here. But when Sidious does it suddenly its amazing. Spare me. His whole reasoning is "The Exile sucks and its pathetic that she wasn't knocked out with a single bolt of lightning."

...And you don't use similar logic to "lowball" certain characters? 😬

Um, slander much? And that wasn't what he said, so its not relevant to the supposed spanking I'm receiving. Feels more like light cupping to me.

Also is that a concession that he's making double standard "too"?

Sure, S66 and I have already said that he's using your playbook to beat you. Your choice looks ever much like losing a fair fight or losing an unfair fight. (The enduring tragedy of the SWTOR camp.)

I still agree with you that Revan could take Dooku, pretty much always have. But it's just funny to see him use your own tactics to frustrate you.

The only thing frustrating me is how much ****ing text he wrote out. Replying is going to be exhausting. Other than that I have this in the bag. I'm just going to laugh off his lame attempts at annoying me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[b]Confirmations in your above post, SIDIOUS 66:
1. You never read my respect thread.
2. You never played/watched the Foundry fight.
3. You never played Knights of the Old Republic.
4. You never bothered to read any information on Revan.
5. You never told me you were so hilarious.
What makes you think you can jump into a Revan debate? 😬 [/B]

Confirmations in the above post:

1. DarthAnt66 can't counter Sidious's argument, and thus is making irrelevant distraction posts in desperation.

I can, and I did. 😬
He just didn't respond back to me.
Though Neph got this one easily.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Better than "He didn't even leave a burn mark!"

Not true. Dooku has a demonstrated ability to not being able to char the bodies of those he hits with Force lightning. Or at least has never demonstrated that level of power. This makes a better comparison to other uses of Force Lightning than what effect his lightning had on force sensitives, who's resistance isn't verifiable or provable.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nope. Considering the fight was on a dark side nexus, which would decrease her powers and increase Nyriss's, I just don't find Nyriss's lightning as good as Dooku's, and that she needed to charge her attack to actually do anything other than simply knocking them down.

I don't care if it was on a nexus, Meetra solo'd an entire Sith academy full of Sith Lords on a vastly more powerful nexus than the possible nexus on Kaas. Suggesting that their Force defenses > theirs is not an established fact. Theres no indication Nyriss was drawing on a nexus either. And as I've already stated, dthat instance isn't comparable with any of Dooku's since she only hit Meetra with a single bolt. If Dooku had only hit Ventress or Anakin with a single bolt they wouldn't have been knocked out either.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Double standards much.

Sidious knocks Yoda unconscious with a mere short blast, but yet you find Vitiate knocking out a strike team with one prolonged attack + a charged attack more impressive. I claimed that it took Vitiate far more power to render the strike team unconscious. Your counter claim to that was, we don't know if Vitiate needed another charged attack to take out the two remaining jedi. Well, I'll go ahead and make the same claim. Dooku used a sustained attack on her because he wanted to, as you also said with Vitiate.

Nice concession. Would you like some cheese to go along with that whine?

Nyriss' attack isn't comparable to Dooku's. Admit it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I find killing a group of force sensitive zabraks more impressive. If you're referring to the kiffar warriors, I don't believe their bodies were shown after Dooku killed them to know if they were burnt.

It wasn't even confirmed that he killed them as opposed to knocking them out. And it isn't more impressive unless you can prove those zabraks resistance to lightning.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Irrelevant. She was a powerful force user even then. She impressed both Sidious and Dooku. Her force feats are superior to Meetra's. In fact, Dooku implied that she already had what it took to be labeled a sith lord, and that she only lacked one quality to classify, which was having a lot of fear.

Not irrelevant because she hadn't demonstrated anything suggesting her defenses > Meetra's at that time and wasn't nearly as powerful as she became later in the Clone Wars. Meetra was able to take everything Kreia could throw at her and beat her twice and Kreia is much more powerful than Ventress.

Lol @ trying to use Tartovsky feats though.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
See above. Furthermore, force defenses are invisible during combat. If the force wasn't used to actively resist the attack, she would have went down even faster, assuming Dooku wasn't using the attack as a means of torture before finally putting her out.

That they're invisible only means is that its impossible for you to prove she put any up in time. Torture is a possibility or she could have started resisting after being hit with the lightning. Or maybe Dooku's lightning sucks.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Even AOTC Anakin, who Dooku put out for close to 30 seconds via lightning, was more powerful than AOTC Kenobi by that point, and managed to press Dooku more than Kenobi. Not to mention that his force feats shortly after AOTC are superior to Meetra's

Anakin's Force defenses aren't more powerful than Kenobi's though. That's why he ended up in a corner and Kenobi didn't. Meetra beat Traya whose force feats are far superior to AotC Anakin's. Meetra was able to deal with Traya's attacks but not Nyriss', which should tell you how powerful the latter was.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It was Dooku's lightning that threw Anakin back. Anakin was resisting the first attack, then Dooku used the force to levitate Anakin, and then another lightning attack to blast him meters away, similar to what Sidious did to him in the ritual. You can see the trail of lightning that blasted Anakin back coming from Dooku's direction.

It wasn't the lightning. Look at Dooku's hand when he's pushing him away. He uses a two-handed Force Push and then follows it up with lightning again.

YouTube video

2.45.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Needless to say, it was again an off nexus attack.

Prove a nexus would make the difference between knocking out with a single bolt and knocking out with a sustained blast of lightning.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Force users have force auras/barriers put up when in combat situations. They are invisible as I told you before.

Just because we don't see a glowing shield coming from their bodies doesn't mean they aren't actively using the force to resist a lightning attack, otherwise Anakin wouldn't be able to handle Dooku's lightning any better than when he was a padawan. We didn't see Maul throw up a shield, but he obviously used the force to resist the attack, which surprised Mighella. Based on her reaction of Maul being powerful enough to resist her lightning, would suggest that no one else apparently has, which seems to imply that only strong force users can resist lightning from a force user of Mighella's calibre, who was confirmed being inferior to Maul, so I don't assume her lightning is near Dooku's. Not to mention that Dooku's lightning, which was only meant to torture Maul, visibly affected Maul more than Mighella's.

Anakin didn't handle Dooku's lightning any better than when he was a padawan. 😐

My impression was that Maul resisted Mighella's lightning through sheer physical toughness and his zabrak endurance, not the Force. As I recall the lightning was actually hitting him, which doesn't suggest a Force barrier at work unless she broke through it. Also of course a nobody like Mighella's lightning is inferior to Dooku's. I don't think he's THAT pathetic.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Anakin had over 10 years of training as of AOTC, and was more powerful than some jedi knights,. Bulq was a master (I believe), was already a master of multiple saber forms, was strong enough in the force for Mace to choose him to help develop a saber force that requires a powerful force user to master, and was goood enough to give Mace a struggle in a fight, even landing a force attack on Windu. Ventress had jedi training and was self trained for years after, and I believe she had already defeated some jedi by that point. But, yeah, none of them had any force defenses.

If you truly believed that, then you would have to believe that Ventress's body is just that durable, considering it took a sustained attack from Dooku to KO her, as you said, while it took one short blast from Dooku, coming from one hand, to KO Bulq.

I didn't say they had no Force defenses. Clearly they have the ability to use force barriers and such. I'm just questioning whether they actually used them when Dooku hit them. Dooku is a fencer after all, and his mindset is to outmaneuver opponents and hit them with the defenses exposed. In the case of Anakin he was recklessly charging forward and clearly not expecting Force Lightning, an attack that hadn't been seen in a thousand years. The same with Ventress, she literally ran into the attack. If they had really reacted to the attack, wouldn't they use their lightsabers for defense instead of a Force Barrier? Bulq occurred after Dooku had disarmed one of his lightsabers and we don't know the state he was in at the time.

Also I was talking about the nightbrothers but whatever.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If their force power isn't sufficient to resist your attack, yes you are.

If they don't have the ability to even attempt to resist your attack, no you aren't.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Nope the former would suggest he needed room and/or to distance himself to give him enough time to perform the feat, which would in turn suggest that it required more power and effort from him; while the latter would suggest he did so far more casually, and didn't struggle at all to pull it off.

See what I mean, we don't know how it was done. All we know is that he did it because it's a scripted event. We don't know how much of an effort he put into it.

Or that it would be difficult to do while being shot at by two gunslingers, attacked with Force lightning and assaulted with a lightsaber. Either he WAS able to perform the feat while dealing with that, or he was able to beat the shit out of the strike team enough to allow him to perform the feat without them immediately attacking him. I see the second one as just as impressive as the first. Which would you, Dooku pulling down the scaffold while fighting Mace and Obi-Wan or Dooku knocking down Mace and Obi-Wan and then pulling it down?

If he needed to put effort into it then he's just put as much effort into his attacks on Dooku, it doesn't matter. It would only be more damning for you if he did it casually.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? lol

In Ocarina of Time part of Ganon's battle has him fly into the air and shoot lightning balls at Link. It's a scripted sequence that needs to happen for the story to go on and Link to beat him. Similarly, Revan always uses that attack at a scripted point in the fight as part of the canonical story of the fight, like Revan putting up a Force Bubble at the end and vanishing in a flash.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's an event that occurs within game play content, which is known to exaggerate feats.

Like you said, it's something that happens whether or not Revan is up close to his opponents (which is something I doubt Revan would do given the size of the meteors). We don't know the circumstances surrounding the feat, which does matter when comparing feats. Hell, for all we know, Revan could have went super rage mode, as Ventress did when she overpowered both Skywalker and Kenobi at the same time, or as Savage did when he did the same to Dooku and Ventress.

Is it? I don't recall anything stating that. If anything characters are less impressive during gameplay.

Theres nothing suggesting rage mode. Kindly keep the baseless speculation to a minimum. I know it's hard for you. The circumstances are immaterial. Nothing could diminish the feat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
When we see a force user, who can easily force push a ship over a cliff, struggle to lift 4, it is an indication of how heavy those objects are. That Dooku lifted all 12 of them very casually, is a glimpse of the raw power Dooku has at his disposal.

It's your opinion that it requires more raw force power to pull off Revan's absorption feat. They're two separate applications of power that are very different. You can just as easily say it requires more raw power to pull off Revan's absorption feat than it would to pull off Vader's feat of crushing a tie fighter like a tin can with a mere gesture. However, you wouldn't be able to prove it, and you'd be arguing from your opinion, nothing more.

Savage could only lift a few because his mastery was only sufficient to allow him to lift that many. It was a question of skill not power. Dooku doesn't eclipse Savage in terms of telekinetic power. He can't toss him around with the Force and Savage was even able to Force Choke him when he got mad. He could perform powerful brute force attacks like he did against the ship which isn't far from Dooku's own level of power. Think about it, Dooku had to pull down the scaffold to send the ship into the lava. If he were so much more powerful that Savage he could have easily pushed it in.

It's not opinion, its a scientific fact. Revan casually absorbed gigawatts of energy, which is well more than is needed to pull off any of Dooku's feats. Pulling down a scaffold or lifting some stone obalisks doesn't require that much power. It. Just. Doesn't. Whine all you want, it won't change the actual facts. Revans feat is better than Vader cubing TIE fighters btw.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I didn't say Dooku had "much more" raw power than Revan. However, since the TOR wank is getting out of hand here, and retarded claims are being made, such as Revan's power being on par with Sidious and Yoda based on his quotes that suggest he is powerful, and his impressive absorption feat, then I'll go ahead and say Dooku can easily dismiss Revan with TK based on the fact that he has consistently done so to Ventress, whose TK feats are comparable to Revan's. After all, when discussing a hypothetical vs match, actual feats mean more than a bunch of implications. For the most part I've been pretty reasonable by placing Revan on a similar footing with Dooku, but since the lowballing and wanking is getting out of hand, then I don't see why I should be reasonable any longer.

Even posters such as yourself are getting out of hand with lowballing characters based on onscreen/on-panel feats, but when a force user from an era you prefer doesn't have any notable feats off of a nexus to put them on par with character you're arguing against, you try to ignore the concept of how a nexus works, and you'll make up some lame argument that a place being strong in the dark side doesn't mean it's a dark side nexus, despite the fact that that's basically what a nexus is. Or you will rely on a bunch of quotes and implications of power to elevate characters you prefer. Dooku has some of the best accolades there are, and he has the feats to back them up, but yet you want lowball him and force your opinion that Revan is above him, despite showing nothing to prove it.

I said "as much or more", not "much more".

Blah blah butthurt blah blah CW feats blah blah SMH.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It's not simple physics when they have no way to determine the density of the objects.

Even with some of the lightest rocks the feat would be above Dooku's feats. You don't seem to grasp that.

Also it goes without saying that this applies to Dooku's orbalisks as well.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Which is impossible for them to do, given that most meters do not even make it all the way through our atmosphere. The common meteors that are weighed are the ones that land.

The intact ones, smart guy.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Then why not have the meteors vanish. I've seen stuff like that happen in older less advanced games. Did the designers of the game add the dirt splatter effect to make it more flashy, and then expect the players to assume they are of equal density to the meteors that manage to pass through our atmosphere and land on earth?

They added dirt becuase it'd look retarded if they just vanished and tbh the meteor's hit the ground so fast that you might not even notice them without some indication they hit. I don't know what you're driving at here. The dirt effect obviously isn't representative of the actual impact, there's way less "dirt" than there is meteor.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Even if you want to take the silly route. Dooku has plenty of other impressive feats, such as dominating other force users, who have comparable TK feats to Revan.

Well that's not true so ok.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Unlike those meteors that are shown within the game play mechanics, this meteor was actually weighed. It's density and durability was such that it managed to actually land on earth. You can't say that because those meteors in the game looked big, that they are durable enough to land on earth. Even meteors bigger than the one in the picture sometimes burn out and completely and disintegrate before reaching the earth's surface. Not all meteors are the same in density, nor are all of them made of the same material.

Even if the meteors were half the density of that they're twice as big and Revan pulled down over a dozen of them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So was the star ship that Savage pushed over the cliff. In fact the ship was bigger than half of the obelisks, yet Savage struggled immensely just to lift four despite receiving somewhat of a rage boost at the hands of Dooku's torturing. Before that, he couldn't even lift two.

I already covered this. Suggesting that Dooku >>> Savage is stupid and you know it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The huge bolders that Ventress ripped from a cave ceiling were larger than those obelisks. They were also larger than Revan's meteors. They were large and heavy enough to smash giant warriors like bugs, and yet Dooku has consistently overpowered Ventress with casual ease.

Lmao.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Unlike Revan, Ventress has consistently been portrayed as having powerful TK, such as causing a massive avalanche, throwing around large tree trunks, force pushing a small army of clone troopers + Anakin, choking out & killing a group of pirates with a mere gesture right after awakening from unconsciousness, and, in a fit of rage, she overpowered both Skywalker and Kenobi despite their efforts to break free. Hell, as a mere child, she force hurled the assassin who killed her jedi master higher than some buildings, IIRC. The fact that Dooku can casually overpower a force user that weilds such raw power, is beyond anything Revan has done with TK.

Unlike Ventress, Revan has consistently been portrayed as one of the most powerful beings to ever live, so cool story bro. But please, keep bringing up invalid, mediocre and circumstantial feats, I can always use a chuckle. 👆

Also lol, "mere gesture"? That was no mere gesture. I know you're mad but don't stoop to lying, assh*le. 😬

Nox's power utterly eclipses Ventress', even by the time she fought Revan and Revan was able to toss her around as well as the Warrior, Hunter and Agent.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The only thing you have proven is that they were bigger individually than the obelisks were individually; not that they weigh more. I'm also assuming that the longer the battle lasts, the more Revan dropped, which would depend on how good the player is and how quickly he finishes the fight, correct? Once again, very little is known about the feat, other than he dropped some meteors.

Furthermore, Dooku lifted them all at once, very easily.

Big rocks weigh more than little rocks, derp. Plus meteors are frequently made up of metal as well as rock.

Your assumption is wrong btw. Revan does the attack for a set amount of time before going back to conventional attacks, it doesn't matter how "good" you are to determine how long he does it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well Revan didn't throw them from what I seen. He dropped them one at a time, maybe two at a time at most. However, he didn't drop more than a dozen at a time. Dooku casually lifting a dozen of heavy objects high in the air, against the force of gravity is more impressive.

No man, he threw them. He ripped them out of the thing that was holding them up and tossed them at the ground at blinding speed. The force needed to accelerate objects as large and undoubtedly heavy as those is huge, as FreshestSlice said. And as I said, it takes far more force to throw an object than it does to just lift it. And it would have to be more than two at a time imo. Which doesn't matter since throwing them one after the other would still take the same amount of power, surely. Dooku lifting those obalisks that undoubtedly weigh less than the meteors doesn't compare.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ok, they're powerful so that means their TK are greater than Ventress', who has directly overpowered both Anakin and Obi Wan at the same time. Of course you could argue it was a one off feat due to her rage enhanced state, while I can't say that Revan force pushing two force users was under the same circumstance, because, once again, we don't know the circumstance surrounding that feat, other than he does it, do we?

Also, does Revan directly grip them then throw them around, or did he just use a powerful force push to knock them off balance (which is different than directly overpowering them the way Dooku does Ventress), because Ventress has done that to Anakin several times?

I didn't say their TK was greater than Ventresses by there's two of them. No he doesn't do it under rage. Ventress choking them proves nothing for Dooku since that's a feat even he can't do. If she was in such a state against him he wouldn't dominate her with TK, right?

He Force Pulls the entire team close to him them unleashes a Force Storm on the area. And he uses a Force Wave to push everyone away from him at times too.

Probably not going to reply again unless you seriously write a hell of a lot less. This debate isn't worth the effort.

@Nephthys

Next I destroy you.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Next I destroy you.

I see you are unable to address his accusations of double standards, Neph.

Gotta hand S66 the victory here.

I already addressed it in my discussion with you. I didn't even read his childish rants when I was replying.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I see you are unable to address his accusations of double standards, Neph.

Gotta hand S66 the victory here.

Lol

frfr

He didn't even properly address many of my points. It was mostly "nuh uh, I disagree, and in my opinion!"

Originally posted by Nephthys
I already addressed it in my discussion with you. I didn't even read his childish rants when I was replying.

Oh, stop. You read it all.

Also, Probably won't reply until Monday, but based on your response and the fact that you want to end it there, shows that you know I'm the one who has this argument in the bag.

No joke, I'm seriously kicking your ass and everyone can see it. I'm only wanting it to end because it went from a two sentence opinion on the fight to a 3 reply long slog. I don't give a shit about your opinion enough to spent the time needed to reply to another response as long as the one I did today and I feel I've proven my point already. I'm not the one make purposefully shitty arguments to try to annoy you.

No joke, I'm seriously kicking your ass and everyone can see it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No joke, I'm seriously kicking your ass and everyone can see it. I'm only wanting it to end because it went from a two sentence opinion on the fight to a 3 reply long slog. I don't give a shit about your opinion enough to spent the time needed to reply to another response as long as the one I did today and I feel I've proven my point already. I'm not the one make purposefully shitty arguments to try to annoy you.

Who sees it? Ant and LeGenD? Lol

You haven't proven anything other than you have an opinion, and what you want to believe. And until you can acknowledge your use of double standards and change your style of debating, then I will continue to do the same, and in doing so, I will reduce characters like Vitiate to levels lower than Dooku. Trust me, I can.